Property Taxes

8,007 Views | 172 Replies | Last: 8 mo ago by backintexas2013
Johnny Park!
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How about we make the most blessed land on this earth an energy dynamo with the oil, gas, solar, wind, geothermal, and nuclear capabilities we are blessed with?

Export the energy and there will be no need to tax the citizenry at all
We should never cede the moral high ground to people who justify the debasement of society as reparative justice and then lie to us about how, why and even whether it’s
being destroyed from within.
Bunk Moreland
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The moment federal taxes started being withheld from paychecks, the objective was complete.
Aggie4Life02
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Consumption tax is the fairest tax.
ts5641
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Tom Fox said:

Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

Why does our Republican leadership argue that taxing unrealized gains is wrong and yet our state still makes us pay property taxes in our unrealized gains?

I don't see Abbott putting any effort on this issue.


What is the alternative? An income tax would be even worse.
Not sure it would. Our property taxes are so out of hand we probably end up paying more in taxes than a lot of the states that have income tax.
Mr.Milkshake
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Taxes on real estate businesses make sense. Takes on families buying, owning, and living in homes does not
jpb1999
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flown-the-coop said:

CampSkunk said:

Logos Stick said:

Sales tax.
Texans for Fiscal Responsibility looked at this a few months ago. They include several options, and one was that a sales tax rate of 12.57% would eliminate 75% of property taxes if it includes a broadening of the tax base while still excluding groceries and prescriptions.

Real Options for Eliminating Property Taxes in Texas
So an additional 5% inflation on everyday purchases to provide tax relief to wealthy taxpayers?

Ouch, that would go over well with folks. Progressive tax on the poorest and mostly minorities.


Yes, because they are paying virtually zero now. Everyone needs skin in the game. Necessities like fresh food, food staples, baby formula, etc can be exempt.
jpb1999
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Mr.Milkshake said:

Taxes on real estate businesses make sense. Takes on families buying, owning, and living in homes does not


Yep, if nothing else a homestead exemption should cut out 90% of property tax bill.
jpb1999
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lb3 said:

Ragoo said:

Tom Fox said:

Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

Why does our Republican leadership argue that taxing unrealized gains is wrong and yet our state still makes us pay property taxes in our unrealized gains?

I don't see Abbott putting any effort on this issue.


What is the alternative? An income tax would be even worse.
how about not having a yearly step up in basis on an asset until it is sold? Like anything else.
Nobody would ever sell. We would just buy 100 year leases.


Who cares? Still, the homestead exempting 90% of prop tax would make a lot of sense. Ad md a sakes tax to make up that tax loss.
Burdizzo
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FatZilla said:

Sales or VAT tax are best option. Everyone gets skin in the game then. Exempt things like fresh food, formula etc.



Everyone pays property tax, even renters. It is far easier to skirt a sales tax than a property tax
Tom Fox
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ts5641 said:

Tom Fox said:

Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

Why does our Republican leadership argue that taxing unrealized gains is wrong and yet our state still makes us pay property taxes in our unrealized gains?

I don't see Abbott putting any effort on this issue.


What is the alternative? An income tax would be even worse.
Not sure it would. Our property taxes are so out of hand we probably end up paying more in taxes than a lot of the states that have income tax.


I'm pretty sure everyone making > $250k would pay more in state income than property taxes. I would pay triple what I pay in property taxes.
YouBet
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ts5641 said:

Tom Fox said:

Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

Why does our Republican leadership argue that taxing unrealized gains is wrong and yet our state still makes us pay property taxes in our unrealized gains?

I don't see Abbott putting any effort on this issue.


What is the alternative? An income tax would be even worse.
Not sure it would. Our property taxes are so out of hand we probably end up paying more in taxes than a lot of the states that have income tax.


Can't look at it 1:1. For all the griping that we do about property taxes, there are several states with higher tax burdens for both property and income.

As a total tax burden (property, income, sales), we are in the cheapest 10-15 states. Tennessee is arguably the all around best state in this category.

Additional considerations: these rankings could change depending on your age/retirement status.
JohnClark929
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Depending on your income and lifestyle, Texas taxes aren't as low as advertised. Fairly average. Not a horrible system but needs improvement. Just keep in mind all systems are gamed. Look at bee hive ag exemptions. I think if you raise our sales tax, there will be problems collecting, it's already high.
Burdizzo
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JohnClark929 said:

Depending on your income and lifestyle, Texas taxes aren't as low as advertised. Fairly average. Not a horrible system but needs improvement. Just keep in mind all systems are gamed. Look at bee hive ag exemptions. I think if you raise our sales tax, there will be problems collecting, it's already high.



Last fall I paid a guy who barely spoke English about $7k to replace my concrete driveway. I paid him in cash. The state/city missed out on about $5-600 in sales tax.

Yeah, I know that makes me a hypocrite, but if the sales tax jumps to 12% like some people think it will to offset property taxes, just think about how many other people are paying cash off the books just to keep the government out of their business.
MD1993
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I feel I will never own my home in Texas now. When I bought the house, I was paying around 7K in property taxes, this year will be 14K. They keep pushing and pushing with no limit. Cut the rate all you want, the assesors just push up the values.

I would be in favor of a larger sales tax & locking in property values and rates from when you buy your home. It is a very unfavorable tax method we have that is abusive to the everyone.
ABATTBQ11
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1939 said:

California's property tax system is not the reason why housing is so expensive.


It isn't the sole reason, but it's a very big part of the problem. Prop 13 heavily distorts the housing market by disincentivizing buying and selling as values rise, but also heavily incentivizing restrictions on residential zoning encouraging commercial development to drive sales tax.

The longer you stay in house in Cali, the more expensive it is to move anywhere in the state. If you bought 15 years ago, the median home price in California was $253k. Now it's $880k. If you move now, your property tax triples overnight. It makes sense for people to hold on to property and land, which means an already finite and in demand resource gets more expensive.

But what's worse is that a freeze on valuations means taxes supporting police, fire, EMS, utilities, and basic city services don't increase with inflation or the costs of providing those services. Commercial property, on the other hand, has a higher tax rate and generates business and sales tax. That means commercial zoning generates more income to support city services and becomes preferable to residential, artificially constricting the available housing market.

It also means there's a disincentive for more dense residential usage. More dense usage means infrastructure and services upgrades to handle the increased usage and density, but you run into the same taxable value problem. If anything, it's potentially worse because a shell company could own the property and itself be sold in lieu of the property, locking in the property tax revenue indefinitely. A lot of developers create holding companies to fund construction and isolate any potential failures or losses, and the property can simply be left in the holding company's possession and sold with it.
flown-the-coop
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Genuine question, but for those so adamant about the values going up with no limit or demands the county buy your house for the assessed value, do people really believe their assessed values are completely out of line with market values?

For me currently, my market value per Denton CAD is a bit high but no unreasonable. I could very well put the house on the market and get that price. My taxed value because of the limits on increases for homeseats is 25%-30% below that market value, though each year of 10% increases will in theory cause those to align.

But for folks who truly believe their assessed values are way out of whack, the appeals process should resolve that.

The rest, in this particularly regards to assessed value, just feels like old men yelling at clouds. Rates, exemptions and alternatives along with accountable spending would be the levers to address, IMO.
ABATTBQ11
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There's two camps: The first complains about the tax on the unrealized gain in property value, and the other complains about the ever increasing assessments without ever acknowledging the increase in value.

Neither will acknowledge that they're going to pay that tax somewhere, and both just don't like the text that it's on property.
flown-the-coop
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I never realised Calis Prop 13 applied to commercial properties as well. That is a funding disaster for them over 40 years though I would think they have extracted their flesh from companies in other ways.

Evidently there was a push a few years ago to close the loophole on commercial properties but it failed.

A major issue with California is they limited the increase in assessed value to 2% annually and capped the rate at 1%. That dog don't hunt.

Texas may have its limits a bit too high and limiting the annual increases to 10% may be too high, but you have to consider the wide range of growing areas, stagnant areas, booming areas, and declined areas - often places where infrastructure and school funding becomes very misaligned.
eric76
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Logos Stick said:

Sales tax.
Have you ever tried to figure out how high sales taxes would have to be to replace property taxes?

I did that one day out of curiosity. It worked out to about 150% in my county. Paying 150% sales tax on purchases would pretty much shut down everything in my county. No restaurants. No stores. Not many jobs.

For us, it wouldn't be too bad. It isn't that far for us to go out of state.

The only way to make such a plan work for the whole state would be to set a statewide sales tax and have all sales taxes sent to state and then the state would distribute them based on their own calculations. Large cities would tend to pay more in sales taxes than they got. Rural counties without much in the way of retail businesses would receive more sales tax revenue than what they paid in.

I don't know what sales tax rate would be required for the state to replace all property taxes with sales taxes. Something on the order of 40% wouldn't surprise me.

So enjoy paying a high sales tax on all purchases (probably including groceries), but I'll be going to another state for most of my purchases.
Burdizzo
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I have often hypothesized that of those folks who say, "the county should be forced to buy my property for what they appraised it" about 75% would turn down the offer. We have no way of knowing until the negotiation actually starts, but it makes for a good bluff when you know the county isn't required to buy your property
javajaws
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Why not a compromise and just lower the 10% cap? 10% compounded annually gets out of hand fast. Something in the 5-7% range would be more reasonable. Offset that with slightly higher commercial prop tax and/or sales tax.
agdad4x
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Texas has a corporate income tax, except it is called a "Franchise Tax"
Moon Shadow
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Find me someone willing to pay the evaluated (elevated) value of my home and I'll sell it to them!!!
10andBOUNCE
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Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

I don't see Abbott putting any effort on this issue.
He's too busy jamming down the $1B ESA bill versus addressing property tax reform.
Bunk Moreland
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10andBOUNCE said:

Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

I don't see Abbott putting any effort on this issue.
He's too busy jamming down the $1B ESA bill versus addressing property tax reform.


Don't forget banning delta 8/9! Priorities.
Phatbob
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flown-the-coop said:

CampSkunk said:

Not everybody who owns a house or owns a business is "wealthy". It is a policy that would need to be evaluated in detail, and it may not work, but it would be foolish to just dismiss the idea. Also, wouldn't landlords also pay reduced property taxes, and wouldn't that reduction eventually turn into reduced rental rates?
Average homebuyer makes 6 figures in Texas. It may not seem like a lot to you, but its definitely above LMI levels.

Landlords for those same LMI folks are usually collecting the rents from the government and/or have tax breaks for renting to LMI.

Tell you what, run a campaign on platform of 12.5% sales tax with an offset to property taxes for homeowners.

You can study it all you want, but the immediate optics of the actual impacts would make most anyone other than wealthy homeowners vomit.
Non-property owners pay property taxes in the form of a portion of their rent, so your argument is mostly null, unless you are talking about the people who have their rent paid for by the government. This would at least make them have skin in the game for once.
MilanoCowboy
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Agreed. My property values have gone up 126% since 2020 in Milam county. Not much has sold in this area, so to base an increase for the entire county on that is BS.
Ghost of Andrew Eaton
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So with Republicans dominating the state, what do we need to do to make this happen. Abbott primaried those that pushed back on his voucher program, so he has some power.
If you say you hate the state of politics in this nation and you don't get involved in it, you obviously don't hate the state of politics in this nation.
aggiegolfer2012
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If the state would just give counties and cities a bigger cut of the sales tax generated in their area instead of sitting on billions in surplus, we could make massive cuts in property taxes.

But they're too greedy and want to spend their time in Austin bragging about how they are "lowering" property taxes with no way for cities and counties to make up for the lost revenue to build streets that are worth damn.
And don't get me started on how much they cost the cities and other water companies in inflation dollars because it takes years to get water project plans through the review process in Austin.

Meanwhile our state rep is in Austin worrying about sodas in schools and kids pretending to be animals.
Thunderstormr
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lobopride said:

My property taxes are going to be $10,000 this year, and I don't live in a nice city or school district and my house is pretty average. The whole thing is so frustrating.
Moot if like most Texans you take the standard deduction
Over_ed
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Thunderstormr said:

lobopride said:

My property taxes are going to be $10,000 this year, and I don't live in a nice city or school district and my house is pretty average. The whole thing is so frustrating.
Moot if like most Texans you take the standard deduction
???

It is worse for those taking the standard deduction, no???

For example, if you are already itemizing w/o the property tax figured in, then every bit of the property tax would lower your federal tax. For someone taking standard, none of the property tax helps against federal tax. Am I missing something?
HDeathstar
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Property taxes keep property utilized. With no appropriate level of property taxes to keep land productive, we would all be renting our homes from Bill Gates and Elon Musk and living in a small highrise.

Property taxes are a good tax.

Your fight is not with property taxes, your fight is with a bloated government. The government will still take your property if you don't pay your income tax, water bill, gas bill, school tax, parking fees.
UTExan
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Low property taxes plus 9 percent sales tax insures everybody pays.
“If you’re going to have crime it should at least be organized crime”
-Havelock Vetinari
ABATTBQ11
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HDeathstar said:

Property taxes keep property utilized. With no appropriate level of property taxes to keep land productive, we would all be renting our homes from Bill Gates and Elon Musk and living in a small highrise.

Property taxes are a good tax.

Your fight is not with property taxes, your fight is with a bloated government. The government will still take your property if you don't pay your income tax, water bill, gas bill, school tax, parking fees.


This. You will pay for the spending through sales, income, property, or some other tax. You can complain about how much you get taxed for what all day long, but at the end of the day you're paying that money somewhere. If you want lower taxes, start with lower spending.
SociallyConditionedAg
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eric76 said:

Logos Stick said:

Sales tax.
Have you ever tried to figure out how high sales taxes would have to be to replace property taxes?

I did that one day out of curiosity. It worked out to about 150% in my county. Paying 150% sales tax on purchases would pretty much shut down everything in my county. No restaurants. No stores. Not many jobs.

For us, it wouldn't be too bad. It isn't that far for us to go out of state.

The only way to make such a plan work for the whole state would be to set a statewide sales tax and have all sales taxes sent to state and then the state would distribute them based on their own calculations. Large cities would tend to pay more in sales taxes than they got. Rural counties without much in the way of retail businesses would receive more sales tax revenue than what they paid in.

I don't know what sales tax rate would be required for the state to replace all property taxes with sales taxes. Something on the order of 40% wouldn't surprise me.

So enjoy paying a high sales tax on all purchases (probably including groceries), but I'll be going to another state for most of my purchases.

If sales taxes are so high, doesn't that mean we need to reduce spending. Having multiple forms of 'low' taxes just obscures how much we're paying in taxes. Property taxes just need to go.
 
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