Top 7-10% rules great for neighbor state universities.

32,313 Views | 124 Replies | Last: 1 yr ago by GoAgs92
aggie93
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double b said:

Unfortunately, your nephew won't receive anything for being in the top 5%. Those students who are only in the top 1-2% of their class will receive merit-based scholarships unless they're National Merit.
Unless you are National Merit you have to really scrape for small scholarships if you aren't needs based or a minority. $1k here, $3k there. That's assuming you are Top 5% and 1450 SAT, if you aren't that good luck.

My youngest is a very strong student and I'm having him put more emphasis on his PSAT than his SAT. If he can get National Merit he should be set from what I can see looking at scholarships available, it's the only way to get real money for a lot of kids at a school like A&M.
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SwissAgg
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My nephew is in the top percentage of his class exactly I don't know, but he is in the top percentiles,

He did well on the PSAT, but the final rankings very close.
TXTransplant
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My son is a senior. Top 10% (roughly top 8, to be precise) and a 31 on the ACT.

He will probably be going to Mississippi State. His dad and I are alumni, so out of state tuition is waived. With his ACT score, he automatically gets the second highest scholarship they offer (not quite a full). He wants to do engineering, so there will be other major-specific scholarships that he can apply for that will likely push him to a full scholarship.

Arkansas and Ole Miss offer similar incentives. Fact of the matter is, these small states just don't have the population to fill the schools, so they actively recruit out of state. Applicants just don't have to worry about diversity quotas.

And if you're majoring in engineering, if you're at an ABET accredited school with an active alumni/corporate recruiting base, the degrees are pretty much all equal.

He's also applying to Auburn and TAMU, but we aren't wasting time with UT. MSU and Auburn are about as far away as TX Tech and Oklahoma, but he will be closer to his dad at MSU and AU.

One of the biggest factors for us is that, even if you get into TAMU and UT, you might not get into your major. And if you want to switch majors (say go from chemical to mechanical engineering), that might not be possible either. He's known kids who have wound up transferring out of UT because they weren't happy with their major but they weren't able to switch.

I don't want him to have the stress of having to stay in a major he doesn't like. And honestly, the size of TAMU has become a turn-off. AU and MSU are in the 25k-30k range for enrollment, which is a big difference.
HECUBUS
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Out of state schools offer so much more. Congratulations. Texas schools are like everything else in Texas. Too many people want to be there/here.

Very few of the people I work with attended a Texas school. Times have changed.
94AGBQ
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This is an interesting thread. My oldest just graduated from a 5a high school in the Austin area (hays Cisd Buda Johnson hs). He was a good student but not great. 3.5 gpa 23rd percentile for class rank, 1100 sat. He dreamed of going to A&M his whole life. There was no way he was getting in with those numbers. They are almost identical to my numbers when I was admitted to A&M.

Fortunately A&M doesn't offer his major. He ended up deciding between Bama and Michigan. Michigan gave him a $31000/yr scholarship to attend. It was a no brainer at that point. But this is a kid that always dreamed of being an Aggie.

Now his brother is the one that will be interesting. He also is dead set on being an Aggie. He's a junior this year. 5th in his class, gpa is a 4.4 right now. We'll see how sat goes this year but he had over 1350 on the psat. I'm sure he'll be auto accepted to A&M but I'll probably end up spending a couple grand more per year to put him through than his brother at the university of Michigan. That's ridiculous.
TriAg2010
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BoDog said:

TriAg2010 said:

It's not a new trend. This has been going on since at least the early/mid-2000s.

I fail to see this as a problem. For kids in the 10-25% percent of their class, I agree with the characterization that they as "good" students not "great" students. OU or Ark are appropriate academic fits. It seems like the vast majority all come back and settle in TX, so it's not like it's causing a brain drain in any practical sense.
Just a hunch that the 10-25% you speak of will be very high earners (well rounded) and give $$$ back to their respected university both towards academics and athletics. I think we will no doubt see those repercussions.


We're 20 years into this trend. Surely we could quantify this by now? Subjectively, the DFW suburbs are full of OU and Arky lawn decorations and vanity plates because they come back.
BoDog
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94AGBQ said:

This is an interesting thread. My oldest just graduated from a 5a high school in the Austin area (hays Cisd Buda Johnson hs). He was a good student but not great. 3.5 gpa 23rd percentile for class rank, 1100 sat. He dreamed of going to A&M his whole life. There was no way he was getting in with those numbers. They are almost identical to my numbers when I was admitted to A&M.

Fortunately A&M doesn't offer his major. He ended up deciding between Bama and Michigan. Michigan gave him a $31000/yr scholarship to attend. It was a no brainer at that point. But this is a kid that always dreamed of being an Aggie.

Now his brother is the one that will be interesting. He also is dead set on being an Aggie. He's a junior this year. 5th in his class, gpa is a 4.4 right now. We'll see how sat goes this year but he had over 1350 on the psat. I'm sure he'll be auto accepted to A&M but I'll probably end up spending a couple grand more per year to put him through than his brother at the university of Michigan. That's ridiculous.

Your son not only got into Michigan but also received a 31k scholarship. Dont get me wrong, with those credentials I am very happy for him (and you) but Michigan has serious academics and I have no clue how he even got in much less got the scholarship. Gives me hope for my youngest.
94AGBQ
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It's easier to get into Michigan when you are being recruited as a musician for their school of music theater and dance. It's much more like being recruited for athletics. He is a very good French horn player. He never would have been accepted academically otherwise. However, every other university that recruited him accepted him academically first before he auditioned. (Alabama, north Texas, Houston).

My father and brother are both Michigan alumni. Once he was accepted to the university and given the scholarship money it was a no brainer. By comparison Houston and Bama both offered roughly $7500 per year.
Aggie_Swag18
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It's amazing to me how the same argument keeps coming up. Texas A&M serves the entire state, not just those who went to high schools that people who live a suburban lifestyle deem to be worthy. When I was applying to A&M (back in 2013) I remember seeing the same sentiment on message boards that the top 10% rule was causing a mass rejection of qualified students who were not in the top 10% in favor of unqualified students. I believe they changed it since then, but at the time if you were top 25% and had above a 1300 (if I remember correctly, it might have been a little higher) on combined reading and math you also qualified as an auto admit. I still don't understand how if their kids couldn't meet that requirement that the parents would think they were just so much smarter than the top 10% at these "less competitive high schools" that it was an affront to God that they didn't get in. The funniest part of it was it was mostly parents who were upset about it, not the kids.

I went to one of those "less competitive" high schools and was a top 10% auto admit, and every year we went to the State UIL Academic meet and did just as well and better than all those kids from the "competitive" schools. If we had gone to one of those large "competitive" schools our team would have won a State Championship, but we were a 1A school so we got second. Same test word for word, same scoring system, but 1A was more competitive than the larger classifications that year. So when I hear about about these schools are just loaded with talent that is vastly more qualified than those who were top 10% I'm going to call bull. There might be a few out there that are, but not many. Certainly not enough to justify removing the top 10% rule. While it's anecdotal, kids from my class and the classes several years behind and ahead of mine had people going to A&M and Texas for degrees in business, engineering (I was one of the people who went for engineering), and pre-med/BIMS. All of us graduated in the majors we went into, and it wasn't like it took us extra long to do so. Just about everyone was 4 years. My brother did Computer Science at Texas in 3.5 years.

There's no denying that schools in suburban and wealthy areas have better resources and can afford to have specialized prep, but as I said at the beginning Texas A&M and other public schools in Texas do not just exist to serve the wealthy and those who had better opportunities laid out for them because they went to the "right schools". The kid who went to a rural high school or a poor high school in the city and got in under the top 10% rule wasn't some slacker, they got there off their own work while often having far fewer resources to support them. Some won't work out, just like some of those 11-25% from "competitive" high schools won't work out. At the same time there are going to be qualified students who get rejected, just as there would be qualified students who get rejected if we didn't have the top 10% rule. There are simply not enough spots to go around. The difference is the top 10% rule provides opportunities for those students who didn't have everything laid out for them because of what school they went to.

Finally, to the parents who are so upset that their kids didn't get into A&M because they were not top 10%, if they are truly so much more qualified than the auto admits that there is no question of who is the better student then they should have no trouble getting into private schools like Rice, Stanford, or top tier out of state schools. Even then I have never heard of someone getting a 1500+ on an SAT with a resume padded with academic extracurriculars and achievements that didn't get in to A&M because they weren't top 10%.
Prexys Moon
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Quote:

When I was applying to A&M (back in 2013) I remember seeing the same sentiment on message boards that the top 10% rule was causing a mass rejection of qualified students who were not in the top 10% in favor of unqualified students. I believe they changed it since then, but at the time if you were top 25% and had above a 1300 (if I remember correctly, it might have been a little higher) on combined reading and math you also qualified as an auto admit. I still don't understand how if their kids couldn't meet that requirement that the parents would think they were just so much smarter than the top 10% at these "less competitive high schools" that it was an affront to God that they didn't get in. The funniest part of it was it was mostly parents who were upset about it, not the kids.
It was called "academic admit" and it was top 25 percent and a 1350 on SAT. My son got in with it , in the last year they did it, the class entering fall 2020. Obviously I'm biased but I think it was a great option. Making top 10 is a tough go at many schools, but it gave applicants another way to be auto. They stopped doing it because between top 10 and academic, there weren't many spots left.

I don't understand why the don't attach an SAT minimum to top 10. Even just something reasonable like 1200 or 1250 would thin that down. And if a kid couldn't make that minimum, he/she probably shouldn't be auto. But that's the way it is.

aggiepaintrain
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Getting in through Gateway is what the dumb dumb local kids do and it seems like a totally unfair option.
DannyDuberstein
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Agree about a minimum Top 10 SAT. Guarantee admission to a system school regardless of SAT, but X is needed for CS (but leave an ability to xfer to CS). Don't have to make it a high bar by any means, but I think it could be useful for thinning out those that are much more likely to struggle. My sister was one of those a long time ago. Top of her small class, bombed SAT but it didn't matter. Washed out of A&M in one year. She had simply not been prepared by the district we attended. She was 8 years older than me, so my parents learned and moved us/me to a good district. I eventually finished in the top 5% of my much larger class, scored 1400, then graduated from A&M with a 4.0

It ultimately took her 12 years to eventually get a degree (a few stops and restarts). That initial unprepared wash-out had a major derailing impact
whytho987654
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The top 10% rule is awful. I noticed the vast majority of kids from nonrigorous high schools (we all know what I'm talking about), got their behinds handed to them, while those from the competitive/rigorous high schools did just fine and excelled at a&m. Being in the top 25% from let's say Allen is more impressive than being the top dog at a rural school in the middle of nowhere.
aggie93
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Aggie_Swag18 said:

It's amazing to me how the same argument keeps coming up. Texas A&M serves the entire state, not just those who went to high schools that people who live a suburban lifestyle deem to be worthy. When I was applying to A&M (back in 2013) I remember seeing the same sentiment on message boards that the top 10% rule was causing a mass rejection of qualified students who were not in the top 10% in favor of unqualified students. I believe they changed it since then, but at the time if you were top 25% and had above a 1300 (if I remember correctly, it might have been a little higher) on combined reading and math you also qualified as an auto admit. I still don't understand how if their kids couldn't meet that requirement that the parents would think they were just so much smarter than the top 10% at these "less competitive high schools" that it was an affront to God that they didn't get in. The funniest part of it was it was mostly parents who were upset about it, not the kids.

I went to one of those "less competitive" high schools and was a top 10% auto admit, and every year we went to the State UIL Academic meet and did just as well and better than all those kids from the "competitive" schools. If we had gone to one of those large "competitive" schools our team would have won a State Championship, but we were a 1A school so we got second. Same test word for word, same scoring system, but 1A was more competitive than the larger classifications that year. So when I hear about about these schools are just loaded with talent that is vastly more qualified than those who were top 10% I'm going to call bull. There might be a few out there that are, but not many. Certainly not enough to justify removing the top 10% rule. While it's anecdotal, kids from my class and the classes several years behind and ahead of mine had people going to A&M and Texas for degrees in business, engineering (I was one of the people who went for engineering), and pre-med/BIMS. All of us graduated in the majors we went into, and it wasn't like it took us extra long to do so. Just about everyone was 4 years. My brother did Computer Science at Texas in 3.5 years.

There's no denying that schools in suburban and wealthy areas have better resources and can afford to have specialized prep, but as I said at the beginning Texas A&M and other public schools in Texas do not just exist to serve the wealthy and those who had better opportunities laid out for them because they went to the "right schools". The kid who went to a rural high school or a poor high school in the city and got in under the top 10% rule wasn't some slacker, they got there off their own work while often having far fewer resources to support them. Some won't work out, just like some of those 11-25% from "competitive" high schools won't work out. At the same time there are going to be qualified students who get rejected, just as there would be qualified students who get rejected if we didn't have the top 10% rule. There are simply not enough spots to go around. The difference is the top 10% rule provides opportunities for those students who didn't have everything laid out for them because of what school they went to.

Finally, to the parents who are so upset that their kids didn't get into A&M because they were not top 10%, if they are truly so much more qualified than the auto admits that there is no question of who is the better student then they should have no trouble getting into private schools like Rice, Stanford, or top tier out of state schools. Even then I have never heard of someone getting a 1500+ on an SAT with a resume padded with academic extracurriculars and achievements that didn't get in to A&M because they weren't top 10%.
Kudos to you and your family but the reality is you are the exception and not the rule. Math is math and academics are academics. The key should be that you need to look at each student in terms of who is most likely to be successful as the primary concern. It shouldn't matter if you are rich or poor, that really has minimal bearing. Parents are actually far more important and you can have crappy parents that are rich and amazing parents that are poor. My Dad was the youngest of 10 kids on the farm in the Panhandle with barely a pot to piss but a lot of love and discipline and he not only got into A&M but was a Yell Leader and Class Agent.

Still, a kid who goes to a top HS that has alternate day class schedules, a heavy AP/Dual Credit curriculum making them often a Sophomore in Hours Day 1, and that has had extensive study habit preparation drilled into them from Middle School and has 90% of their class going on to college is going to have a high likelihood of success. The Top 10% from those schools typically can go just about anywhere, the Top 5% are sometimes going Ivy or to Stanford/Rice type schools or they are getting serious scholarship money. The Top 25% from those schools have strong options and usually scholarships waiting as well. The next 25% often aren't far behind. A kid in that category probably got a handful of B's and still likely has 15 hours of college credit by graduation with a solid SAT score.

Compare that to a kid that graduated Top 10% from a 3000 student HS in the Valley or in a bad part of an urban area where the school is poor performing and maybe 20% of the students are considered college ready.and it isn't a fair fight. It's not the 2nd kids fault but the reality is you can't just make up for all that preparation and circumstances by simply pretending like it doesn't matter. They have to overcome an awful lot and the reality is many won't be able to but if they went to a school that fit their qualifications better they would. Many also do make it but often end up getting Liberal Arts Degrees and a lot of debt with a degree they have trouble getting a job with.

Your example btw is a small rural school and my guess is you probably had 2 supportive parents and teachers that worked hard to get you prepared. Small school kids actually tend to do better at A&M though it isn't easy. My wife was 2nd in her Class from a 2A HS in West Texas and A&M was a monster adjustment for her after being so far ahead of her class where only a handful of kids were going to college.

Other states don't use a Top 10% rule btw, especially large states. Georgia doesn't. Florida doesn't. California will let you in the UC System but if you want to get into Berkeley or UCLA. It was a very crude solution they came up with when the State was half it's size and it needs to go.
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Prexys Moon
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Again, having an SAT minimum for top 10 admits would solve this problem.
aggie93
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Prexys Moon said:

Again, having an SAT minimum for top 10 admits would solve this problem.
That's certainly one solution and a good step in the right direction.
"The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help."

Ronald Reagan
GoAgs92
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Does A&M allow so many transfers due to freshman dropping out or what?
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Houstonag
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Grandson just got his acceptance letter from TAMU and is a Senior now in high school in a Dallas suburb. He applied in August and no place else although he received letters from many. A good SAT score and top 2% in a class of 800. His friend who was in top 11% got in also. Both are outstanding kids.

I read my grandson's essay and wow, it was a difference maker. The essay is important.
TXTransplant
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My son got accepted to TAMU last week, too. He applied the day it opened. He had written an essay for English last year and submitted some version of that. He didn't ask me to read it.

Haven't heard from the college of engineering, yet.
Blackstreet
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I'm assuming your son was top 10 percent?
TXTransplant
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Yes, in a previous post at the top of the page I said he is about top 8% and has a 31 on the ACT. His superscore is actually a 32.
SwissAgg
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Cograertulats Welfars
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Just visited MS State based on recommendations of some friends whose kids went there. Not as many Texas kids there as Ole Miss. Very nice people. Great culture. It reminded me a lot of A&M back in the day. They will throw a lot of scholarship money at you. Engineering facilities do not compare to A&M. Job opportunities seem much more regional. Overall I had a very positive impression of the place.
TXTransplant
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Tons of scholarships, especially for engineering. I was in-state back in the day and had everything paid for. My scholarships exceeded the cost of tuition and housing so I got a refund check from the school each semester.

My son is sitting on about $24k+ in scholarships right now, just based on his ACT, GPA, my alumni status, and Eagle Scout. That's out of about $36k total for out of state tuition and fees. I expect he will get some additional engineering scholarships that will bump it up.

Chemical engineering probably has the nicest building, thanks to a very generous alum. Quite a few major players in chemical engineering recruit there (CVX, XOM, Dow). I'm not sure about the rest of the programs.
Its Texas Aggies, dammit
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TXTransplant said:

Tons of scholarships, especially for engineering. I was in-state back in the day and had everything paid for. My scholarships exceeded the cost of tuition and housing so I got a refund check from the school each semester.

My son is sitting on about $24k+ in scholarships right now, just based on his ACT, GPA, my alumni status, and Eagle Scout. That's out of about $36k total for out of state tuition and fees. I expect he will get some additional engineering scholarships that will bump it up.

Chemical engineering probably has the nicest building, thanks to a very generous alum. Quite a few major players in chemical engineering recruit there (CVX, XOM, Dow). I'm not sure about the rest of the programs.
We are in a similar position. One other thing we are working through relative, for example, to A&M and Auburn is recruiting and job opportunities coming out of school, especially for a Texas kid who will likely not want to stay in Mississippi or Alabama after graduation.
AggieEP
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Just to add my own personal experience, I found that the top 10% rule was particularly brutal on kids who change high schools. I started high school in Kansas on a 4.0 GPA scale where honors classes didn't mean you could have a GPA above the scale. My family moved to Texas and I entered an extremely competitive high school. I had a 3.9 GPA in Kansas, but my new high school in Texas computed on a 100 point scale with honors classes counting as 110. They calculated my 3.9 from Kansas as a 95 on their scale, and because of that I never had a chance. I raised it to a 102 by the time I graduated and still finished only in the top 15%. Kids in my high school would eschew playing sports doing band etc. just to find a way to stack more honors classes and pump up that GPA. It was really counterproductive to producing well rounded kids.

To me it's a rule that is supposed to make things fair and clear, but it doesn't adjust really well to the actually realities of life. I was lucky that my SAT scores got me in to A&M at the time, but I came away thinking that the system just wasn't really able to serve as any sort of tool to get the best students into A&M. As mentioned, one of those realities is that not all high schools are equal.
500,000ags
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Where is the data that kids from small schools don't fair well at A&M? You keep mentioning your wife, and that's not data, that's anecdotal. I can literally name 15-20 kids that did more than fine.
aggie93
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500,000ags said:

Where is the data that kids from small schools don't fair well at A&M? You keep mentioning your wife, and that's not data, that's anecdotal. I can literally name 15-20 kids that did more than fine.
As I mentioned, small school kids tend to do ok at A&M from my experience because they are such a strong cultural fit and many come from 2 parent households with strong support. The kids having issues tend to be those who go to very poor and very large HS's in the Valley or in urban areas where the schools barely meet standards (or don't) and have only 20% or so (sometimes less) of grads even considered "college ready". You end up with a class of 800 with 80 as auto admits to A&M and A&M is often falling all over itself offering scholarship money to them because they are almost always low income and most are first gen. Some of those kids will do great but many are going to get absolutely hammered when they hit some Freshman classes at A&M.

If you are looking for hard data I don't know how to find it, A&M certainly isn't publicizing it as it reflects poorly on the school and it goes against the grain on everything they push. Much easier to find ways to push those kids to easier majors that are less likely to end up with a good job when they graduate or to just quietly watch them fail. I can just speak to what I have consistently seen at A&M.

BTW, my eldest son got into Galveston (later offered System Admit to CS) and was just outside the Top 50% at his excellent Suburban HS because he had the audacity to get a few B's and to not take all AP Classes but rather Dual Credit (entered with 15 hours). He's taking 17 hours as a first semester Freshman and is on track for a 4.0. He sees the same thing in terms of the kids who are struggling vs those who are flourishing. He wasn't one of the "smart kids" in HS but even among his friends virtually all of them are crushing it grade wise and consistently think college is easier than HS.

The problem is this idea that you can make up for 12 years of educational quality by just putting them all together with kids that have been in strong college prep going back to Elementary School where they stress study habits from the beginning. Some kids absolutely can swim when thrown in the deep water but the odds are against them, especially when they are up against kids with so much more prep, are simply less. It's lunacy to penalize better prepared kids out of a desire for social justice.

As I said though it's very hard to find data because schools don't want to emphasize it. No one wants to show that minorities especially are doing poorly at A&M and the bad HS's tend to be heavily minority. The problem isn't skin color at all btw, it is parental involvement. If you have involved parents the odds or academic success are higher than pretty much any other factor. Life isn't fair but denying reality doesn't help.

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12Power
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Interesting. Michigan is as hard to get into than tu. and got 31k/year?? Michigan and Bama are not on the same level. Good choice.
Its Texas Aggies, dammit
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500,000ags said:

Where is the data that kids from small schools don't fair well at A&M? You keep mentioning your wife, and that's not data, that's anecdotal. I can literally name 15-20 kids that did more than fine.


Are 15-20 data or are they a collection of anecdotes?
500,000ags
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Most people understand my implication that 93's data points were just as or even more anecdotal than my anecdotal evidence.
Its Texas Aggies, dammit
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Its Texas Aggies, dammit
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We just got back from Auburn. We were warned that we would love it. We did. It's what I wish A&M still was. The culture was great. The people were warm, helpful, and at the same time, impressive.

The engineering school was modern and student-focused. Current engineering enrollment is ~6k. Total enrollment is less than 30k, which they told us is a cap they will not exceed. (No 25 in 25 or ETAM, much less total enrollment approaching 80k.)

Lots of focus on helping students succeed academically and thrive personally. The only downsides I see are the distance from home and the likelihood of my kid not coming back to Texas after graduation.

As we were leaving, my kid said "A&M cares about the university. Auburn cares about the students." That pretty much sums it up. It looks like we will be able to get enough scholarship money to make it the same price as A&M or a little less. If the money is anywhere close, it will be hard to turn Auburn down.
Its Texas Aggies, dammit
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500,000ags said:

Most people understand my implication that 93's data points were just as or even more anecdotal than my anecdotal evidence.


Good point. I'm a small-town kid who did Ok for myself as well.
redcrayon
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Has anyone else noticed that almost everyone here claims their kid goes to/went to an "excellent large suburban high school?" It's time to realize that some of these schools are actually just average to above average and the vast majority of kids who graduate from there are the same. Going to large suburban high schools isn't special and doesn't guarantee that your kid is getting an education that much better than the kids at smaller high schools. And from the looks of it, grade inflation is rampant at these "competitive" high schools.
 
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