CPT type rated in may 2026. He's going to...get blasted, to use a non-technical term.

This is an astonishing sequence of events and is consistent with the video seen earlier this week.

Key take aways:

1. Pilots had little experience on type.
2. Speed brake not deployed. This dumps lift and makes braking more effective.
3. Reversers not used.
4. A decision to… pic.twitter.com/T2X9f91YbU

— Scott Bateman MBE (@scottiebateman) September 9, 2026

BQ78 said:

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But he should have been smart enough to abort the landing. He is doing more than just talk on the radio. Based on the ATC release the experienced guy was making the landing.

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stress and fatigue can distract anyone...surgeons, ATC's, pilots, machine operators, umpires, etc.

I'm sure they'll be looking into that as a possibility too.

coconutED said:

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nortex97 said:

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He/crew also might face criminal/civil liability for the deaths/injuries the mile-long over-run created. 21 Air/Amazon won't jump in to pay their legal bills either, I bet, but no idea what the union/contract stipulates on that.

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A criminal prosecution would be unprecedented in the United States. No US commercial pilot (i.e. pt 121/135/91K) has ever been tried criminally for an accident. I'm not sure about civil lawsuits, however, but my guess is that that the pilots would be pretty low on the list of targets for the lawyers to go after, simply because Amazon and 21 air have far more money.

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Maybe if the pilot was drunk or deliberately sabotaged something. Unheard of otherwise.

torrid said:

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In my career as an armchair pilot, I have been completely comfortable saying there was nothing the UPS pilots in Kentucky could have done. I'm also completely comfortable saying the 21air pilots screwed this one up.

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Best post on this thread!

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Hell, they were unstable a couple miles out so BEFORE they even got to the airport. They were high and fast. You cannot trade altitude for slower speed. Look at their descent profit.

That was when they should have called the go around.

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No (kidding). If your landing is going to crap, and you're still 500 feet off the ground, don't force it, go around.

But they did and it will be interesting to find out was it arrogance, lack of training, intimidation or some other factor that caused them to force it.

Unless mitigating circumstances or emergency, a competent pilot recognizes an unstable approach and won't give a second thought to go around. Either there's a lot we don't know or the pilots were not qualified.

nortex97 said:

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If they'd at least deployed the thrust reversers they might not have hit that van, imho.

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TRs won't deploy without the tilt switch, and if they had already powered back up once, the auto speed brakes and TRs may no longer be armed.

A 76 LCA from the cargo carrier that lost the Amazon contract told me they have to boot a good number of the South Americans because the culture is to try to fix everything ("I got it papi" was common phraseology). The macho culture consists of never admitting you had to go around.

BQ78 said:

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The resume of the captain looked pretty good so hard to believe his lifetime in aviation signals a bad pilot but anyone can have a bad few moments like he obviously had.

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I agree we all have our bad days… I was just guessing, I know zero about these pilots. Jumping the shark .. lol

But based on what came out today,.. not sure these guys knew how to handle this event

CVR summary released.

1:42 before end of recording with flaps 20 called, the other pilot said they were too fast and repeated this throughout the rest of the recording with no verbal response from the other pilot.

Between 1,000-500ft AGL they got their first "sink rate". It sounded again after crossing 500ft.

Between 100 and 40ft they received the "too low terrain" callout four times.

7 seconds later a pilot called for flaps 30 (at 40ft AGL!!!)

15 seconds to end of recording pilot called for a go around.

5 seconds later aircraft departs pavement.



So much going wrong here. One pilot audibly heard saying they weren't stabilized repeatedly. Didn't press for a go around and the other pilot ignored these comments. GPWS going crazy under 1000ft. Calling to adjust the configuration at 40ft above the ground is insane and the fact that the other pilot didn't call for a go around at the time either is also terrible.

https://www.ntsb.gov/news/press-releases/Pages/NR20260909.aspx

CVR and FDR out. Looks like a a terrible approach with no assertive input from the other pilot. Just a **** show of incompetence based on this. Maybe there's more to come

It's hard to pick one out of all the options, but the calling for a config change at 40ft just blows my mind. Every airline I know of requires stable by 1000 and here they are barely above the ground messing with the flaps

Lack of training and reps.
Didn't know how to respond due to lack of training.
If sufficiently trained, the proper response should have been automatic.

bmks270 said:

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Lack of training and reps.
Didn't know how to respond due to lack of training.
If sufficiently trained, the proper response should have been automatic.

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By the time you have your ATP the response to what they were dealing with should be automatic even if they were 0 hours on the jet. Not stable, go around

HtownAg19 said:

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It's hard to pick one out of all the options, but the calling for a config change at 40ft just blows my mind. Every airline I know of requires stable by 1000 and here they are barely above the ground messing with the flaps

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Presumably he was calling for landing flaps 1000+ feet late. Ironically, they may have been ok landing with the existing flap setting and slamming on the brakes. Selecting landing flaps in the flare just made them float more, most likely

Good lord. The GPWS was even squawking at them (4x) just before touchdown. The fact that they were even hearing "too low, terrain" meant that the aircraft detected a problem with their landing configuration or speed. Reason enough for a go around right there, even though they should have initiated one much sooner in the approach.

The first thing that comes to mind is all the episodes I've seen where crew resource management is lacking...

Additionally... If the Captain was pilot flying...
You have a potential situation where the captain was either authoritarian OR the FO lacked the assertiveness to take control. I've seen episodes of Air disasters where culture (either airline or generally home societal) led to a cockpit situation where the Capt ruled the cockpit and the FO lacked any real authority

HtownAg19 said:

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CVR summary released.

1:42 before end of recording with flaps 20 called, the other pilot said they were too fast and repeated this throughout the rest of the recording with no verbal response from the other pilot.

Between 1,000-500ft AGL they got their first "sink rate". It sounded again after crossing 500ft.

Between 100 and 40ft they received the "too low terrain" callout four times.

7 seconds later a pilot called for flaps 30 (at 40ft AGL!!!)

15 seconds to end of recording pilot called for a go around.

5 seconds later aircraft departs pavement.



So much going wrong here. One pilot audibly heard saying they weren't stabilized repeatedly. Didn't press for a go around and the other pilot ignored these comments. GPWS going crazy under 1000ft. Calling to adjust the configuration at 40ft above the ground is insane and the fact that the other pilot didn't call for a go around at the time either is also terrible.

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Do we know who was who on the too fast versus no response?

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culture (either airline or generally home societal) led to a cockpit situation where the Capt ruled the cockpit and the FO lacked any real authority

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I think this is very true. Asian pilots are hesitant to challenge authority. I believe the chief pilot of the airline was at the controls in the We Tu Low, Bang Ding Ow, Ho Lee ***, crash. And Bang and Ho were loathe to challenge We.

My Favorite Pilot had a few Japanese students. Pretty good pilots, but it was very hard to get them to admit when they failed to understand. If they did not understand, they felt it showed a failing of the instructor, and they did not want the instructor to lose face by the student failing to understand.

"Do you understand?"
"Yes, m'am."

"Do you understand?"
"Yes, m'am."

"Do you understand?"
(Hangs head) "No, m'am."

Two systems that could have slowed an Amazon Air flight that crashed in Miami over the weekend weren't deployed before the plane careened off a runway and crashed into nearby vehicles, investigators said late Tuesday.

The National Transportation Safety Board didn't find evidence on one of the plane's black boxes that the Boeing 767's speed brakes, which are panels that create aerodynamic drag, or thrust reversers, which redirect air to lower the plane's speed while landing, were deployed, lead investigator Chihoon Shin said at a news briefing.

Amazon Plane's Systems Weren't Deployed to Slow Jet Before Miami Crash, NTSB Investigators Say - WSJ

Iraq2xVeteran said:

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Two systems that could have slowed an Amazon Air flight that crashed in Miami over the weekend weren't deployed before the plane careened off a runway and crashed into nearby vehicles, investigators said late Tuesday.

The National Transportation Safety Board didn't find evidence on one of the plane's black boxes that the Boeing 767's speed brakes, which are panels that create aerodynamic drag, or thrust reversers, which redirect air to lower the plane's speed while landing, were deployed, lead investigator Chihoon Shin said at a news briefing.

Amazon Plane's Systems Weren't Deployed to Slow Jet Before Miami Crash, NTSB Investigators Say - WSJ

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Sounds like the "seasoned pilots" didn't know what the hell they were doing ? Wonder if they was sleep deprivation due to lack of sleep or alcohol? Someone had said the head pilot had plenty of experience to know what to do… if so, then why all the mistakes? I bet they find he was sleep deprived for some reason…. Just my 2 cents from the couch .. not a pilot, using a little bit of common sense as to why this could happen to someone who should of known better

fullback44 said:

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Iraq2xVeteran said:

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Two systems that could have slowed an Amazon Air flight that crashed in Miami over the weekend weren't deployed before the plane careened off a runway and crashed into nearby vehicles, investigators said late Tuesday.

The National Transportation Safety Board didn't find evidence on one of the plane's black boxes that the Boeing 767's speed brakes, which are panels that create aerodynamic drag, or thrust reversers, which redirect air to lower the plane's speed while landing, were deployed, lead investigator Chihoon Shin said at a news briefing.

Amazon Plane's Systems Weren't Deployed to Slow Jet Before Miami Crash, NTSB Investigators Say - WSJ

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Sounds like the "seasoned pilots" didn't know what the hell they were doing ? Wonder if they was sleep deprivation due to lack of sleep or alcohol? Someone had said the head pilot had plenty of experience to know what to do… if so, then why all the mistakes? I bet they find he was sleep deprived for some reason…. Just my 2 cents from the couch .. not a pilot, using a little bit of common sense as to why this could happen to someone who should of known better

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I agree with your opinion that the investigators will likely find that the head pilot was sleep deprived.

Matt Walsh has the scoop.

Seems this carrier has systemic cultural issues and low hiring standards, and low qualifications standards.

Pilots online saying how horrible and incompetent the 21air pilots are.

these guys have juan just shaking his head

Too many problems with this one just to be a bad day. Sounds like a very avoidable tragedy where the captain either got tunnel vision or as others have mentioned sleep deprived. Or maybe just not yet comfortable with the instant aircraft. Unquestionably he was behind the aircraft the entire approach.

Yeah that's basically been my thought/hunch since reading about this. 21 Air should lose their flight air carrier certificate asap, not just their contract with AMZN. They have no business flying these planes.

I highly doubt these two pilots are the exception.

Conservatives were mocked when we said there was a concern with DEI and or foreign pilots. And here we are again with another conservative conspiracy theory coming true.

Pretty sure the DEI guy wasn't flying and he was telling the white guy he was too hot. His biggest failing seems to be he wasn't assertive enough and should have been more ahead of the aircraft too.

all signs point to the white inexperienced captain likely flying. so keep getting mocked

The cargo haulers have a history of hiring major airline rejects, will be interesting to know their background In my opinion
To much aircraft and not enough pilot

Was watching a simulator airbus of some type in florida. The instructor was wearing his uniform and some guy was buying simulator time. Most pathetic example of aircraft instruction i have ever seen. I just prayed this guy never flys passengers…no basic instruction taught. Student was all over the place. With zero instructor guidance and any guidance given was useless

So a lawsuit was already filed, and as always, short on facts and long on speculation, but ambulance chasing lawyers aren't known for caring or waiting for facts.

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Morejon also alleged that the flight was conducted under hazardous conditions, citing an active thunderstorm in the area, the outlet reported.

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Planes land in or near thunderstorms all the time. The storm itself was not enough to cause the accident.

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The complaint named the pilots as Captain Joseph Carroll, 55, and co-pilot Jaime Felipe Silva Molina, 37, accusing them of touching down far past the safe zone on the runway.

The plane reportedly landed more than 40 knots, or 46 mph, faster than the recommended speed, touched down 4,000 feet past the target zone and failed to perform a proper nose-flare maneuver, in which the pilot gently raised the aircraft's nose just before touchdown to slow its rate of descent.

When the approach became unstable, the pilots failed to execute a mandatory go-around or declare an emergency, the suit alleged.

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Looks to be mostly accurate based on what the NTSB has released so far.

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Crews were reportedly pushed to fly without proper rest, pilots with limited English skills were allowed to fly, and aircraft remained in service despite ongoing problems, the suit alleged.

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No evidence at this time that the crew was fatigued (NTSB is obviously looking into that as a factor), nor that either pilot had "limited English skills". Having an accent does not mean one is not proficient in English. Heck, Molina appears to have been the more competent pilot, although he clearly was not assertive enough when it mattered.

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Meanwhile, the aircraft owner, Atlas Air, was accused of supplying an aging 32-year-old plane and failing to ensure that critical stopping systems were fully operational and safe.

Authorities on Tuesday revealed that key braking systems, including speed brakes and thrust reversers, were not deployed during landing, citing available recorded data recovered from the crash. The NTSB said investigators will continue analyzing the circumstances of the incident.

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Age of the aircraft is irrelevant if it was properly maintained; and no evidence that the speed brakes and thrust reversers did not deploy due to mechanical failures. As of now, all evidence shows the pilots never deployed either.

https://www.foxbusiness.com/lifestyle/widow-files-new-suit-alleging-botched-landing-maneuvers-aircraft-safety-failures-amazon-jet-crash

The only surprise is that they're not suing Boeing, but that will happen sooner or later.

Iraq2xVeteran said:

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Two systems that could have slowed an Amazon Air flight that crashed in Miami over the weekend weren't deployed before the plane careened off a runway and crashed into nearby vehicles, investigators said late Tuesday.

The National Transportation Safety Board didn't find evidence on one of the plane's black boxes that the Boeing 767's speed brakes, which are panels that create aerodynamic drag, or thrust reversers, which redirect air to lower the plane's speed while landing, were deployed, lead investigator Chihoon Shin said at a news briefing.

Amazon Plane's Systems Weren't Deployed to Slow Jet Before Miami Crash, NTSB Investigators Say - WSJ

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Can't go around after you deploy reversers so if they had made that decision, they wouldn't have had the TRs deployed. A portion of the speed brakes can be manually deployed, but the auto TRs and speed brakes will only be deployed once the tilt switch shows both the mains down.

I guess that all assumes these guys were competently trained professionals.

Going after Atlas (the lessor I think) because they are the big money involved directly. There's nothing dangerous about a 76F at 32 years old if properly maintained, and no indication it wasn't, other than the reputation of the airline operating it to avoid corrosion maintenance. Boeing even contracts with Atlas to fly 787 wings/parts around.

Amazon loses $ BILLIONS a year on fulfillment (Prime shipping) and to minimize that loss, they award air cargo contracts to the lowest bidder.

21Air can operate 767s cheaply because, well… they have low pay and low hiring standards.
⏬

— Steve Giordano (@SteveNomadic) September 10, 2026

AMZN should clean up their cargo operations, imho.

Kenneth_2003 said:

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Laughter is actually a pretty well known response to high stress and fear

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So is profanity!