wtmartinaggie said:

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It's about the gradual slide towards chaos. I appreciate your take and opinion considering the world is already rapidly approaching a place where international norms and law are anything but. It's tough to argue that we're already there so why even pretend. From an international standpoint, I agree with you.

Domestically, Trump should still get congressional approval within 60 days of this operation beginning, that is my opinion. I've taken some flak for that opinion, but nothing that's been said contrary to that belief has held any water whatsoever. All I've gotten is folks taking what I'm saying to an extreme like I personally want some sort of oversight, that I'm a bleeding heart liberal, or that our domestic law doesnt actually limit the president at all.

I will say this to the value of discussion. As we've debated (i use this word very loosely) this I've gone and read more about the WPA and believe Trump deserves the 60 days granted in the law to get approval or have his power limited by congressional action. If congress fails to act, that isn't the executive branch's fault as long as he goes through the process and seeks an AUMF from them.

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Nah, he's just doing Monroe Doctrine stuff combined with the war on drugs. He'll be fine.

Appreciate the reply and whilst I respect your position, I believe in a stronger executive and would be one to argue the WPA oversteps the balance of power.

A POTUS ability to command the military is one of the most sacred that exists in our government. This is not in the same regards as a king or dictator, but instead it recognizes that at some point the power needs to rest with a single decision maker. The whole camel is a horse designed by committee concept.

The WPA is likely unconstitutional, if SCOTUS ever grew some balls and decided to officiate the fight between POTUS and congress, but alas in 50 plus years they have been reluctant. So we get this *******ize structure where POTUS acts and congress can say he is being a dictator and not adhering to the WPA and SCOTUS saying not my fight.

Trump, as commander in chief, has the authority to do what he is doing. Congress has the option to stop him via impeachment, conviction, removal from office. As voters, we can choose another option in a few years.

wtmartinaggie said:

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If you think this is about drugs, you've got another thing coming.

It is, always has been, and always will be about oil and solidifying our interests in the western hemisphere. I hate to tell you this, but those in power do not care about poor people dying of drug overdoses. If they did, they'd do a better job funding a domestic solution in concert with these strikes.

Don't you find it odd that there's not a huge investment in limiting demand for these drugs to go along with what we're doing militarily?

Again, I'm okay with it and think it's a prudent geopolitical move. Just don't delude yourself into thinking it's some sort of noble crusade for the benefit of the American drug addict.

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Have you missed out on what we are doing to illegal alien drug business participants via Homan's roundups?

To say that combatting drug use is not a factor in this is a stretch. While there are certainly other motives as well, you can't just say that nobody cares that Americans are being harmed and killed by this stuff. Trump cares. And many others as well. Just about every American has been impacted in one way or another with friends or family or both suffering from this ugly business.

Would you have the same opinion if it were Joe Biden, Obama, or Bill Clinton?

I also wonder if your assumption of how SCOTUS would rule on the case is correct pending it continue it's gradual movement towards becoming too political.

I found this article interesting: Interpretation: Declare War Clause | Constitution Center

what are we doing to get people to stop using drugs? that's the root cause and that's what i meant. as long as there is money to be made, someone is going to step in and start selling. there will be a new supply chain created within a month.

If anything, this is a more efficient way to execute the mission we have been working for many years. Previous process: find go-fast, shoot out the engine, send a boarding team to arrest the crew, offload the drugs onto the ship, write up a report, sink the drug boat, take the crew into a nearby port to be handed over to DEA for prosecution, and eventually offload the drugs. All this takes a lot of time, and I'm unsure exactly how harsh a sentence the crew would get. Most were just very poor citizens getting paid next to nothing to go spend a miserable week at sea. I would honestly be surprised if many even understand how many of their peers are getting hit with missiles at sea right now. The new method certainly streamlines the process!

Buck Turgidson said:

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I like Rand Paul overall, but this is one of those issues where I'm content to let him sit in the corner and complain while everybody goes on about their business.

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He is also a holdout on ending the shutdown.

wtmartinaggie said:

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what are we doing to get people to stop using drugs? that's the root cause and that's what i meant. as long as there is money to be made, someone is going to step in and start selling. there will be a new supply chain created within a month.

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Well, we used to jail them for illegally using them, but then your party's DAs and AGs decided that was too mean and racist.

wtmartinaggie said:

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what are we doing to get people to stop using drugs? that's the root cause and that's what i meant. as long as there is money to be made, someone is going to step in and start selling. there will be a new supply chain created within a month.

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I wasn't aware that all of the drug user related charities and efforts that have been around forever stopped once we started bombing boats.

What would you have us do that no one else isn't already doing?

shiftyandquick said:

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Respect to Rand Paul who is consistent in asking for the Constitution to be followed, for the rule of law to be maintained. In today's United States, it is tantamount to political suicide for a Republican to even question Trump. Paul is one of the only GOPers who does so, some of the time.

Quote:

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"But the drug war … or the crime war has typically been something we do through law enforcement. And so far, they have alleged that these people are drug dealers. No one said their name. No one said what evidence. No one said whether they're armed. And we've had no evidence presented."

"So, at this point, I would call them extrajudicial killings. And this is akin to what China does, to what Iran does with drug dealers. They summarily execute people without presenting evidence to the public. So, it's wrong," Paul added.

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https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/5573870-rand-paul-caribbean-boat-strikes/

On the 57 dead figure. Source:

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2025/10/28/us/trump-news-japan#us-military-boat-strikes

This current policy reminds me of the Philippines and Rodrigo Duterte. The war on drugs became a recipe for extrajudicial murders. This kind of thing has played out over and over amongst these strongman regimes.

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I am sure if you lived in Kentucky you would still vote AGAINST Rand Paul.

Whereas I, though I disagree with his take on this issue, would still vote for him.

Your post wreaks of sanctimony. And we can see right through it.

OK. In your world using military force to Interdict large scale drug trafficking operations to the United States taking place in international waters that is supported by corrupt officials in foreign governments, possibly including the head of state, is a "slide towards chaos."

In my world, I see that as restoring order. The intel on these boats appears to be pretty good. They are carrying large quantities of lethal drugs bound for the US. The missiles used to destroy them are not creating any collateral damage at tribal wedding parties or destroying apartments over guerilla tunnel complexes. In my opinion this is a 101 level application of A. T. Mahan's principles of preserving national power by controlling the SLOCS.

It's also not a case where the weapon is obscenely more expensive than the target. The cartels are losing more economically in these engagements than the US is expending to sink them. If they didn't think it was worth the risk, they wouldn't be trying to use boats to skuggle drugs. President Trump has altered the arithmetic they used to use to calculate risk during the Biden administration.

My opinion on what laws are constitutional and what the executive power entails are wholly independent.

I have long warned that the actions Dems took against Trump going back to his first term would ultimately serve to strengthen the Executive. The Dems made a very poor decision in not checking Obama or Geriatric Obama over 12 years, then the have tried to block Trump from taking ANY executive action.

Something in that equation has to give. And bother the public's and courts reaction will ultimately not be favorable of the Dems for not behaving justly, fairly. Americans don't like that.

That said. If any current leaders of the Dems indicated for 2028 were to be elected, we are invariably ****ed.

Wouldn't that be the last thing to suspect…..Rand Paul being bought off by the cartels.

FCBlitz said:

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Wouldn't that be the last thing to suspect…..Rand Paul being bought off by the cartels.

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Dow Chemical Trust, Alpin Globalist Foundation, or Mexican?

again, not my party. thanks for playing though.

it's been going on longer than 2008, but agreed obama pressed it hard and pushed it much more than his predecessors

do you also believe that the US resuming nuclear testing because others have done so is a prudent strategic move?

It turns out that these boats have nothing (or little to do with) fentanyl by DOD's admission. These are cocaine boats. And they say killing them is justified because cocaine is a gateway to fentanyl. And they also have no idea who they have killed.

Does that inspire confidence?

https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/dod-t-killed-military-strikes-190346661.html

Yes

Irrelevant.

They are still running drugs, and cocaine is often laced with Fentanyl.

shiftyandquick said:

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It turns out that these boats have nothing (or little to do with) fentanyl by DOD's admission. These are cocaine boats. And they say killing them is justified because cocaine is a gateway to fentanyl. And they also have no idea who they have killed.

Does that inspire confidence?

https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/dod-t-killed-military-strikes-190346661.html

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Defense Department officials do not know precisely who they have killed in multiple military strikes against alleged drug smuggling boats in the Caribbean that have claimed the lives of at least 57 people, according to Democratic lawmakers who attended a classified House briefing on the issue Thursday.

"[The department officials] said that they do not need to positively identify individuals on these vessels to do the strikes, they just need to prove a connection to smuggling," said Rep. Sara Jacobs (D-Calif.). "When we tried to get more information, we did not get satisfactory answers."

Democrats who attended the briefing said Republicans also pressed the administration officials for more information, which suggests there is some bipartisan momentum for more oversight.

But Rep. Jason Crow (D-Colo.), said Thursday's briefing gave him little confidence that the new approach is making a significant difference in that fight.

Democratic leaders expressed concern about that event, but Republican lawmakers said the meeting was meant to be an informal event to address specific lawmaker requests, and not a formal briefing for all members of the chamber. Republican senators said they are working to schedule a broader briefing for all members soon.


House Democrats said they also hope to have additional classified briefings on the issue, hopefully with legal experts in attendance next time.




Gee whiz Wally, I wonder what all of these have in common.

Ouch.

The truth will come out in full eventually about what level of evidence they had about this, why they did, what communications they had about this, etc.

If Hegseth has your full confidence then rest assured, then you will be very satisfied with the process.

shiftyandquick said:

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The truth will come out in full eventually about what level of evidence they had about this, why they did, what communications they had about this, etc.

If Hegseth has your full confidence then rest assured, then you will be very satisfied with the process.

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Who do YOU think were on those boats?

shiftyandquick said:

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The truth will come out in full eventually about what level of evidence they had about this, why they did, what communications they had about this, etc.

If Hegseth has your full confidence then rest assured, then you will be very satisfied with the process.

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As a Reagan Republican you must be satisfied as well since this resembles a lot of the things we did with the CIA in the 80's drug war.

You were on board with all of that too right? And Oliver North, being a "Reagan republican" and all I just assume so.

I've reserved comment and I've been very critical of Trump

... but this is an absolute baller Reagan-esque move. Move over Iran-Contra.

wtmartinaggie said:

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what are we doing to get people to stop using drugs? that's the root cause and that's what i meant. as long as there is money to be made, someone is going to step in and start selling. there will be a new supply chain created within a month.

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Wipe them out, the same. Lather, rinse, repeat….

Tony Franklins Other Shoe said:

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shiftyandquick said:

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It turns out that these boats have nothing (or little to do with) fentanyl by DOD's admission. These are cocaine boats. And they say killing them is justified because cocaine is a gateway to fentanyl. And they also have no idea who they have killed.

Does that inspire confidence?

https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/dod-t-killed-military-strikes-190346661.html

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Defense Department officials do not know precisely who they have killed in multiple military strikes against alleged drug smuggling boats in the Caribbean that have claimed the lives of at least 57 people, according to Democratic lawmakers who attended a classified House briefing on the issue Thursday.

"[The department officials] said that they do not need to positively identify individuals on these vessels to do the strikes, they just need to prove a connection to smuggling," said Rep. Sara Jacobs (D-Calif.). "When we tried to get more information, we did not get satisfactory answers."

Democrats who attended the briefing said Republicans also pressed the administration officials for more information, which suggests there is some bipartisan momentum for more oversight.

But Rep. Jason Crow (D-Colo.), said Thursday's briefing gave him little confidence that the new approach is making a significant difference in that fight.

Democratic leaders expressed concern about that event, but Republican lawmakers said the meeting was meant to be an informal event to address specific lawmaker requests, and not a formal briefing for all members of the chamber. Republican senators said they are working to schedule a broader briefing for all members soon.


House Democrats said they also hope to have additional classified briefings on the issue, hopefully with legal experts in attendance next time.




Gee whiz Wally, I wonder what all of these have in common.

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For those who think we or our representatives are not getting adequate information, let's not forget the abysmal track record for leaks from democrat sources in the elected and unelected deep state bodies and bureaucracies in recent decades.

These operations are unquestionably involving some pretty good intelligence methodologies and there aren't enough Depends in Washington to stop all the leaks that are likely still occuring.

Old Sarge said:

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wtmartinaggie said:

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what are we doing to get people to stop using drugs? that's the root cause and that's what i meant. as long as there is money to be made, someone is going to step in and start selling. there will be a new supply chain created within a month.

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Wipe them out, the same. Lather, rinse, repeat….

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Drug users or drug suppliers?

They're two sides of the same coin.

As long as young kids are dying because of pills that look like candy, keep blowing them out of the water.

I don't care, Margaret. We're killing narco-terrorists.

No Spin Ag said:

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Old Sarge said:

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wtmartinaggie said:

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what are we doing to get people to stop using drugs? that's the root cause and that's what i meant. as long as there is money to be made, someone is going to step in and start selling. there will be a new supply chain created within a month.

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Wipe them out, the same. Lather, rinse, repeat….

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Drug users or drug suppliers?

They're two sides of the same coin.

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To clear this up for you:

Wipe out the traffickers where they stand (or sit in a boat). Eventually, when enough of the Narco-terrorists die from the sky, they won't have anyone willing to run their poison. OK, yes but the number will be greatly reduced, and will dwindle in numbers exponentially as it continues.

As far as the users, Darwin's Law will eventually win out. They will start committing "more" crimes to facilitate their habit, get arrested and caught up by the system, or substitute drugs, and take themselves out. A few will find a route to clean themselves up, and good for them if they do.

We cannot continue to lose our youth to this scourge.

No Spin Ag said:

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Old Sarge said:

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wtmartinaggie said:

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what are we doing to get people to stop using drugs? that's the root cause and that's what i meant. as long as there is money to be made, someone is going to step in and start selling. there will be a new supply chain created within a month.

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Wipe them out, the same. Lather, rinse, repeat….

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Drug users or drug suppliers?

They're two sides of the same coin.

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Yea, I think that's a bit simplistic and ignores who is taking advantage of who.

Drug users of the illegal variety are breaking the law. But in most cases they are addicts, a disease, for which they may or may not have been able to seek treatment or want treatment for.

But the drug supplier, the dealer? Oh they are not just breaking a law technically, they are breaking the social contract with your fellow man in your community. That's a special kind of evil. They aren't just filling a need, they are feeding a disease and doing so in every creative ways to make the disease worse.

So nah, narco thugs can get the flaming bullets of death all day long. Users, offer help. Ones that refuse or continually relapse, put them all on Crackhead Island and airdrop food, drugs and baby oil on periodically.

Same dudes that idolize Reagan who was just say no out of one side and running drugs to fund terrorist out the other

flown-the-coop said:

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No Spin Ag said:

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Old Sarge said:

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wtmartinaggie said:

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what are we doing to get people to stop using drugs? that's the root cause and that's what i meant. as long as there is money to be made, someone is going to step in and start selling. there will be a new supply chain created within a month.

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I agree. There has to be some accountability to the users.
Wipe them out, the same. Lather, rinse, repeat….

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Drug users or drug suppliers?

They're two sides of the same coin.

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Yea, I think that's a bit simplistic and ignores who is taking advantage of who.

Drug users of the illegal variety are breaking the law. But in most cases they are addicts, a disease, for which they may or may not have been able to seek treatment or want treatment for.

But the drug supplier, the dealer? Oh they are not just breaking a law technically, they are breaking the social contract with your fellow man in your community. That's a special kind of evil. They aren't just filling a need, they are feeding a disease and doing so in every creative ways to make the disease worse.

So nah, narco thugs can get the flaming bullets of death all day long. Users, offer help. Ones that refuse or continually relapse, put them all on Crackhead Island and airdrop food, drugs and baby oil on periodically.

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I agree that there needs to be some accountability to the users. They are a big part of the problem. Only my problem in that my tax dollars go to it.