What makes a fellow countryman

4,402 Views | 77 Replies | Last: 6 days ago by AggieVictor10
Zobel
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AG
Seems to be some confusion over this. Everyone is a Schroedinger's American, or an American who wants to be, or its defined by immigration laws, or living here, or going to a football game wearing a cowboy hat.

I think we can use a more scientific first principles method of inquiry - and go to the master for that, Aristotle. He answered this question cleanly hundreds of years ago in his book Politics. In Book 3 he writes that the state is...
Quote:

a community of families and aggregations of families in well-being, for the sake of a perfect and self-sufficing life. Such a community can only be established among those who live in the same place and intermarry. Hence arise in cities family connections, brotherhoods, sacrificial rites*, amusements which draw men together. But these are created by friendship, for the will to live together is friendship. The end of the state is the good life, and these are the means towards it. And the state is the union of families and villages in a perfect and self-sufficing life, by which we mean a happy and honorable life.

The words bolded above for are hard to directly translate. Family connections (kedaiai) are specifically ties of affinity created through marriage or intermarriage (vs just blood relationship). A brotherhood (phratry) was a civic and religious kinship tradition, and was a subdivision of tribal affiliation that had multiple clan groups. This was an actual social institution. So it would kind of be like saying immediate family connections and extended family relations. And sacrifice rites there (thysai) is shared cultic or religious sacrifices, which were a part of both social and professional life. That sentence as a whole is something close to "ties from intermarriage, organized kinship associations, common religious observances, and shared social life."

So to me, to have a coherent state we would need all of those things. Beginning with friendship, having a shared vision of the Good (a philosophical commonality, meaning a shared moral framework), and then family units forming real, durable social bonds and institutional connections (like marriage, worship, social life) is how a state is formed.

I think this is useful because its actually descriptive and testable. Has the group formed bonds of marriage? Have they joined in social institutions? Do they participate in community worship? Do they participate in society?

Immigration law can't make any of those things happen. It also explains why groups who immigrated here a time ago have become part of our society, and why some groups simply cannot (e.g., Muslims who wish to practice Sharia law).

The people who have done these things are my countrymen.
Pichael Thompson
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YouBet
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AG
Some of this can't scale in the modern era, however this one thing here is the crux of the matter for me in 2026. And we no longer have it here:

Quote:

having a shared vision of the Good (a philosophical commonality, meaning a shared moral framework)


What morals the left clings to are warped concepts based on miseducation and toxic empathy.

Furthermore, we don't even have a shared truth or common set of facts in this country now, which you could argue should be its own requirement in this conversation unless you just want to lump it inside a shared moral framework.
Zobel
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AG
Yes. I think we should consider that a problem to be solved. You're just saying we have a bad foundation for coherence.
Bull Meachem
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1. People who believe the ideas of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution are the most important ideas we should believe in.
2. Take care of your family and your community without limiting the opportunities for others.
AgGrad99
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AG

Quote:

But these are created by friendship, for the will to live together is friendship.

That is the crux of the issue right now.

My grandmother told me stories of trials her family faced, when they immigrated here. They were mortified if they were viewed as immigrants, and wanted nothign more than to be seen as AMERICAN. They worked their butts off, and became productive members of our society. They learned the language, and actively tried to sound 'American', and lose their accents. They wanted to be American, and be part of the community.

Far too many groups come to America now, and refuse to assimilate. They do not have a 'will to live together'.

They isolate, and demand everyone else bend to their needs, rather than the other way around.
YouBet
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AG
Zobel said:

Yes. I think we should consider that a problem to be solved. You're just saying we have a bad foundation for coherence.

Not sure I agree with that unless you are saying we have polluted / degraded the foundation we already had?

One example: we have a low IQ moron currently on the Supreme Court who can't define what a woman is. It's literally an anti-reality, anti-truth position by her.

If we can't agree on the objective reality of what constitutes a man or woman, then we can't agree on anything.
pagerman @ work
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AG
YouBet said:

Some of this can't scale in the modern era, however this one thing here is the crux of the matter for me in 2026. And we no longer have it here:

Quote:

having a shared vision of the Good (a philosophical commonality, meaning a shared moral framework)


What morals the left clings to are warped concepts based on miseducation and toxic empathy.

Furthermore, we don't even have a shared truth or common set of facts in this country now, which you could argue should be its own requirement in this conversation unless you just want to lump it inside a shared moral framework.

If you are thinking of "the Good" as some sort of morality or in a religious sense you are thinking incorrectly.
“Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy. It's inherent virtue is the equal sharing of miseries." - Winston Churchill
YouBet
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AG
pagerman @ work said:

YouBet said:

Some of this can't scale in the modern era, however this one thing here is the crux of the matter for me in 2026. And we no longer have it here:

Quote:

having a shared vision of the Good (a philosophical commonality, meaning a shared moral framework)


What morals the left clings to are warped concepts based on miseducation and toxic empathy.

Furthermore, we don't even have a shared truth or common set of facts in this country now, which you could argue should be its own requirement in this conversation unless you just want to lump it inside a shared moral framework.

If you are thinking of "the Good" as some sort of morality or in a religious sense you are thinking incorrectly.

Ok?
Ellis Wyatt
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AgGrad99 said:


Quote:

But these are created by friendship, for the will to live together is friendship.

That is the crux of the issue right now.

My grandmother told me stories of trials her family faced, when they immigrated here. They were mortified if they were viewed as immigrants, and wanted nothign more than to be seen as AMERICAN. They worked their butts off, and became productive members of our society. They learned the language, and actively tried to sound 'American', and lose their accents. They wanted to be American, and be part of the community..
And libs have deliberately changed that. We are no longer the melting pot we were. We're the salad bowl and we do not have shared goals and vision. The country is paying the price.

100 years ago, immigrants had their unique pockets of subculture, but we had a shared American culture. Democrats have demo zones that and imported people who want no part of that.
Zobel
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AG
I completely disagree. The Good is absolutely religious or philosophical. All laws are downstream of an understanding of it. The Good is the end toward which all the means of the state are pointed.
texagbeliever
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pagerman @ work said:

YouBet said:

Some of this can't scale in the modern era, however this one thing here is the crux of the matter for me in 2026. And we no longer have it here:

Quote:

having a shared vision of the Good (a philosophical commonality, meaning a shared moral framework)


What morals the left clings to are warped concepts based on miseducation and toxic empathy.

Furthermore, we don't even have a shared truth or common set of facts in this country now, which you could argue should be its own requirement in this conversation unless you just want to lump it inside a shared moral framework.

If you are thinking of "the Good" as some sort of morality or in a religious sense you are thinking incorrectly.

How does one come to define "the good" without a religious element?
Zobel
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AG
Bull Meachem said:

1. People who believe the ideas of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution are the most important ideas we should believe in.
2. Take care of your family and your community without limiting the opportunities for others.

Are legal Somali immigrants in Minnesota your countrymen, then? And their children who are citizens?
pagerman @ work
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AG
texagbeliever said:

pagerman @ work said:

YouBet said:

Some of this can't scale in the modern era, however this one thing here is the crux of the matter for me in 2026. And we no longer have it here:

Quote:

having a shared vision of the Good (a philosophical commonality, meaning a shared moral framework)


What morals the left clings to are warped concepts based on miseducation and toxic empathy.

Furthermore, we don't even have a shared truth or common set of facts in this country now, which you could argue should be its own requirement in this conversation unless you just want to lump it inside a shared moral framework.

If you are thinking of "the Good" as some sort of morality or in a religious sense you are thinking incorrectly.

How does one come to define "the good" without a religious element?

Do you believe Aristotle had a developed sense of morality derived from religious belief, much less Judeo-Christian religious beliefs?
“Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy. It's inherent virtue is the equal sharing of miseries." - Winston Churchill
Zobel
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AG
He absolutely had a developed sense of morality derived from religious belief. It was not Christian belief.
Windy City Ag
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AG
Quote:

How does one come to define "the good" without a religious element?

It is called secular morality and the concept has been around a very long time.

AGC
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AG
YouBet said:

Some of this can't scale in the modern era, however this one thing here is the crux of the matter for me in 2026. And we no longer have it here:

Quote:

having a shared vision of the Good (a philosophical commonality, meaning a shared moral framework)


What morals the left clings to are warped concepts based on miseducation and toxic empathy.

Furthermore, we don't even have a shared truth or common set of facts in this country now, which you could argue should be its own requirement in this conversation unless you just want to lump it inside a shared moral framework.


I think it can scale, but it requires a view of immigration that centers the nation over the immigrant. They need to be isolated from their own tribes, otherwise they'll never integrate. Chain migration also must be undone.
Zobel
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AG
Explicit and self-conscious secular morality is newer than our nation, the concept dates to the 1850s.
YouBet
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AG
pagerman @ work said:

texagbeliever said:

pagerman @ work said:

YouBet said:

Some of this can't scale in the modern era, however this one thing here is the crux of the matter for me in 2026. And we no longer have it here:

Quote:

having a shared vision of the Good (a philosophical commonality, meaning a shared moral framework)


What morals the left clings to are warped concepts based on miseducation and toxic empathy.

Furthermore, we don't even have a shared truth or common set of facts in this country now, which you could argue should be its own requirement in this conversation unless you just want to lump it inside a shared moral framework.

If you are thinking of "the Good" as some sort of morality or in a religious sense you are thinking incorrectly.

How does one come to define "the good" without a religious element?

Do you believe Aristotle had a developed sense of morality derived from religious belief, much less Judeo-Christian religious beliefs?

I'm taking what you wrote literally which maybe you didn't mean, but if "Good" is not based on morality OR religion, then what is it based on?
sam callahan
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A shared understanding and appreciation for the ideas, philosophies, and history that made this country great.

Which is way the left has continued to degrade our history and the education of history to our children.
Bull Meachem
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Zobel said:

Bull Meachem said:

1. People who believe the ideas of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution are the most important ideas we should believe in.
2. Take care of your family and your community without limiting the opportunities for others.

Are legal Somali immigrants in Minnesota your countrymen, then? And their children who are citizens?


Do they believe what I wrote? If so, yes. If anyone breaks the law, they should be punished.

Ask harder questions.
texagbeliever
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Zobel said:

Explicit and self-conscious secular morality is newer than our nation, the concept dates to the 1850s.


It would appear secular morality is a classic case of relative morality. Which means there is no defined good if you must first define the context that exists first.
Windy City Ag
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AG
Quote:

Explicit and self-conscious secular morality is newer than our nation, the concept dates to the 1850s.

The academic discussion of it is in our recognized Western circles may date back to the 1850 for this specific definition, but the concepts backing it go back thousands of years and pre-date what we think of us Christian morality.

And it is a funny point because George Holyoake, father of what we now think of as Secular Humanism, was actually convicted of blasphemy and sent to prison for making sarcastic remarks about the Church of England.

Common good indeed.


Zobel
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AG
I don't know if they do or don't. I'm asking for your opinion.

What's the point of telling people you have to support your countrymen, and we need to prefer our countrymen to others, if you can't actually know whether someone is your countryman or not?

For those folks in particular - are they your countrymen?
Zobel
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AG
Exactly.
Windy City Ag
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AG
Quote:

It would appear secular morality is a classic case of relative morality. Which means there is no defined good if you must first define the context that exists first.


This discussion should probably slide over to the Religion and Philosophy board (all four of those posters.)

It has been litigated there many times.
YouBet
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AG
Windy City Ag said:

Quote:

It would appear secular morality is a classic case of relative morality. Which means there is no defined good if you must first define the context that exists first.


This discussion should probably slide over to the Religion and Philosophy board (all four of those posters.)

It has been litigated there many times.

Windy City Ag
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AG


Sorry for even proposing it.
texagbeliever
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Windy City Ag said:

Quote:

It would appear secular morality is a classic case of relative morality. Which means there is no defined good if you must first define the context that exists first.


This discussion should probably slide over to the Religion and Philosophy board (all four of those posters.)

It has been litigated there many times.

Well in the context of f16 I choose to define it as I did. Please respect my secular morality choice. Thank you in advance.
Bull Meachem
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Zobel said:

I don't know if they do or don't. I'm asking for your opinion.

What's the point of telling people you have to support your countrymen, and we need to prefer our countrymen to others, if you can't actually know whether someone is your countryman or not?

For those folks in particular - are they your countrymen?


My criteria has been stated. You decide.
pagerman @ work
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AG
Zobel said:

He absolutely had a developed sense of morality derived from religious belief. It was not Christian belief.

Ok, what religious beliefs did he hold?
“Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy. It's inherent virtue is the equal sharing of miseries." - Winston Churchill
sam callahan
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Also want to add, either from a high trust culture or have the ability and desire to adapt to a high trust culture.
Zobel
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AG
Such an easy question but so hard to answer I guess.
Zobel
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AG
You seem to be working from a very modern assumption that religion and philosophy are distinct. In the ancient world they were not. The philosophy of Aristotle is closer to the philosophy of Moses in the Torah than it is to 20th century categories. Everything Aristotle wrote about ethics, morality, virtues, etc. were downstream of intangible beliefs about metaphysical realities and how they impose requirements or duties on human behavior - what word describes this better than religion?
sam callahan
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One easy part of the answer is that if they hate American values, they aren't my countryman.
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