End of Compulsory Military Service and Societal Decay

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Texasclipper
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10:31a, 8/29/26
AG
The thread about feminism driving societal decay prompted me to consider how things have changed since the end of the Draft.

Having most men go through boot camp resulted in a set of societal norms that are disappearing. All branches of the military require soldiers to act a certain way: keep a clean barracks, remove covers inside, respect authority, no tolerence of Betas, and no tolerance of general nonsense.

Men no longer having this "training" is vary apparent as we generationally move from those who did. Combine that with feminization driven by many women, children without men in their lives, and increasing beta male influence and we get what we have.

I admit i didn't serve. But my dad was in the Corps in the 50s and did serve in the Army and believe me it was passed down. I passed it to my son, but I'm sure it diluted some.
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flown-the-coop
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10:35a, 8/29/26
AG
Have we had a time where most men went through military training? In the United States?

I would think it more prevalent at certain times but outside of the major wars I wouldn't think it ever approached a majority. Even then I wouldn't be surprised.

Not say your concept is a bad one, I think it can be good for some. But military discipline is not what is required or desired if you want a society that innovates and progresses.
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UTExan
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10:38a, 8/29/26
Good post. After a childhood of playing army and cowboys and Indians, I was disappointed when my Cub Scout pack didn't even offer small unit tactics. Fortunately, I got all I wanted later in the Army.
“If you’re going to have crime it should at least be organized crime”
-Havelock Vetinari
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EFR
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10:42a, 8/29/26
Even during WW2 only about 10-12% of the us population was in uniform, a far cry from "most men".
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LOYAL AG
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10:45a, 8/29/26
AG
Compulsory draft isn't mandatory service. Pretty big leap of faith here based on a misunderstanding of basic facts.
"The goal of socialism is communism." - Vladimir Lenin
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Texasclipper
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In reply to EFR • 10:45a, 8/29/26
AG
EFR said:
Even during WW2 only about 10-12% of the us population was in uniform, a far cry from "most men".

The question is what % actually went through Boot, not what % was in the service at any one time. The % of total men would include lots of folks already out of the service/too old.
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GAC06
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10:50a, 8/29/26
AG
Seems like the last time we had an actual draft we had a bit of a cultural revolution
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flown-the-coop
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10:54a, 8/29/26
AG
Grok puts the number in 1960 at 45% after being as high as 70% after WWII.

Dropping to 40% by Vietnam, 37% by 1980, and 16% by the 2010's.

Supports the observation that a sharp decline may be reflected in the overall weakness in young men (or perceived if you will, I am sure some Gen Z betas will be offended). But you could also point to decline in many activities that tended to "toughen up" folks during childhood.
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Helicopter Ben
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In reply to Texasclipper • 11:43a, 8/29/26
While I'm all in favor of men learning masculine things, I consider compulsory military service the most abhorrent thing a government can do. You can call me a coward or whatever else, but there is no way in hell I would go and fight in any of the useless conflicts we've engaged in since ww2. If they tried to send me or a son to Ukraine or some other useless war, I would likely flee the country. OTOH, if my community is under threat or there's a cause I truly believe in, I would be the first to volunteer.

I'll never understand the tolerance for conscription. We all understand how despicable slavery is. But for some magical reason, forcing people to fight and potentially die in a war they don't believe in is just fine. IMO, conscription is nothing more than state-sanctioned slavery but with far more horrifying potential.
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doubledog
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In reply to Texasclipper • 11:55a, 8/29/26
Texasclipper said:
The thread about feminism driving societal decay prompted me to consider how things have changed since the end of the Draft.

Having most men go through boot camp resulted in a set of societal norms that are disappearing. All branches of the military require soldiers to act a certain way: keep a clean barracks, remove covers inside, respect authority, no tolerence of Betas, and no tolerance of general nonsense.

Men no longer having this "training" is vary apparent as we generationally move from those who did. Combine that with feminization driven by many women, children without men in their lives, and increasing beta male influence and we get what we have.

I admit i didn't serve. But my dad was in the Corps in the 50s and did serve in the Army and believe me it was passed down. I passed it to my son, but I'm sure it diluted some.


Would your perspective shift if you were a male who had just reached the age of 18 in the year 1970?
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TrumpsBarber
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11:57a, 8/29/26
The goal of compulsory military service in America was to ensure the best possible candidates would be in the military. The Vietnam War ruined it because the government betrayed the servicemen in combat while wealthy young white men gamed the system. The draft had ended by 1974 when I turned 18 and very few of my classmates enlisted in military service. And that was a large pool of young men with 643 students in my HS class.
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Fdsa
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In reply to flown-the-coop • 1:41p, 8/29/26
flown-the-coop said:
Have we had a time where most men went through military training? In the United States?

I would think it more prevalent at certain times but outside of the major wars I wouldn't think it ever approached a majority. Even then I wouldn't be surprised.

Not say your concept is a bad one, I think it can be good for some. But military discipline is not what is required or desired if you want a society that innovates and progresses.
please explain how military discipline is not desired for a society to innovate and progress.
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5Amp
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1:47p, 8/29/26
Grok:
Draftees were over-represented in Army combat arms. They made up about 39% of Army forces in Vietnam but roughly half of Army combat deaths, because volunteers could more often choose support or technical jobs. Marines, Navy, and Air Force personnel were almost entirely volunteers.
Overall U.S. death rate among the 2.59 million who served in Vietnam was about 2.2%. Draftees who went in-country therefore faced a modestly higher risk than the force as a whole.


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flown-the-coop
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In reply to Fdsa • 2:04p, 8/29/26
AG
Fdsa said:
flown-the-coop said:
Have we had a time where most men went through military training? In the United States?

I would think it more prevalent at certain times but outside of the major wars I wouldn't think it ever approached a majority. Even then I wouldn't be surprised.

Not say your concept is a bad one, I think it can be good for some. But military discipline is not what is required or desired if you want a society that innovates and progresses.
please explain how military discipline is not desired for a society to innovate and progress.

You think military discipline breeds creativity? It's the exact opposite.
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HollywoodBQ
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In reply to EFR • 2:10p, 8/29/26
AG
EFR said:
Even during WW2 only about 10-12% of the us population was in uniform, a far cry from "most men".

Take a look at Males over 75 y/o.
In the 2024 Census estimate, they show: 4,568,017 Veterans out of a population of 25,660,192
Veterans in general are 88.9% Male.

So (4.5M / 25.6M) = 17.8%
Multiply by 88.9% = 15.82% of the males over 75 are Veterans.

Compare that with 18-34 where you've got 1,316,072 Veterans out of a population of 76,557,464.
Following the same math - 1.72% * 88.9% = 1.53% of the males between 18-34 are Veterans.

So it might not be "most" but it is 10x larger for the older set who were subject to The Draft.

https://data.census.gov/table/ACSST1Y2024.S2101?q=veterans
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Dobro Turtlebane
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In reply to flown-the-coop • 2:21p, 8/29/26
flown-the-coop said:
Fdsa said:
flown-the-coop said:
Have we had a time where most men went through military training? In the United States?

I would think it more prevalent at certain times but outside of the major wars I wouldn't think it ever approached a majority. Even then I wouldn't be surprised.

Not say your concept is a bad one, I think it can be good for some. But military discipline is not what is required or desired if you want a society that innovates and progresses.
please explain how military discipline is not desired for a society to innovate and progress.

You think military discipline breeds creativity? It's the exact opposite.


This is inaccurate, a fundamental attribution error.

Discipline has nothing to do with innovation or a lack of innovation. Military discipline does not preclude finding new and better ways to accomplish tasks. Discipline is the ability to put your own ego and/or laziness aside to complete tasks.

For the OP- There are of course outliers, but I can generally look at a guy I've never met across the room and tell if he was ever in the military. It makes better men. And perhaps most importantly, it builds a population that is against stupid forever wars. If the population had any skin in the game at all, we'd waste a lot less blood and treasure policing the world and cheering it on from the safety of the internets
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SA68AG
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2:23p, 8/29/26
AG
OP, as someone who was actually drafted into the Army in late 1969, I can assure you being drafted when there is actually a war going on isn't quite the positive experience you seem to think it is.

And as a prior poster pointed out, people like George Bush Jr and Donald Trump played by a different set of rules than those of us with less influential parents which resulted in a lot of resentment and distrust of the government that still exists today.
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flown-the-coop
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2:27p, 8/29/26
AG
It is true that for some military service creates a sense of seniority and authority over others who did not serve. When that happens, it tends to undermine the service of those who do mot develop such attributes.

Military training, discipline and the like works best for… wait for it… militaries! Unless you want to live in a complete authoritarian society, then I don't think we need to require "boot camp".

America was founded on not being satisfied with the status quo, following orders from above often from people of average or less than average intelligence.

Biggest innovators, creators, thinkers, scholars and the like all have a common attribute… they didn't get that way from military training.
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doubledog
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In reply to flown-the-coop • 2:27p, 8/29/26
flown-the-coop said:
Fdsa said:
flown-the-coop said:
Have we had a time where most men went through military training? In the United States?

I would think it more prevalent at certain times but outside of the major wars I wouldn't think it ever approached a majority. Even then I wouldn't be surprised.

Not say your concept is a bad one, I think it can be good for some. But military discipline is not what is required or desired if you want a society that innovates and progresses.

please explain how military discipline is not desired for a society to innovate and progress.

You think military discipline breeds creativity? It's the exact opposite.

I must agree with this, military discipline demands conformity. It is the opposite that often sparks innovation. For example the Sergeant Curtis G. Culin of the U.S. Army's 102nd Cavalry Reconnaissance Squadron, working outside of the Army chain of command, invented the "Rhino" device to slice through the dense Norman hedgerows during World War II.
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flown-the-coop
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In reply to doubledog • 2:31p, 8/29/26
AG
Yea, I didnt expect any resistance to my observation but different strokes for some. The entire concept of military discipline is, as you point out, conformity.

When you are ordered to build a bridge over a creek, you don't sit around for a couple days to have a good think about the best sorta of bridges, aesthetics, whether there is a better concept of bridges, analyze whether maybe a ferry service is better.

You were told to build a ****ing bridge, so get the bridge building book out and build it. Now.
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Old Army Ghost
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In reply to Helicopter Ben • 2:34p, 8/29/26
Helicopter Ben said:
While I'm all in favor of men learning masculine things, I consider compulsory military service the most abhorrent thing a government can do. You can call me a coward or whatever else, but there is no way in hell I would go and fight in any of the useless conflicts we've engaged in since ww2. If they tried to send me or a son to Ukraine or some other useless war, I would likely flee the country. OTOH, if my community is under threat or there's a cause I truly believe in, I would be the first to volunteer.

I'll never understand the tolerance for conscription. We all understand how despicable slavery is. But for some magical reason, forcing people to fight and potentially die in a war they don't believe in is just fine. IMO, conscription is nothing more than state-sanctioned slavery but with far more horrifying potential.
i never understand those who refuse to fight for the counrry. Just a bunch of takers who whine and expect others to do the dirty work for them
Old Army has gone to hell.
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Fdsa
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In reply to flown-the-coop • 2:55p, 8/29/26
flown-the-coop said:
Fdsa said:
flown-the-coop said:
Have we had a time where most men went through military training? In the United States?

I would think it more prevalent at certain times but outside of the major wars I wouldn't think it ever approached a majority. Even then I wouldn't be surprised.

Not say your concept is a bad one, I think it can be good for some. But military discipline is not what is required or desired if you want a society that innovates and progresses.
please explain how military discipline is not desired for a society to innovate and progress.

You think military discipline breeds creativity? It's the exact opposite.
I think the challenges presented by war demand creativity. Many, many things you use every day were invented by our military…and many of the large corporations you buy goods from were started by a veteran.

You sound like someone who believes the entire military is made up of 19 yo E-2s from the inner city.




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5Amp
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In reply to HollywoodBQ • 2:57p, 8/29/26
HollywoodBQ said:
EFR said:
Even during WW2 only about 10-12% of the us population was in uniform, a far cry from "most men".

Take a look at Males over 75 y/o.
In the 2024 Census estimate, they show: 4,568,017 Veterans out of a population of 25,660,192
Veterans in general are 88.9% Male.

So (4.5M / 25.6M) = 17.8%
Multiply by 88.9% = 15.82% of the males over 75 are Veterans.

Compare that with 18-34 where you've got 1,316,072 Veterans out of a population of 76,557,464.
Following the same math - 1.72% * 88.9% = 1.53% of the males between 18-34 are Veterans.

So it might not be "most" but it is 10x larger for the older set who were subject to The Draft.

https://data.census.gov/table/ACSST1Y2024.S2101?q=veterans

Boomers deserve their SS
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powerbelly
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In reply to Helicopter Ben • 2:58p, 8/29/26
AG

Quote:
While I'm all in favor of men learning masculine things, I consider compulsory military service the most abhorrent thing a government can do

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clarythedrill
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3:22p, 8/29/26
What if we have CONSCRIPTION, but not for military service but a "National Service"? Hear me out:

Upon graduation from high school, ALL males and females are conscripted. Those who want to go straight into the military are sent to their service of choice and they begin the appropriate basic training, followed by individual training and are in the force.

Those not wanting military service are put through a "common" basic training of things like physical fitness, first aid, and other tasks that every citizen should probably be proficient at. While at this "common" basic training, they are given aptitude tests to determine the best way to serve the nation in a non-military way. Some will go be firefighters, some cops, some construction workers on infrastructure projects, some into nursing and so on and so forth. Once they graduate from their individual job, they are then sent somewhere in the country where their skills are needed.

They will serve a two year stint where ever they are sent doing the job they were trained for. After that, they are released and given the equivalent of the GI Bill for their troubles, or a small business GRANT in the same amount as a normal college would charge in tuition. Or, they stay in the job they were trained in and remain in the workforce making it a career.

And for the those who are too stupid to be trained? Well, they can walk the roads and highways picking up cigarette butts or the like for their two years and then offered the Grant for whatever start up they want to do or use the Grant money as a down payment on a home loan.

This way ALL will eventually serve their country and have skins in the game. People who reap the rewards that being a U.S. citizen provides without doing anything for the country's greater good needs to stop.
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5Amp
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3:42p, 8/29/26
I wouldn't recommend military service to anyone other than a sting in the USCG.
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flown-the-coop
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In reply to Fdsa • 4:59p, 8/29/26
AG
Examples?

The also, since military participation was 70% plus post WWII, makes sense companies founded that folks know have guys who had some military service.

Scientists and researchers in the military are not getting their innovation and creativity from boot camp. HTH.
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WBBQ74
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In reply to doubledog • 5:13p, 8/29/26
AG
doubledog said:
Texasclipper said:
The thread about feminism driving societal decay prompted me to consider how things have changed since the end of the Draft.

Having most men go through boot camp resulted in a set of societal norms that are disappearing. All branches of the military require soldiers to act a certain way: keep a clean barracks, remove covers inside, respect authority, no tolerence of Betas, and no tolerance of general nonsense.

Men no longer having this "training" is vary apparent as we generationally move from those who did. Combine that with feminization driven by many women, children without men in their lives, and increasing beta male influence and we get what we have.

I admit i didn't serve. But my dad was in the Corps in the 50s and did serve in the Army and believe me it was passed down. I passed it to my son, but I'm sure it diluted some.


Would your perspective shift if you were a male who had just reached the age of 18 in the year 1970?
. I turned 18 in 1970 and entered A&M that fall. Yeah, I got it.
Texas Aggie Bandsman, Class of 1974
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EFR
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In reply to flown-the-coop • 5:32p, 8/29/26
70% plus after WW2?? Do you actually believe the numbers you make up?
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flown-the-coop
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In reply to EFR • 6:06p, 8/29/26
AG
EFR said:
70% plus after WW2?? Do you actually believe the numbers you make up?

Careful, accusing others of making stuff up feels condescending and personal.

You can dispute with your own sources and research. I think people greatly underestimate how much of the US was put into service for the war during those years.

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Average Joe
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6:14p, 8/29/26
AG
There are also direct links between generations of subpar fathers and PTSD from military service. Not just from vets, but the sons of vets growing up without a good father to model from.
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2ndGen87
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6:20p, 8/29/26
AG
I'm talking about something important, like discipline and duty and honor and courage. And you ain't got none of it!
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Pacifico
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In reply to Texasclipper • 6:23p, 8/29/26
AG
Texasclipper said:
The thread about feminism driving societal decay prompted me to consider how things have changed since the end of the Draft.

Having most men go through boot camp resulted in a set of societal norms that are disappearing. All branches of the military require soldiers to act a certain way: keep a clean barracks, remove covers inside, respect authority, no tolerence of Betas, and no tolerance of general nonsense.

Men no longer having this "training" is vary apparent as we generationally move from those who did. Combine that with feminization driven by many women, children without men in their lives, and increasing beta male influence and we get what we have.

I admit i didn't serve. But my dad was in the Corps in the 50s and did serve in the Army and believe me it was passed down. I passed it to my son, but I'm sure it diluted so

Military service today is a lot different than it was in the 1940's. Full blown DEI. God bless our Vets.
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EFR
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In reply to flown-the-coop • 6:55p, 8/29/26
Let's start with super simple math to make it easy for you. US population during WW2 was more or less 150 million, half male. Roughly 16 million Americans wore a uniform in the war.
16 is not 70% of 75.
Add in 5 million vets from WW1 and you get 21 million, still not 70% of 75.
Now let's look at your "research" which is AI referencing a Twitter post. It mentions "some age cohorts". That can mean just about anything, such as males born in June of 1920. What it does NOT mean is the population in general.
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flown-the-coop
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In reply to EFR • 8:00p, 8/29/26
AG
Do you have any sort of point?

To add: if you had followed the thread, you would note I am skeptical with the "majority of men" comment made by the OP. So I asked Grok… I didn't embark on writing a term paper or historical reference book on the subject.

The point of what I did find was to indicate if you wanted to pick a high watermark, the WWII era would be it, with.l a decline that ever steepens since.

So I have no idea whilst you want to bicker over the number. You have a tendency to just say "nuh uh, I simply don't believe you" then stomp your feet when I don't provide a bibliography.

You can come to your own conclusions. Me, I would be hesitant to believe there was ever a time in the US where a majority of men received formal military training. The high watermark would be WWII. What that actual figure is likely is not readily available and if so you would need to more strictly define "formal military training".

But again, believe whatever you want.
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