LOYAL AG said:

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shiftyandquick said:

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I remember when conservatives used to believe in capitalism. Not in nationalizing companies and the federal governments taking stakes into them, and propping up domestic industries by implementing massive tariffs. So much for any pretense to the invisible hand. It's a very visible hand that sweeps money away from you and directly to the oligarchy.

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m

Strictly speaking capitalism is the obvious choice if we all play by the same rules. Unfortunately in today's global economy we don't. To my knowledge we haven't implemented any tariffs that weren't reactionary meaning we have them in response to actions by the other nation. China heavily subsidizes industries it wants to keep in China which artificially reduces the cost of those goods and disincentivizes companies to move production elsewhere including back to the U.S. and they do it by printing money at a rate significantly faster than we're printing it. That creates a significant advantage for Chinese workers that we can't compete against without offsetting subsidies, aka tariffs. Whining about American policy as anti-capitalist without acknowledging the whole picture is disingenuous at best.

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Wrong. Trump implemented tariffs on essentially every country in the world. They are doing so to remake the American economy. Not to combat unfair trading practices.

I get it--you believe what Trump says when he says it. But it's a lie.

reineraggie09 said:

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I think publicly traded companies are also a problem. As a public company, you have to think in quarters. In a private (not a private equity) company you can think in generations. My favorite companies are almost always still closely held. HEB, Buc-ee's, Mars just to name a few.

The market also values cheap. Someone just gifted my daughters a bunch of Life magazines from the 60s. The ads are the most compelling part. Glamour, style. The cars had a soul. People got dressed up to go over to a dinner whether a restaurant or a friend's. Different times. Those people valued quality over quantity. Have one pair of really nice dress shoes you keep for years instead of 4 pairs of replaceable shoes.

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Absolutely an issue but it's a double-edged sword.

When you change your strategy simply because a rando financial analyst blasts you on an earnings call then that's a huge problem. I use this example because I've lived it.

infinity ag said:

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BboroAg said:

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The issue is not capitalism. Capitalism is used to describe the US economy and it is the equivalent of calling our government a democracy (we are a republic).

What made the USA great was free enterprise/free markets.Government interference has led us to socialism (a government controlled economy). This was not what the founding father's envisioned.

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America was great when there was no globalization. America was the world. Then our corps got greedy and pushed this globalization idea and America's power reduced and China/India got better and in some decades we will all be 2nd world TOGETHER.

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Globalization was born out of WWII via Bretton Woods. The deal we made with the world was that we will police it and ensure mostly frictionless sea trade in exchange for us being Pax Americana and all of the favored trading and deal making that comes with it.

So, it wasn't just greedy CEO's; it was US leadership and military involved with that too.

And there is no problem with capitalism, except when the politicians allow or force manufacturing to depart by crappy policy.

shiftyandquick said:

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I remember when conservatives used to believe in capitalism. Not in nationalizing companies and the federal governments taking stakes into them, and propping up domestic industries by implementing massive tariffs. So much for any pretense to the invisible hand. It's a very visible hand that sweeps money away from you and directly to the oligarchy.

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Huge hit and miss. Your ideas that companies being nationalized and government imposes tariffs are not the reasons a grill brush cannot be effectively manufactured in the USA.

ETA: What has been nationalized? And globalization starting with Nixon opening trade with China was the beginning of our problems.

One big reason why short-term performance became a priority over long-term vision is the CEO pay cap on deductions.

This reason video explains it better than I could. It's part 3, but the others are worthwhile and short, too.

https://reason.com/video/2026/07/13/great-moments-in-unintended-consequences-yosemite-permits-italys-superbonus-ceo-salary-caps-vol-22/

Yet another example of a government fix that made things worse.

CaptnCarl said:

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I enjoy his content, but can't dedicate an hour for his videos. Are there some high points beyond the headline?

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Well basically he makes a few points all related to how difficult it is to manufacture things in the US.

One is that there is a lot of specialized knowledge that is dying in the US, and going to China. Knowledge that you can't replace. For example, in the video, he mentions someone that knew how to make dies and tooling who died, and that is something China has been getting better at, and no one really does here anymore.

China used to just be good at copying stuff, but they're now focusing on the development and creation part. And if we outsource that to them as well, then we lose the knowledge that will be hard to regain. And as AI is being developed, robotics are going to do a lot of things efficiently. But at the end of that robot arm, you still need someone to develop and design and create whatever is going to do the actual machining or physical work.

Further he points out that companies have a tendency to do something called "encrapification." Basically, once they make a product, they start searching out ways to make more money. In this pursuit, they often make products cheaper and cheaper, sacrificing quality, or sacrificing people. For example in the video, a Canadian chainmail company built up their business in conjunction with another company from a few hundred orders to 10's of thousands, and then one day just decided to get all that from China instead, leaving that company high and dry. And chain mail is difficult to make, and few companies in the world make it, even fewer in North America.

Also points out companies cutting cornder after the capture a market, that eventually leads to worse products, product recalls, etc.

His argument regarding capitalism is essentially "people over profits" and thinking long term instead of short, so you don't sell out long term prosperity for short term profit.


My dad told me, years ago, that the Japanese once convinced an American company (perhaps it was Magnavox?) to let them manufacture the VCRs, and they would actually pay the American company for each unit sold under their brand name. The American company jumped at the idea, make money for doing no work, other than lending the company logo. And just like that manufacturing and expertise got shipped overseas, never to return.


I watched the video on 2.5x speed, in a few sittings.

shiftyandquick said:

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LOYAL AG said:

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shiftyandquick said:

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I remember when conservatives used to believe in capitalism. Not in nationalizing companies and the federal governments taking stakes into them, and propping up domestic industries by implementing massive tariffs. So much for any pretense to the invisible hand. It's a very visible hand that sweeps money away from you and directly to the oligarchy.

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m

Strictly speaking capitalism is the obvious choice if we all play by the same rules. Unfortunately in today's global economy we don't. To my knowledge we haven't implemented any tariffs that weren't reactionary meaning we have them in response to actions by the other nation. China heavily subsidizes industries it wants to keep in China which artificially reduces the cost of those goods and disincentivizes companies to move production elsewhere including back to the U.S. and they do it by printing money at a rate significantly faster than we're printing it. That creates a significant advantage for Chinese workers that we can't compete against without offsetting subsidies, aka tariffs. Whining about American policy as anti-capitalist without acknowledging the whole picture is disingenuous at best.

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Wrong. Trump implemented tariffs on essentially every country in the world. They are doing so to remake the American economy. Not to combat unfair trading practices.

I get it--you believe what Trump says when he says it. But it's a lie.

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What did Trump say that was a lie?

Should the market that America participates in allow slave labor or not?

If the answer is no, how do we get the people that work with their hands for a living and live in our country to compete against the slave labor in the market we are participating in?

bobbranco said:

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And there is no problem with capitalism, except when the politicians allow or force manufacturing to depart by crappy policy.

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Capitalism is certainly the most efficient way to create products and respond to market forces.

However, when there is no accountability it allows individuals or companies to generate products and wealth, and abscond with that wealth, without being held accountable to people they may have scammed or harmed.

If a company stops hiring American workers, and ships all their intellectual property overseas, and hires engineers there, eventually that knowledge may be lost here. Especially if it's not profitable for any company to compete with local talent only. It may not be for years after no one has that specialized knoweldge in the US that we realize it is a problem.

If a company pollutes a neighborhood for years, without anyone noticing, while creating the most inexpensive version of a product, that undercuts all the competition till the competition goes out of business what happens? Now there are no market forces that can compete with the company that would allow consumers to buy something from a more ethical company. And perhaps the company has since sold their operation and the individuals that did all the polluting are long since retired. No one gets held accountable.


I knew someone that told me once that in the US we think in terms for fiscal quarters. Do whatever we can to squeeze out some growth for that quarter, without thinking about the long term. In China, they think in terms of fiscal centuries. They'll take loss after loss for years, if they think decades from now it'll pay dividends.

bigtruckguy3500 said:

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bobbranco said:

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And there is no problem with capitalism, except when the politicians allow or force manufacturing to depart by crappy policy.

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Capitalism is certainly the most efficient way to create products and respond to market forces.

However, when there is no accountability it allows individuals or companies to generate products and wealth, and abscond with that wealth, without being held accountable to people they may have scammed or harmed.

If a company stops hiring American workers, and ships all their intellectual property overseas, and hires engineers there, eventually that knowledge may be lost here. Especially if it's not profitable for any company to compete with local talent only. It may not be for years after no one has that specialized knoweldge in the US that we realize it is a problem.

If a company pollutes a neighborhood for years, without anyone noticing, while creating the most inexpensive version of a product, that undercuts all the competition till the competition goes out of business what happens? Now there are no market forces that can compete with the company that would allow consumers to buy something from a more ethical company. And perhaps the company has since sold their operation and the individuals that did all the polluting are long since retired. No one gets held accountable.


I knew someone that told me once that in the US we think in terms for fiscal quarters. Do whatever we can to squeeze out some growth for that quarter, without thinking about the long term. In China, they think in terms of fiscal centuries. They'll take loss after loss for years, if they think decades from now it'll pay dividends.

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Well, that is just simply fact because our financial reporting system is set up that way. I despise it and wish we would move away from it, but I also get some of the downside of moving away from it (less transparency, etc.). We still have the best market on the planet by orders of magnitude but not without its faults.

A long read and may be a fair summary.

https://www.investmentmonitor.ai/manufacturing/who-killed-us-manufacturing/?cf-view

Capitalism is a great system. No doubt.

However it's become a religion by now. No one wants to think about the downsides of capitalism (much like a religion). If someone brings them up, then people try to attack that person - again like in case of a religion. Capitalism, like any system has prerequisites. What are those? No one cares. There isn't a proper definition of what is and what isn't capitalism. So that means anyone can do whatever they like and call it capitalism and if they are rich and famous, no one will dare to oppose that.

America isn't in good shape today. Something is wrong.I feel like many Americans have given up on America and are either preparing to die or admit defeat to China and/or Russia/India. Talking to people gives me this view.

Didn't someone once say capitalism is the worst system except for all the others?

Freedom made this country great. Even the poor in America are in the top 0.5% of all of human civilization when it comes to standard of living.

Our quickest way to turn things around is to instill gratitude for how we got here and quit looking to the government to "fix" things only to have them get worse.

shiftyandquick said:

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I remember when conservatives used to believe in capitalism. Not in nationalizing companies and the federal governments taking stakes into them, and propping up domestic industries by implementing massive tariffs. So much for any pretense to the invisible hand. It's a very visible hand that sweeps money away from you and directly to the oligarchy.

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Is the oligarchy in the room with us right now?

The other problem with exporting our manufacturing is espionage and selling secrets. Toshiba and Kongsberg Vapenfabrikk, I'm looking at you.

infinity ag said:

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Capitalism is a great system. No doubt.

However it's become a religion by now. No one wants to think about the downsides of capitalism (much like a religion). If someone brings them up, then people try to attack that person - again like in case of a religion. Capitalism, like any system has prerequisites. What are those? No one cares. There isn't a proper definition of what is and what isn't capitalism. So that means anyone can do whatever they like and call it capitalism and if they are rich and famous, no one will dare to oppose that.

America isn't in good shape today. Something is wrong.I feel like many Americans have given up on America and are either preparing to die or admit defeat to China and/or Russia/India. Talking to people gives me this view.

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Capitalism =/= religion

infinity ag said:

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Capitalism is a great system. No doubt.

However it's become a religion by now. No one wants to think about the downsides of capitalism (much like a religion). If someone brings them up, then people try to attack that person - again like in case of a religion. Capitalism, like any system has prerequisites. What are those? No one cares. There isn't a proper definition of what is and what isn't capitalism. So that means anyone can do whatever they like and call it capitalism and if they are rich and famous, no one will dare to oppose that.

America isn't in good shape today. Something is wrong.I feel like many Americans have given up on America and are either preparing to die or admit defeat to China and/or Russia/India. Talking to people gives me this view.

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This was a long ramble that made zero sense.

America is doing great. Get off your phone. It just depresses people.

America is currently the most powerful economic engine in the history of man, and AI is going to increase our productivity even more.

Bunch of Debbie downers in here.

sam callahan said:

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Didn't someone once say capitalism is the worst system except for all the others?

Freedom made this country great. Even the poor in America are in the top 0.5% of all of human civilization when it comes to standard of living.

Our quickest way to turn things around is to instill gratitude for how we got here and quit looking to the government to "fix" things only to have them get worse.

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The conditions that got us to "great" don't exist anymore. Things have changed. "Capitalism" as we see it today cannot get us back to great again.

IIIHorn said:

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infinity ag said:

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Capitalism is a great system. No doubt.

However it's become a religion by now. No one wants to think about the downsides of capitalism (much like a religion). If someone brings them up, then people try to attack that person - again like in case of a religion. Capitalism, like any system has prerequisites. What are those? No one cares. There isn't a proper definition of what is and what isn't capitalism. So that means anyone can do whatever they like and call it capitalism and if they are rich and famous, no one will dare to oppose that.

America isn't in good shape today. Something is wrong.I feel like many Americans have given up on America and are either preparing to die or admit defeat to China and/or Russia/India. Talking to people gives me this view.

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Capitalism =/= religion

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It is not but people behave like it is. I just made an analogy.

BusterAg said:

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infinity ag said:

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Capitalism is a great system. No doubt.

However it's become a religion by now. No one wants to think about the downsides of capitalism (much like a religion). If someone brings them up, then people try to attack that person - again like in case of a religion. Capitalism, like any system has prerequisites. What are those? No one cares. There isn't a proper definition of what is and what isn't capitalism. So that means anyone can do whatever they like and call it capitalism and if they are rich and famous, no one will dare to oppose that.

America isn't in good shape today. Something is wrong.I feel like many Americans have given up on America and are either preparing to die or admit defeat to China and/or Russia/India. Talking to people gives me this view.

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This was a long ramble that made zero sense.

America is doing great. Get off your phone. It just depresses people.

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I am on my desktop. I don't use my phone for TexAgs.

It did not make sense to you because you did not take the time to read and think about it. Try it.

My observations: quasi legal drugs, cell phones, and unions have made it very difficult to grow mid to large scale domestic manufacturing. Cost to output is severely diminished compared to a decade+ ago.

Even unskilled labor isn't safe from en*****tification.

infinity ag said:

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Capitalism is a great system. No doubt.

However it's become a religion by now. No one wants to think about the downsides of capitalism (much like a religion). If someone brings them up, then people try to attack that person - again like in case of a religion. Capitalism, like any system has prerequisites. What are those? No one cares. There isn't a proper definition of what is and what isn't capitalism. So that means anyone can do whatever they like and call it capitalism and if they are rich and famous, no one will dare to oppose that.

America isn't in good shape today. Something is wrong.I feel like many Americans have given up on America and are either preparing to die or admit defeat to China and/or Russia/India. Talking to people gives me this view.

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Agree. When it comes to thinking about economic structures, there is a lack of critical or nuanced thinking. Most people either worship at the altar of unfettered capitalism (except when it harms them) and the other worships at the altar of socialism (except when it harms them).

infinity ag said:

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America isn't in good shape today. Something is wrong.

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America, for all of its faults (and it has many) is still the best country....on its worst day.....to ever exist in the history of ever. All of what's wrong here is due to fiscally liberal idiocy. Stop being stupid, like that, and it only gets better.

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I knew someone that told me once that in the US we think in terms for fiscal quarters. Do whatever we can to squeeze out some growth for that quarter, without thinking about the long term. In China, they think in terms of fiscal centuries. They'll take loss after loss for years, if they think decades from now it'll pay dividends.

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And yet China has been a third world agrarian society for all of the past 5000 years except the current era when the U.S. lifted them out of poverty for strategic purposes. You sound like you're trying to say that thinking in terms of centuries is somehow a winning strategy for China which is illogical given what's actually happened. They've existed in some form or fashion for 50 centuries and have been the dominant global force for exactly zero of them. When does their payoff for that long term focus come? Meanwhile we are 250 years old and run the world and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.

What am I missing here?

infinity ag said:

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IIIHorn said:

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infinity ag said:

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Capitalism is a great system. No doubt.

However it's become a religion by now. No one wants to think about the downsides of capitalism (much like a religion). If someone brings them up, then people try to attack that person - again like in case of a religion. Capitalism, like any system has prerequisites. What are those? No one cares. There isn't a proper definition of what is and what isn't capitalism. So that means anyone can do whatever they like and call it capitalism and if they are rich and famous, no one will dare to oppose that.

America isn't in good shape today. Something is wrong.I feel like many Americans have given up on America and are either preparing to die or admit defeat to China and/or Russia/India. Talking to people gives me this view.

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Capitalism =/= religion

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It is not but people behave like it is. I just made an analogy.

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Generalization =/= analogy

LOYAL AG said:

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Quote:

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I knew someone that told me once that in the US we think in terms for fiscal quarters. Do whatever we can to squeeze out some growth for that quarter, without thinking about the long term. In China, they think in terms of fiscal centuries. They'll take loss after loss for years, if they think decades from now it'll pay dividends.

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And yet China has been a third world agrarian society for all of the past 5000 years except the current era when the U.S. lifted them out of poverty for strategic purposes. You sound like you're trying to say that thinking in terms of centuries is somehow a winning strategy for China which is illogical given what's actually happened. They've existed in some form or fashion for 50 centuries and have been the dominant global force for exactly zero of them. When does their payoff for that long term focus come? Meanwhile we are 250 years old and run the world and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.

What am I missing here?

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And nevermind China is at the peak of the roller coaster on their way down. Mass depopulation, completely manipulated markets, internal communist coups, lack of transparent metrics of what's even happening since Covid, reliance on others for energy and food, etc

They have improved the quality of their manufacturing and resilience and they still own pharma and raw material resources outright. Those are their three strengths and that's about it but they have massive problems that dwarf ours.

You have Lucky Palmer, Tim Cook and others extolling the ingenuity of the Chinese engineers designing and prototyping the next round of manufacturing

But they don't acknowledge that it is a direct result of regulations, taxes, and corporate financial decisions that has been driving those jobs overseas since the 50's

Take a look at the tonnage of steel, plastics, ceramics or any other commodity produced by the US since our 1950 peak.

That reorganizes entire supply chains

With 3D printing of metals and plastics we have a chance to retool America in the next phase of manufacturing technology.

I hope we do.

The problem with China's approach (or most central planning systems) imo is it doesn't properly weigh how innovation and dynamic markets degrade their projected future advantage. Said innovations and dynamic market conditions predominately come from incentive based free market systems. In large part it's not even predictable because it comes from people that aren't severely constrained by the system .

Another thought, at some point large corporations start to look like central planning economic systems and it squashes true innovation and that's why I'd posit a lot of the real game changing innovations come from start ups and smaller companies … and then the start ups and smaller companies become large corporations or get bought out by large corporations and then the cycle repeats.

infinity ag said:

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There are 2 players here - Government, and Corporation.

Whom do we trust more?
They are both sleazy and slimy but we have to make a choice - lesser of both evils.

I pick Government. At least we can kick them out after their term (in most cases). Government has to apply or remove regulation on corporations and people in order to let society work best. There is no other way.

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You choose poorly

shiftyandquick said:

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LOYAL AG said:

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shiftyandquick said:

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I remember when conservatives used to believe in capitalism. Not in nationalizing companies and the federal governments taking stakes into them, and propping up domestic industries by implementing massive tariffs. So much for any pretense to the invisible hand. It's a very visible hand that sweeps money away from you and directly to the oligarchy.

---

m

Strictly speaking capitalism is the obvious choice if we all play by the same rules. Unfortunately in today's global economy we don't. To my knowledge we haven't implemented any tariffs that weren't reactionary meaning we have them in response to actions by the other nation. China heavily subsidizes industries it wants to keep in China which artificially reduces the cost of those goods and disincentivizes companies to move production elsewhere including back to the U.S. and they do it by printing money at a rate significantly faster than we're printing it. That creates a significant advantage for Chinese workers that we can't compete against without offsetting subsidies, aka tariffs. Whining about American policy as anti-capitalist without acknowledging the whole picture is disingenuous at best.

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Wrong. Trump implemented tariffs on essentially every country in the world. They are doing so to remake the American economy. Not to combat unfair trading practices.

I get it--you believe what Trump says when he says it. But it's a lie.

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And conversely you think everything he says is a lie.

sam callahan said:

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Quote:

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Makes the argument that we think of capitalism in terms of purely short term financial gains

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That is a market response. People value cheap over quality.

It's also a blanket statement that isn't universal. Again, because some markets are built on quality demands over price. Premium brands do exist. People smoke waygu briskets everyday. I can buy a $500 oven or a $5,000 one. Some people buy Whole Foods butter at 3X what I buy the HEB brand for, and that is far from low-quality butter.

When regulation costs go up and you are competing on price, those cost cuts have to come from somewhere and the only choices are quality or service.

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I think that is largely because, overall, products have become far closer to the cheap category over the quality category.

It's also a function of the delta in price - when I can buy 4 or 5 cheap widgets for the same price as 1 quality widget and those cheap widgets last, say 60% as long as the quality one, then it becomes prudent to buy the cheap widget.

But if that cheap widget only lasts 10% as long as a quality one or the downtime to change the widget out is significant enough that production suffers, then a quality widget becomes the correct choice.

If the delta isn't massive, depending on what I'm buying, I'll spend more to get a known better quality item over a cheap one. The problem is that most of the time the delta in cost is pretty significant - the cheap item is cheap and the quality item is 2x, 3x, 4x, etc. the cost. I prefer quality most of the time.

Your oven is a great example. If there was a choice of say, a $1000 oven that is significantly better in quality, features, ergonomics, performance, etc. across the board than the $500 option, but not as good as what you can get with the $5,000 option you'd almost always go for that $1,000 option because it's a good combination of quality, function and price.

But absent that option you get the cheap or the quality choices, and unless you are a pro pastry chef that $5000 option doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

This is completely wrong. China was more technologically advanced + created more industrial output than Europe for the grand majority of recorded history. This is what China was putting to sea nearly a hundred years before Columbus:

The only people "giving up on America" are entitled babies that are completely ignorant on how good they have it and wish they had Elon money without having to work for it.

What exactly are you suggesting? What is the solutions you are proposing? Because it sounds a whole lot like Socialism but you don't have the courage to come out and say it.