flown-the-coop said:

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Tea Party said:

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flown-the-coop said:

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AggieEP said:

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SquirrellyDan said:

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There's nothing wrong with FISA, the problem is how it can be illegally applied. By definition it requires a warrant and must be focused on counter terrorism, counter proliferation, or foreign governments.

Any use outside of these requirements is illegal.

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I can almost guarantee that myself and SquirrellyDan are the two on this board with the most experience with FISA. The training is extensive and thorough. The process is onerous to get approval if your target is even remotely questionable. Any normal person trying to circumvent the rules in place and do illegal crap is going to get caught. This is just a simple fact. No rando CIA guy is wasting his time going through the 702 process to spy on the Trump campaign unless he's being ordered to do it by a political appointee high up in the agency.

What you all are up in arms about is politicians using their influence to engage in illegal activity and spy on US persons without proper justification under the terms of the law. Getting rid of FISA will stop the lawful collection of intelligence on dangerous terrorists and criminals but I seriously doubt it would stop politicians from illegally spying on their opponents. Getting rid of the law doesn't make the tools to spy disappear.

Just like guns, guns don't kill people, bad people with a gun kill people. Don't blame the tools and over react and ban them.

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Not sure why people are not more informed on what both of you have posted.

I am not for spying on American citizens but I also do not like the idea of jihadists having their phone calls be hidden from those charged with stopping them.

It's clear Biden and Obama abused the **** out of it. And will again. Try and get safeguards put in place whilst you can.

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"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
-Benjamin Franklin

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Sounds smart.

Assume you big defund the police guy?

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The police are constitutional, warrantless spying on Americans isn't. HTH.

PaulsBunions said:

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flown-the-coop said:

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Tea Party said:

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flown-the-coop said:

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AggieEP said:

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SquirrellyDan said:

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There's nothing wrong with FISA, the problem is how it can be illegally applied. By definition it requires a warrant and must be focused on counter terrorism, counter proliferation, or foreign governments.

Any use outside of these requirements is illegal.

---

I can almost guarantee that myself and SquirrellyDan are the two on this board with the most experience with FISA. The training is extensive and thorough. The process is onerous to get approval if your target is even remotely questionable. Any normal person trying to circumvent the rules in place and do illegal crap is going to get caught. This is just a simple fact. No rando CIA guy is wasting his time going through the 702 process to spy on the Trump campaign unless he's being ordered to do it by a political appointee high up in the agency.

What you all are up in arms about is politicians using their influence to engage in illegal activity and spy on US persons without proper justification under the terms of the law. Getting rid of FISA will stop the lawful collection of intelligence on dangerous terrorists and criminals but I seriously doubt it would stop politicians from illegally spying on their opponents. Getting rid of the law doesn't make the tools to spy disappear.

Just like guns, guns don't kill people, bad people with a gun kill people. Don't blame the tools and over react and ban them.

---

Not sure why people are not more informed on what both of you have posted.

I am not for spying on American citizens but I also do not like the idea of jihadists having their phone calls be hidden from those charged with stopping them.

It's clear Biden and Obama abused the **** out of it. And will again. Try and get safeguards put in place whilst you can.

---

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
-Benjamin Franklin

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Sounds smart.

Assume you big defund the police guy?

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The police are constitutional, warrantless spying on Americans isn't. HTH.

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SCOTUS will strike it down then.

And I think you have poor understanding about what this is about.

PaulsBunions said:

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The rotten, corrupt FBI has done nothing but abuse FISA since it was first authorized.

This is a provable fact.

Any Republican who votes for it is scum and doesn't give a damn about you.

They know the FBI will continue to abuse FISA against it's own citizens and they just…

— Catturd ™ (@catturd2) April 11, 2024

Trump is scum now according to the turd

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Cat turd voted for this.

Something shifted. I don't understand it.

Ol boy is getting paranoid in his cognitive decline.

That's life in the digital and electronic technology age. It sucks that national security comes attached with a necessary cost and high price to privacy. But it is necessary. We're in an arms race.

flown-the-coop said:

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Tea Party said:

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flown-the-coop said:

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AggieEP said:

---

SquirrellyDan said:

---

There's nothing wrong with FISA, the problem is how it can be illegally applied. By definition it requires a warrant and must be focused on counter terrorism, counter proliferation, or foreign governments.

Any use outside of these requirements is illegal.

---

I can almost guarantee that myself and SquirrellyDan are the two on this board with the most experience with FISA. The training is extensive and thorough. The process is onerous to get approval if your target is even remotely questionable. Any normal person trying to circumvent the rules in place and do illegal crap is going to get caught. This is just a simple fact. No rando CIA guy is wasting his time going through the 702 process to spy on the Trump campaign unless he's being ordered to do it by a political appointee high up in the agency.

What you all are up in arms about is politicians using their influence to engage in illegal activity and spy on US persons without proper justification under the terms of the law. Getting rid of FISA will stop the lawful collection of intelligence on dangerous terrorists and criminals but I seriously doubt it would stop politicians from illegally spying on their opponents. Getting rid of the law doesn't make the tools to spy disappear.

Just like guns, guns don't kill people, bad people with a gun kill people. Don't blame the tools and over react and ban them.

---

Not sure why people are not more informed on what both of you have posted.

I am not for spying on American citizens but I also do not like the idea of jihadists having their phone calls be hidden from those charged with stopping them.

It's clear Biden and Obama abused the **** out of it. And will again. Try and get safeguards put in place whilst you can.

---

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
-Benjamin Franklin

---

Sounds smart.

Assume you big defund the police guy?

---

Is it possible, in your mind, to back the blue and also be a strong believer in individual liberty?

DeschutesAg said:

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That's life in the digital and electronic technology age. It sucks that national security comes attached with a necessary cost and high price to privacy. But it is necessary. We're in an arms race.

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Another thing that is necessary is a government that won't use FISA to try and frame Washington outsiders that may try to reform Washington.

Until DC corruption is MASSIVELY reduced, giving FISA to the government is more dangerous than taking it away from the government.

BusterAg said:

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flown-the-coop said:

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Tea Party said:

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flown-the-coop said:

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AggieEP said:

---

SquirrellyDan said:

---

There's nothing wrong with FISA, the problem is how it can be illegally applied. By definition it requires a warrant and must be focused on counter terrorism, counter proliferation, or foreign governments.

Any use outside of these requirements is illegal.

---

I can almost guarantee that myself and SquirrellyDan are the two on this board with the most experience with FISA. The training is extensive and thorough. The process is onerous to get approval if your target is even remotely questionable. Any normal person trying to circumvent the rules in place and do illegal crap is going to get caught. This is just a simple fact. No rando CIA guy is wasting his time going through the 702 process to spy on the Trump campaign unless he's being ordered to do it by a political appointee high up in the agency.

What you all are up in arms about is politicians using their influence to engage in illegal activity and spy on US persons without proper justification under the terms of the law. Getting rid of FISA will stop the lawful collection of intelligence on dangerous terrorists and criminals but I seriously doubt it would stop politicians from illegally spying on their opponents. Getting rid of the law doesn't make the tools to spy disappear.

Just like guns, guns don't kill people, bad people with a gun kill people. Don't blame the tools and over react and ban them.

---

Not sure why people are not more informed on what both of you have posted.

I am not for spying on American citizens but I also do not like the idea of jihadists having their phone calls be hidden from those charged with stopping them.

It's clear Biden and Obama abused the **** out of it. And will again. Try and get safeguards put in place whilst you can.

---

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
-Benjamin Franklin

---

Sounds smart.

Assume you big defund the police guy?

---

Is it possible, in your mind, to back the blue and also be a strong believer in individual liberty?

---

Possible, yes.

So we agree you have to draw the line somewhere. And that's called compromise and how our government works.

It would seem overall that FISA 702 is an area to debate.

So is the role of police, FBI, state police and such.

Does Ben Franklins quote apply to police? Or just to laws that allow us to surveil foreign operatives who express interest in attacking us and our interests?

InfantryAg said:

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f1ghtintexasaggie said:

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Ferg said:

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I just want them to spy on all those Chinese farmers that border our military bases.

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Fine, get a warrant.

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warrants are required.

The issue has not been the law, it's been people (LE and gullible/complicit judges) failing to actually follow the law; Or LE just flat lying to judges who don't due their diligence to ensure the legal standards are met.

The safeguard is supposed to be that prosecutions need to actually happen for the lying. Until this happens there can't be any trust that this won't be abused.

It's a good tool to find foreign criminals and terrorists, but the government is making it untenable by abusing it.

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This is how I see it also. The law has a process and safeguards, but like any law, if corrupt people are put in charge of carrying it out, they will ignore or bypass safeguards. This doesn't mean the law and its functions are not important or worth doing by some means. Our government bureacracy and justice system usually have reasonably sound processes and procedures but if corrupt persons are doong the work or oversight, then any law can be corrupted or exploited.

flown-the-coop said:

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BusterAg said:

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flown-the-coop said:

---

Tea Party said:

---

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
-Benjamin Franklin

---

Sounds smart.

Assume you big defund the police guy?

---

Is it possible, in your mind, to back the blue and also be a strong believer in individual liberty?

---

Possible, yes.

So we agree you have to draw the line somewhere. And that's called compromise and how our government works.

It would seem overall that FISA 702 is an area to debate.

So is the role of police, FBI, state police and such.

Does Ben Franklins quote apply to police? Or just to laws that allow us to surveil foreign operatives who express interest in attacking us and our interests?

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"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." != "Defund the police".

DeschutesAg said:

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That's life in the digital and electronic technology age. It sucks that national security comes attached with a necessary cost and high price to privacy. But it is necessary. We're in an arms race.

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Get a warrant. Otherwise, propose an amendment to the Constitution that resolves your fears without throwing my rights under the bus. So let's hear it: Warrant or amendment"? If the latter, let's see the language you propose.