FIDO_Ags said:

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Nice with the dig at the end. Getting folks to do unnatural things like standing in a line and getting shot at is not accomplished through "training". It's accomplished through brainwashing, manipulation, threat and coercion.

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This thread should be retitled "How to Know You Never Spent Time in the Military Without Saying You Never Spent Time in the Military".

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flown-the-coop said:

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Dobro Turtlebane said:

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flown-the-coop said:

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Dobro Turtlebane said:

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flown-the-coop said:

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A key component of military training is to make those minds all behave the same.

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Please provide citations for this deeply held belief presented as fact.

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You teach a bunch of independent thinking exercises and creativity in basic training?

How about you provide the "citations".

In the meantime, people understand the concept of military training and that it's not aimed to provide an environment of innovation, creativity and independent thinking. That's horse*****

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To quote you, you stated the fact so you have to provide evidence.

Yes, the military teaches how to innovate. Here are the guidelines, execute how you see fit within the intent. Hell, the military has entire graduate-level programs on this - SAMS being one. You keep getting hung up on basic training, is that because you're basing your research on the first half of Full Metal Jacket? Basic Training provides about 1/100th of 1% of what someone learns in their first year of the military

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Maybe you missed the OP about basic military training.

No one has said, including me not saying, that military training is of little value, worthless, doesn't teach you anything. The OP was NOT regarding everyone going to war college and doing 20 years.

Step back and read the thread rather than strawmanning an argument Keith myself nor anyone other than you and a couple of others are trying to make.

It's absolutely absurd to say basic military training teaches innovation and creativity. Or maybe basic military training is now like Girl Scouts and you learn to sell cookies, come and go as your please, eat what you want, behave the way you like. Is that what you are trying to get at? That basic training is not about rigid discipline, following orders, etc? Maybe I do have a dated concept…

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Fdsa said:

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Name a career that is not rigid at the beginning. Medicine, aviation, law, engineering and the trades all start with rules, hierarchy, repetition and doing things the prescribed way.

Competence comes before autonomy.

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flown-the-coop said:

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Fdsa said:

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Name a career that is not rigid at the beginning. Medicine, aviation, law, engineering and the trades all start with rules, hierarchy, repetition and doing things the prescribed way.

Competence comes before autonomy.

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You are so far off topic it's starting to get concerning.

But to play your game, architecture, any sort of design, careers in writing, teaching, most business startup… all allow for and thrive from creativity, innovation, autonomy, etc.

The reason "competency before autonomy" is suited for the military is the same reason innovation, creativity and independence are not core to basic military training.

This is not a difficult concept.

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Fdsa said:

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flown-the-coop said:

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Fdsa said:

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Name a career that is not rigid at the beginning. Medicine, aviation, law, engineering and the trades all start with rules, hierarchy, repetition and doing things the prescribed way.

Competence comes before autonomy.

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You are so far off topic it's starting to get concerning.

But to play your game, architecture, any sort of design, careers in writing, teaching, most business startup… all allow for and thrive from creativity, innovation, autonomy, etc.

The reason "competency before autonomy" is suited for the military is the same reason innovation, creativity and independence are not core to basic military training.

This is not a difficult concept.

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competency before autonomy is suitable for all careers of consequence including the ones you listed above.

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Fdsa said:

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Autonomy is generally required for creativity to flourish. In the careers listed above, you rarely hear "be creative" in your first two months. You learn the basics, prove competence, and move out with some autonomy to solve hard problems creatively.

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flyrancher said:

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I have read the majority of posts here and have one comment. Those who have never served in the military are in no position to evaluate its value. The pros and cons of service are beyond your comprehension. You cannot be trusted to evaluate something in which you never participated or experienced.

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flown-the-coop said:

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Fdsa said:

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Autonomy is generally required for creativity to flourish. In the careers listed above, you rarely hear "be creative" in your first two months. You learn the basics, prove competence, and move out with some autonomy to solve hard problems creatively.

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"Generally" and "rarely" seem like crawfishing. Plus, since you seem to desire to equate everything to military training, what military training gives you 2 months then sends you out in your own to solve problems creatively? Maybe things are different these days.

So an 18yo signs up, goes through basic, is handed his gear then shipped off and said figure it out and hope it goes well?

Does that happen after 2 months? 2 years? 20 years? Hint: unless you are POTUS, someone is always above you telling you what to do, when to do it and almost always how to do it.

That is somewhat unique to the military. But you do you bro.

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flown-the-coop said:

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Fdsa said:

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Autonomy is generally required for creativity to flourish. In the careers listed above, you rarely hear "be creative" in your first two months. You learn the basics, prove competence, and move out with some autonomy to solve hard problems creatively.

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"Generally" and "rarely" seem like crawfishing. Plus, since you seem to desire to equate everything to military training, what military training gives you 2 months then sends you out in your own to solve problems creatively? Maybe things are different these days.

So an 18yo signs up, goes through basic, is handed his gear then shipped off and said figure it out and hope it goes well?

Does that happen after 2 months? 2 years? 20 years? Hint: unless you are POTUS, someone is always above you telling you what to do, when to do it and almost always how to do it.

That is somewhat unique to the military. But you do you bro.

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flown-the-coop said:

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flyrancher said:

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I have read the majority of posts here and have one comment. Those who have never served in the military are in no position to evaluate its value. The pros and cons of service are beyond your comprehension. You cannot be trusted to evaluate something in which you never participated or experienced.

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That's funny and so incredibly condescending.

It's also bizarre because I don't think anyone questioned its "value".

But it's ludicrous to say anyone who never donned the uniform can have any assessment, evaluation or criticism of the military. Truly a fanatically bizarre take.

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But it's ludicrous to say anyone who never donned the uniform can have any assessment, evaluation or criticism of the military. Truly a fanatically bizarre take.

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flown-the-coop said:

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flyrancher said:

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I have read the majority of posts here and have one comment. Those who have never served in the military are in no position to evaluate its value. The pros and cons of service are beyond your comprehension. You cannot be trusted to evaluate something in which you never participated or experienced.

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That's funny and so incredibly condescending.

It's also bizarre because I don't think anyone questioned its "value".

But it's ludicrous to say anyone who never donned the uniform can have any assessment, evaluation or criticism of the military. Truly a fanatically bizarre take.

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Ulysses90 said:

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Having said all that in condemnation of the suggestion of compulsory military service, I am gradually shifting to the position that it may be of a greater value to the nation that there is compulsory military service at least for entry level training. There are societal benefits of giving the young adults of America a common baseline of shared experience in a humbling adverse environment that would teach them some basic skills of responsibility and leadership they would use the rest of their life.

Eight to ten weeks of entry level training that includes shaved heads, little sleep, communal showers & toilets, and lots of PT would improve 90% of the general population. They would live amongst a cross section of American society that very few do because they never leave their cohort in social status or geographic neighborhood. After the boot camp, discharge them into an individual ready reserve status with eligibility to be recalled to active duty to complete MOS training for four years. They would get a small paycheck for a couple of months in boot camp and the top 10% could be offered accession directly into the regular active duty component or officer candidate school. There will be cream that rises to the top in every class. It would not be cheap to do this but it might be worth it for the unifying effect that military service, even just boot camp, tends to have on those that graduate.

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AustinAg2K said:

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Can you imagine for awful boarding an airplane will become if all of a sudden everyone is a veteran?

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Aggie Infantry said:

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UTExan: When my son was in Cub Scouts, I was a Den Leader. When the boys got restless, we did 3-to-5 second rushes, bounding overwatch, and assault through ambush drills.

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GAC06 said:

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flyrancher said:

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I have read the majority of posts here and have one comment. Those who have never served in the military are in no position to evaluate its value. The pros and cons of service are beyond your comprehension. You cannot be trusted to evaluate something in which you never participated or experienced.

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It is amusing that the thread lamenting the lack of compulsory service was started by a guy that didn't serve, and the most prolific poster on it telling people about military training… also didn't serve.

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EFR said:

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Even during WW2 only about 10-12% of the us population was in uniform, a far cry from "most men".

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Aggie Infantry said:

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UTExan: When my son was in Cub Scouts, I was a Den Leader. When the boys got restless, we did 3-to-5 second rushes, bounding overwatch, and assault through ambush drills.

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