YouBet said:

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Pookers said:

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HollywoodBQ said:

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With the idea that AI is going to replace all these workers in India doing menial tasks, let me ask you this...

For outsourcers like HCL, Infosys, etc., how are they going to bill hours for AI?

Those companies aren't looking to create operational efficiencies for their customers. Kaizen is Japanese word, not Hindi.

The outsourcers are simply looking to bill hours for warm bodies at a lower price.

TCS employs more than 600,000 people. Certainly the vast majority of those folks are probably useless. But, they can bill hours.

Another layer here is what I'll call obfuscation and creating friction. The outsourcers need that.

I'm currently doing business with a well known, household name, American brand. This company has one American person based in the USA and they use 3 different outsourcers for various IT infrastructure components - think Network, Cloud, Systems Administration. It takes 15 Indians on a call to get anything done. This could all be accomplished by 3 Americans but... bill rates. Nobody is looking at efficiency or productivity.

It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

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Once you get a jeet into CIO level they gut the entire organization and bring in their own. Americans are ******ed for allowing this.

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Happened at my former corporate employer. Gutted and outsourced IT to India for "cost savings". I told my leadership peers when we did that it would fail and it did, so after 10 years that tried to bring it back in-house. I now hear they are pushing it all back to India because there is an Indian guy on the BoD who is pushing it.

Flat out ethnic nepotism.

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Think about who won and who lost.

US CEO: Winner, made millions
Indian employees: Winner, made billions
US Employees: BIG L ON THEIR FOREHEADS, got laid off and got homeless

We should stop laughing and being condescending to the Indians when they clearly ate our steak (I know they don't eat beef!) and figure what to do that is good for us.

DallasAg 94 said:

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Sid Farkas said:

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Decline of India

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Anyone here actually been to India? There's not much room left to fall.

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I just got back.

It was Amazing.

I've been to ****tier places (can't disclose, but look to see who is below India). I've been to nicer places (Vienna).

If you measure against America, in terms of Western standards, you'll find it as a lower place. If you measure it based on your perception... you'll enjoy it. Never feared for my life like "some" places.

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Yup.
Other than racist/dumb "our culture is better" remarks, not much else to see on this thread. We got played. We were had. Gypped. Taken for a ride. By Indians/India.

They were smarter than us, they took our own big buzzwords like globalization and turned it against us to make us poor. Props to them.

We should be admiring how they did it instead if the sour grapes approach we see on TA.

And of course, we have to reverse it but the Boomers will oppose that because they stand to gain from more offshoring.

HollywoodBQ said:

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Rocky Rider said:

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"It takes 15 Indians on a call to get anything done. This could all be accomplished by 3 Americans but... bill rates. Nobody is looking at efficiency or productivity."

Not disagreeing with your point, but my experience was the Indians would work when I need them too, even if I needed them 60 hours/week for an extended period of time. Only 1/4 (or less) of Americans would do this

Edit: sometimes schedule is king.

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My experience is that the Indians need to work 60 hours per week to accomplish the same thing an American could have accomplished in 6 hours per week.

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More nuanced.

If you hire worthless Indians from WITCH companies like Infosys, they will take naps, snooze, flirt, poo, pee and waste time and bill lots of hours to foolish Americans who still think they are getting a great deal.

Hire smart Indians from IITs. Those were common in the US in the 90s. Real smart people, can do things in 30 minutes.

So it depends on whom you talk to. America has hired the dumbest sector of Indians for peanuts and wondering why we got monkeys.

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You probably like to vacation Internationally with all the other Americans and where only English is spoken.

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IIIHorn said:

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India is a caste of billions.

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another good one.

Instead of getting our jollies by dissing Indians and throwing racist taunts at them, why don't we try to figure out how to get our jobs back?

Or have we given up on that battle?

Not sure this is a fair post. All things are relative. There have been numerous different regions / empires that were on top of the heap (and now in the dust bin of history) that ultimately lost the title due to a variety of factors with technical innovation / industrialization being the most prevalent example. Ironic considering India seems to have gone all-in on IT being the way out of their extreme poverty.

If AI ends up being the disruptor everyone thinks it will be, they are screwed if they don't diversify their strengths.

infinity ag said:

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HollywoodBQ said:

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Rocky Rider said:

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"It takes 15 Indians on a call to get anything done. This could all be accomplished by 3 Americans but... bill rates. Nobody is looking at efficiency or productivity."

Not disagreeing with your point, but my experience was the Indians would work when I need them too, even if I needed them 60 hours/week for an extended period of time. Only 1/4 (or less) of Americans would do this

Edit: sometimes schedule is king.

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My experience is that the Indians need to work 60 hours per week to accomplish the same thing an American could have accomplished in 6 hours per week.

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More nuanced.

If you hire worthless Indians from WITCH companies like Infosys, they will take naps, snooze, flirt, poo, pee and waste time and bill lots of hours to foolish Americans who still think they are getting a great deal.

Hire smart Indians from IITs. Those were common in the US in the 90s. Real smart people, can do things in 30 minutes.

So it depends on whom you talk to. America has hired the dumbest sector of Indians for peanuts and wondering why we got monkeys.

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I work with a guy who graduated from a top school in India.
He's great on most things. But, there's one of him. There aren't 5 of him.

infinity ag said:

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Instead of getting our jollies by dissing Indians and throwing racist taunts at them, why don't we try to figure out how to get our jobs back?

Or have we given up on that battle?

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This will likely take care of itself as de-globalization / regionalism continues.

My eldest SIL worked in the oilfield chemical business as an international troubleshooter. He has been to several of the stans, Belgian Congo, offshore Mexico but after he was sent to India for 2 weeks he changed jobs in the company which involved moving and selling his house in Houston to make sure he wouldn't be sent back to India.

Enough about India Decline and IT. IDGAD

Let's hear about and see some hot Indian women. I'm intrigued.

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India (the region) was the richest regioneven until 1700AD when it accounted for 25% of world's GDP. From 1000AD it was under Muslim occupation and even then it was doing well. The Europeans (Brits, Dutch, French etc) took over then and looted the country even more and brought it to about 2% of world's GDP. Sure, they built railways but it was to transport their own loot.

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I keep seeing the "looting" terminology being brought up for the colonization era. Assuming a $2 Trillion world GDP in 1700, that puts India at $500 billion. In 1945, their GDP was still right at $500 billion. Granted, their population did double during that time. So if the same level of per capita productivity had been maintained, they should have been at $1 Trillion. Still, that would have been only 8% of the global GDP instead of 4%. By and large they produced the same amount the same way that they had for centuries before.

That relative decline is not "looting". That's a lack of investment. From 1700 to 1945, Europe and North America industrialized. Asia (excepting Japan), Africa, and South America did not. We assume that all progress for all people is linear and always up. It's not. History shows that progress occurs in steps, not a slope. It's just our recent history shows these steps are occuring at a faster pace, so it appears more constant.

Did colonizing powers have trade rules that "unfairly" benefitted them? Yes. But it's been 80 years since they got their independence. At some point you have to own your baggage and move forward. Blaming Britain at this point would have been like us blaming them for our Civil War.

infinity ag said:

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DrEvazanPhD said:

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When did the British leave? That's when the decline started

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You are wrong.


India (the region) was the richest regioneven until 1700AD when it accounted for 25% of world's GDP. From 1000AD it was under Muslim occupation and even then it was doing well. The Europeans (Brits, Dutch, French etc) took over then and looted the country even more and brought it to about 2% of world's GDP. Sure, they built railways but it was to transport their own loot.

You cannot break a country for 1000 years, change the culture beyond repair and expect it to be put back together in just 80 years. Even the US won't go back from 30+ years of looting by US corporations with outsourcing.

I won't call your post racist, but it does come close (in addition to being ignorant).

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Fortunately, I don't really give a ****.

And yay! 300+ years ago it was kind of ok. Egypt was amazing in 2000 BC. It's a dump now. Rome dominated Europe for 1000 years. Now Italian organization is something of a punchline. The Mongols ruled most of Asia and good chunk of Europe.

Go back to your usual CEO envy schtick.

DrEvazanPhD said:

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infinity ag said:

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DrEvazanPhD said:

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When did the British leave? That's when the decline started

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You are wrong.


India (the region) was the richest regioneven until 1700AD when it accounted for 25% of world's GDP. From 1000AD it was under Muslim occupation and even then it was doing well. The Europeans (Brits, Dutch, French etc) took over then and looted the country even more and brought it to about 2% of world's GDP. Sure, they built railways but it was to transport their own loot.

You cannot break a country for 1000 years, change the culture beyond repair and expect it to be put back together in just 80 years. Even the US won't go back from 30+ years of looting by US corporations with outsourcing.

I won't call your post racist, but it does come close (in addition to being ignorant).

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Fortunately, I don't really give a ****.

And yay! 300+ years ago it was kind of ok. Egypt was amazing in 2000 BC. It's a dump now. Rome dominated Europe for 1000 years. Now Italian organization is something of a punchline. The Mongols ruled most of Asia and good chunk of Europe.

Go back to your usual CEO envy schtick.

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No gives an F whether you give an F or not. You aren't special.

I was giving you the reason why things are the way they are and nothing to do with "our culture is better than theirs".

Where did your PhD from? University of Granada? heh.They need to revoke it reading your posts.

FarmerJohn said:

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Quote:

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India (the region) was the richest regioneven until 1700AD when it accounted for 25% of world's GDP. From 1000AD it was under Muslim occupation and even then it was doing well. The Europeans (Brits, Dutch, French etc) took over then and looted the country even more and brought it to about 2% of world's GDP. Sure, they built railways but it was to transport their own loot.

---

I keep seeing the "looting" terminology being brought up for the colonization era. Assuming a $2 Trillion world GDP in 1700, that puts India at $500 billion. In 1945, their GDP was still right at $500 billion. Granted, their population did double during that time. So if the same level of per capita productivity had been maintained, they should have been at $1 Trillion. Still, that would have been only 8% of the global GDP instead of 4%. By and large they produced the same amount the same way that they had for centuries before.

That relative decline is not "looting". That's a lack of investment. From 1700 to 1945, Europe and North America industrialized. Asia (excepting Japan), Africa, and South America did not. We assume that all progress for all people is linear and always up. It's not. History shows that progress occurs in steps, not a slope. It's just our recent history shows these steps are occuring at a faster pace, so it appears more constant.

Did colonizing powers have trade rules that "unfairly" benefitted them? Yes. But it's been 80 years since they got their independence. At some point you have to own your baggage and move forward. Blaming Britain at this point would have been like us blaming them for our Civil War.

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The looting was wealth and goods taken away from the region of India to Britain and other European countries.
The colonizers were looters, plain and simple. Not do-gooders. They wanted to steal and they did. Quite effectively.

They are owning their baggage and eating our lunch. They are the fastest growing economy and all our jobs here are going there. Don't you read the news? They fooled us at our own "globalization" game.

And Stop glorifying looters and terrorists.

YouBet said:

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infinity ag said:

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Instead of getting our jollies by dissing Indians and throwing racist taunts at them, why don't we try to figure out how to get our jobs back?

Or have we given up on that battle?

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This will likely take care of itself as de-globalization / regionalism continues.

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Basically do nothing?

Okay.

infinity ag said:

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DrEvazanPhD said:

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infinity ag said:

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DrEvazanPhD said:

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When did the British leave? That's when the decline started

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You are wrong.


India (the region) was the richest regioneven until 1700AD when it accounted for 25% of world's GDP. From 1000AD it was under Muslim occupation and even then it was doing well. The Europeans (Brits, Dutch, French etc) took over then and looted the country even more and brought it to about 2% of world's GDP. Sure, they built railways but it was to transport their own loot.

You cannot break a country for 1000 years, change the culture beyond repair and expect it to be put back together in just 80 years. Even the US won't go back from 30+ years of looting by US corporations with outsourcing.

I won't call your post racist, but it does come close (in addition to being ignorant).

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Fortunately, I don't really give a ****.

And yay! 300+ years ago it was kind of ok. Egypt was amazing in 2000 BC. It's a dump now. Rome dominated Europe for 1000 years. Now Italian organization is something of a punchline. The Mongols ruled most of Asia and good chunk of Europe.

Go back to your usual CEO envy schtick.

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No gives an F whether you give an F or not. You aren't special.

I was giving you the reason why things are the way they are and nothing to do with "our culture is better than theirs".

Where did your PhD from? University of Granada? heh.They need to revoke it reading your posts.

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Yes. University of Grenada. Clever.

And our culture is better than theirs.

Over_ed said:

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IIIHorn said:

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India is a caste of billions.

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another good one.

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Thank you.

infinity ag said:

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YouBet said:

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infinity ag said:

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Instead of getting our jollies by dissing Indians and throwing racist taunts at them, why don't we try to figure out how to get our jobs back?

Or have we given up on that battle?

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This will likely take care of itself as de-globalization / regionalism continues.

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Basically do nothing?

Okay.

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Not saying to do nothing. Just thinking it will take care of itself even if we didn't.

I thought this thread was about North Irving.