Tom Fox said:

---

texagbeliever said:

---

Tom Fox said:

---

texagbeliever said:

---

Tom Fox said:

---

texagbeliever said:

---

I have changed my mind recently on this idea of society undergoing a great "feminization".

Instead I posit that this is merely the natural progression of an increasingly selfish society.

A selfish society glorifies:
Hook-up culture, abortion, DINKs, materialism, rugged individualism, short term (YOLO), sexualization (only fans, porn, strip clubs)

A selfish society minimizes:
Family (kids and elderly), community, church, discipline, long term, commitment (marriage), chastity

Calling it a result of feminism is a lazy at best take of pointing blame. Generally also pointing blame at something so big you have no influence over it. But if the ill is really selfishness, I could see how it would be easy for each of us to see how we contribute to that problem. That means we have to accept we have some responsibility. But if that correctly identifies the problem it means we can actually work on a good solution.

---

The bolded is a virtue that must be encouraged in our society like it once was.

---

Self-reliance is a good goal to strive for but not seeing your role in helping others less fortunate is bad and not virtuous.

---

If we are talking about national defense service or public service, then I could not agree more.

If we are talking about paying for individual family needs, we will have to agree to disagree. Each family should take care of themselves or resort to charity. I am fully prepared to step in and help my friends and extended family. The government should have zero role in that endeavor.

---

This relies on the belief that an individual can just work hard and be self-reliant. While true in most cases it fails in many.

It is interesting when you consider the words history. Made famous by Herbert Hoover on the eve of the great depression. A time in which large monopolies effectively created indentured servants. A seamstress working 12 hours a day wasnt ever going to pull herself out of her poverty experience.

So for many, working hard actually was not a solution for personal success or progress. Which is obvious, opportunity and fortune play a big role in both of those as well.

Yes it is good for someone to work hard and to desire to be productive but rugged individualism goes too far and is a lie. Being dependent on someone in old age is not a bad thing. It is a stage of life. Being dependent on a spouse or kid is not a bad thing. Humans are relational and as such a philosophy that is a-relational goes against the basic human DNA.

---

I agree with this. You just should not be dependent on the government and therefore other people's tax money. It it is your family's responsibility or voluntary giving from private citizens. Entitlements must end.

---

Yes, i think we are largely in agreement. I dont believe in government welfare either. But the extreme libertarian other side is a bad lens to view life. I get that in our current social environment there is a desire to clearly declare opposition to our social net friendly view.

by "my rules of debate" do you mean stating premises and then looking for areas where we agree or disagree?

you said "The author to me is saying that male change to female and feminine effect on that is causing the problems". I'm trying to go from what the author is saying "to you" and instead look at what the author is actually saying. she was kind enough to provide four concrete statements that summarize her argument. so far discussing what she actually wrote is "stupidly obvious" to you - but you also don't agree with it. does that make it not obvious, or does that make you stupid?

there's no gotcha here. you said you don't agree and that there isn't a great feminization, just more selfishness, and that this take is "a lazy at best take of pointing blame". the problem is, selfishness and feminization aren't mutually exclusive. selfish masculine behavior may cause different societal problems than selfish feminine behavior. since human selfishness is a given, but the masculinity or femininity of our institutions is not, it seems worthwhile to examine the question of - as the masculinity or femininity of our institutions change, does this have a positive or negative effect on society?

it would be pretty funny if this is just a male-female disconnect, where i want to talk about what the author of the article actually says, and you just want to talk about what it means to you and how it makes you feel.

I asserted a different definition of feminity. That feminity like masculine can not be bad. By them being separate words would imply they are not the same. Saying feminism is the problem is in my view a false statement. Just like the left saying masculinity is the problem is a false statement.

I generally try not to make arguments like a leftist but replace right wing buzz words instead of left.

i dont see anywhere where you put a different definition of femininity. femininity is the quality of being a woman. i don't even know what a different definition would be, to be honest.

the author didn't say "feminism is the problem" in a general sense. this is why it's worthwhile to actually look at the points she makes, to see where it is you think you disagree.

so far we've agreed that men and women are different and solve problems and socialize in different ways. the next question is regarding whether that will automatically mean that institutions that go from being dominated by men to demographically female will change according to those differences.

there's no "problem" asserted in that statement, and there's no value judgment being made. we haven't made it there yet.

texagbeliever said:

---

Tom Fox said:

---

texagbeliever said:

---

Tom Fox said:

---

texagbeliever said:

---

Tom Fox said:

---

texagbeliever said:

---

I have changed my mind recently on this idea of society undergoing a great "feminization".

Instead I posit that this is merely the natural progression of an increasingly selfish society.

A selfish society glorifies:
Hook-up culture, abortion, DINKs, materialism, rugged individualism, short term (YOLO), sexualization (only fans, porn, strip clubs)

A selfish society minimizes:
Family (kids and elderly), community, church, discipline, long term, commitment (marriage), chastity

Calling it a result of feminism is a lazy at best take of pointing blame. Generally also pointing blame at something so big you have no influence over it. But if the ill is really selfishness, I could see how it would be easy for each of us to see how we contribute to that problem. That means we have to accept we have some responsibility. But if that correctly identifies the problem it means we can actually work on a good solution.

---

The bolded is a virtue that must be encouraged in our society like it once was.

---

Self-reliance is a good goal to strive for but not seeing your role in helping others less fortunate is bad and not virtuous.

---

If we are talking about national defense service or public service, then I could not agree more.

If we are talking about paying for individual family needs, we will have to agree to disagree. Each family should take care of themselves or resort to charity. I am fully prepared to step in and help my friends and extended family. The government should have zero role in that endeavor.

---

This relies on the belief that an individual can just work hard and be self-reliant. While true in most cases it fails in many.

It is interesting when you consider the words history. Made famous by Herbert Hoover on the eve of the great depression. A time in which large monopolies effectively created indentured servants. A seamstress working 12 hours a day wasnt ever going to pull herself out of her poverty experience.

So for many, working hard actually was not a solution for personal success or progress. Which is obvious, opportunity and fortune play a big role in both of those as well.

Yes it is good for someone to work hard and to desire to be productive but rugged individualism goes too far and is a lie. Being dependent on someone in old age is not a bad thing. It is a stage of life. Being dependent on a spouse or kid is not a bad thing. Humans are relational and as such a philosophy that is a-relational goes against the basic human DNA.

---

I agree with this. You just should not be dependent on the government and therefore other people's tax money. It it is your family's responsibility or voluntary giving from private citizens. Entitlements must end.

---

Yes, i think we are largely in agreement. I dont believe in government welfare either. But the extreme libertarian other side is a bad lens to view life. I get that in our current social environment there is a desire to clearly declare opposition to our social net friendly view.

---

I'll push back on you again because we need more rugged individualism currently in our society not less.

I'll demonstrate it to you. Let's say on a sliding scale that 0 is pure socialism and 10 libertarian anarchy.

In the US were are currently about a 2.5 on that scale with cradle to grave entitlements that make up 2/3 of a national budget with at 38 trillion deficit being administered by faceless bureaucrats that have zero human relational interaction with the recipients which is why their is zero accountability and massive fraud.

When we get to about a 7 on the scale we can start to dial back the rugged individualism.

All welfare should be voluntary transactions from individual in your community that know and can hold you accountable.

Social media, entertainment, and academia have brainwashed women into joining the left in waging the war on men for being oppressive to them. Also, they want control over their body and abortion on demand access. They believe that conservatives are passing anti-abortion laws to prevent them from achieving education and career goals by forcing them to give birth to babies they don't want. In addition, they believe liberals will help close the gender gap at every level of education of educational attainment. For these reasons, these women believe that the liberals will help them to achieve the myth of having it all on their terms.

I have gone on a total of 5 dates with 2 liberal women I met from the Austin Singles 30s to 40s between May and August, and I learned that I cannot reason with them. On a 3rd date with the 2nd woman, I asked her what her most important political issues were, and she said equal pay and abortion. She kept ranting that women shouldn't have to travel 3 states to get an abortion, how President Trump is a Nazi, and how ICE is just detaining people based on their skin colors. I articulated why I voted for Trump and why good nations enforce their borders. This is why I can never commit, much less marry a liberal woman.

Good looking women have ALWAYS had an advantage over men…

All this crap is about giving UGLY women an advantage…

Iraq2xVeteran said:

---

Social media, entertainment, and academia have brainwashed women into joining the left in waging the war on men for being oppressive to them. Also, they want control over their body and abortion on demand access. They believe that conservatives are passing anti-abortion laws to prevent them from achieving education and career goals by forcing them to give birth to babies they don't want. In addition, they believe liberals will help close the gender gap at every level of education of educational attainment. For these reasons, these women believe that the liberals will help them to achieve the myth of having it all on their terms.

I have gone on a total of 5 dates with 2 liberal women I met from the Austin Singles 30s to 40s between May and August, and I learned that I cannot reason with them. On a 3rd date with the 2nd woman, I asked her what her most important political issues were, and she said equal pay and abortion. She kept ranting that women shouldn't have to travel 3 states to get an abortion, how President Trump is a Nazi, and how ICE is just detaining people based on their skin colors. I articulated why I voted for Trump and why good nations enforce their borders. This is why I can never commit, much less marry a liberal woman.

---

Not saying you should but did you try asking "Did you get any of that from something other than media, school or other people quoting the same source?"

The focus on abortion by the liberal women is interesting and a bit of a dilemma. The main driver is this whole issue of not settling whether it is killing. The achilles heel of the argument is not abortion being legal, but that it is also private. We don't allow private executions. Would there be less if it had to be on record. That is why the question whether its a murder or not is a big one. Pro-Life would of course immediately say yes, but speaking in legal terms.

The childless Corporate America female will be the death of this country.

One of the more interesting threads we've had in a while. Coming back to this one later so I can read on computer.

maroonthrunthru said:

---

Good looking women have ALWAYS had an advantage over men…

All this crap is about giving UGLY women an advantage…

---

Which reminds me of Steve Sailer's Law of Female Journalism:

The most heartfelt articles by female journalists tend to be demands that social values be overturned in order that, Come the Revolution, the journalist herself will be considered hotter-looking.

I had a professional career with a large nationwide corporation whose home office is in Los Angeles. My last supervisor was a woman who had worked at my job position for a very short while after being employed as a secretary (which was her highest level of incompetence). She was buddies with Nurse Ratched, the zone manager, a childless woman who had spent less than in year in the profession. She also happened to be an Aggie education major, which of course, is a perfect background for a level 2 business manager.

This is not new. Women ruin the workplace. Any man who is honest with himself would agree.

EclipseAg said:

---

maroonthrunthru said:

---

Good looking women have ALWAYS had an advantage over men…

All this crap is about giving UGLY women an advantage…

---

Which reminds me of Steve Sailer's Law of Female Journalism:

The most heartfelt articles by female journalists tend to be demands that social values be overturned in order that, Come the Revolution, the journalist herself will be considered hotter-looking.

---

Rush Limbaugh frequently said the feminist movement was about giving ugly women better access to men.

There’s a very Soviet vibe to a guy who was hounded out of the company he founded because of exactly the dynamics Andrews describes being like "But is it true, really? What’s the evidence?"

Man, what an awful life that must be. https://t.co/Yau6vKEqBo

— Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry (@pegobry_en) October 19, 2025

his assertion isnt that the article has a false premise, its that the writing is sloppy. his next threaded tweet links to an essay that he believes is more thorough and draws roughly the same conclusion

1. What happens when women, for the first time in history, gain real cultural power? I explore this question in “From Worriers to Warriors: The Cultural Rise of Women,” now in press at @JConIdeas:https://t.co/Mc77pST0k4 pic.twitter.com/CCfIGAQyMx

— Cory Clark (@ImHardcory) October 18, 2025

Iraq2xVeteran said:

---

Social media, entertainment, and academia have brainwashed women into joining the left in waging the war on men for being oppressive to them. Also, they want control over their body and abortion on demand access. They believe that conservatives are passing anti-abortion laws to prevent them from achieving education and career goals by forcing them to give birth to babies they don't want. In addition, they believe liberals will help close the gender gap at every level of education of educational attainment. For these reasons, these women believe that the liberals will help them to achieve the myth of having it all on their terms.

I have gone on a total of 5 dates with 2 liberal women I met from the Austin Singles 30s to 40s between May and August, and I learned that I cannot reason with them. On a 3rd date with the 2nd woman, I asked her what her most important political issues were, and she said equal pay and abortion. She kept ranting that women shouldn't have to travel 3 states to get an abortion, how President Trump is a Nazi, and how ICE is just detaining people based on their skin colors. I articulated why I voted for Trump and why good nations enforce their borders. This is why I can never commit, much less marry a liberal woman.

---

So let me see if I have this right...two women, 5 dates? So you actually went out with them more than once...good lord, did you fall and hit your head or something?

Quote:

---

Other writers who have proposed their own versions of the Great Feminization thesis, such as Noah Carl or Bo Winegard and Cory Clark, who looked at feminization's effects on academia, offer survey data showing sex differences in political values.

---

Andrews references Clark's research in her essay. They reach the same conclusion about average group differences between men and women.

Yglesias agrees that the conclusion is correct. He doesn't refute that she correctly interpreted the research she references throughout the article. He just didn't appreciate how she said it and that a critical lens was directed towards Civil Rights law.

Follow up. Same author.

https://thelampmagazine.com/issues/issue-21/against-human-resources

Society for decades: Move over, boys! The future is female! Boys don’t need support and resources because they have privilege! Who needs men, anyway? Girl power!

Society today: Where are all the ‘economically attractive men’ for our women? Ugh, men!

🤡🌎 indeed… https://t.co/qPF5jxFOZH

— Lisa Britton (@LisaBritton) October 23, 2025

StandUpforAmerica said:

---

Society for decades: Move over, boys! The future is female! Boys don’t need support and resources because they have privilege! Who needs men, anyway? Girl power!

Society today: Where are all the ‘economically attractive men’ for our women? Ugh, men!

🤡🌎 indeed… https://t.co/qPF5jxFOZH

— Lisa Britton (@LisaBritton) October 23, 2025

---

Women: "Men are paid more than women... I want to be paid as much as men!"
Also women: "Where are all the highly paid men???".

StandUpforAmerica said:

---

Society for decades: Move over, boys! The future is female! Boys don’t need support and resources because they have privilege! Who needs men, anyway? Girl power!

Society today: Where are all the ‘economically attractive men’ for our women? Ugh, men!

🤡🌎 indeed… https://t.co/qPF5jxFOZH

— Lisa Britton (@LisaBritton) October 23, 2025

---

The interesting rub here is that the economically viable man, man who takes care of his fitness, and was given above average genetics kills it in the dating world in terms of getting dates. The problem is finding a good woman to settle with. Too many women are obsessed with reality TV show and materialistic with no interesting hobbies or family values. I imagine this dynamic was flipped years ago, albiet different traits for each sex in terms of whats desirable

whytho987654 said:

---

StandUpforAmerica said:

---

Society for decades: Move over, boys! The future is female! Boys don’t need support and resources because they have privilege! Who needs men, anyway? Girl power!

Society today: Where are all the ‘economically attractive men’ for our women? Ugh, men!

🤡🌎 indeed… https://t.co/qPF5jxFOZH

— Lisa Britton (@LisaBritton) October 23, 2025

---

The interesting rub here is that the economically viable man, man who takes care of his fitness, and was given above average genetics kills it in the dating world in terms of getting dates. The problem is finding a good woman to settle with. Too many women are obsessed with reality TV show and materialistic with no interesting hobbies or family values. I imagine this dynamic was flipped years ago, albiet different traits for each sex in terms of whats desirable

---

Women have ruined their value to society in the last 50 years. Yes, I tell my wife this when we discuss stuff. Men have become more valuable, they do more than 50 years ago. They do ALL of what they did 50 years ago, and then some. Women? They are busy saying "not my job" and "pay me more". So other than making babies, society doesn't really need them anymore. Once Musk figures out how to make AI babies, bye bye women.

high quality men are a higher quality in many regards, but there are fewer of them. For every man that learned the lessons in emotional availability and sharing the workload, then adding it to his toolbox, there's a man out there taking advantage of the fact that women are more prevalent in the workforce and being every part of the "feminization" problem the article complains about.

Some men have gotten better, many men have gotten far worse.

swimmerbabe11 said:

---

high quality men are a higher quality in many regards, but there are fewer of them. For every man that learned the lessons in emotional availability and sharing the workload, then adding it to his toolbox, there's a man out there taking advantage of the fact that women are more prevalent in the workforce and being every part of the "feminization" problem the article complains about.

Some men have gotten better, many men have gotten far worse.

---

Emotional availability? Sharing the workload? Are these feminine values treated as neutral or true neutral? Where do they come from? Who defines them?

Men are better now because they act more like women, you see.

Jack Tripper. The beginning and end of it all.

Owlagdad said:

---

Started with teachers being told NOT to let little Johnny answer the question, because Suzy was getting self-conscious and the reason she wasnt any good at math was because Johnny always beat her to the punch. So, we let Johhny waste away, fed him meds and told him to be super sensitive to the needs of all females.

---

The feminization of public schools has been a disaster. I see it every day. The sad thing is these kids are suffering because of left wing policies (like everyone does).