MemphisAg1 said:

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We're not on the same page. The IRS can calculate whatever the flat rate would need to be that produces the total revenue needed for the federal budget. It's basic math. Let's just suppose for this conversation it's something like 15% (after you cut the federal spending in half). When you eliminate deductions that wealthy people use, you all of a sudden get a lot more income into the taxable bucket. By doing that (and reducing spending), you can keep the rate at a level that is fair to EVERYONE.

Again, exempting those below the poverty level for the obvious reason. If you make $100 over the poverty level, you gotta pay $15 to have skin in the game. Make a million? Your tab is $150k. Elon Musk and $50 billion. Pony up a $7.5B check.

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You're literally proving my point. The tax rate has very little to do with the disparity between the upper brackets and lower brackets. Even with a flat tax the top 1% would still cover WELL over what the bottom 50% would in total tax.

rocky the dog said:

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That percentage is too low.

No one should be paying federal income taxes.

In other words, 100% of Americans should not be paying federal income taxes.

---

Do we all speak Russian or Chinese in Utopia?

But their tax rate would come DOWN and the low (or non) payers rate would come up so that everyone is paying the SAME rate on their income, which is not the case today. Far from it.

Average Joe said:

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MemphisAg1 said:

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We're not on the same page. The IRS can calculate whatever the flat rate would need to be that produces the total revenue needed for the federal budget. It's basic math. Let's just suppose for this conversation it's something like 15% (after you cut the federal spending in half). When you eliminate deductions that wealthy people use, you all of a sudden get a lot more income into the taxable bucket. By doing that (and reducing spending), you can keep the rate at a level that is fair to EVERYONE.

Again, exempting those below the poverty level for the obvious reason. If you make $100 over the poverty level, you gotta pay $15 to have skin in the game. Make a million? Your tab is $150k. Elon Musk and $50 billion. Pony up a $7.5B check.

---

You're literally proving my point. The tax rate has very little to do with the disparity between the upper brackets and lower brackets. Even with a flat tax the top 1% would still cover WELL over what the bottom 50% would in total tax.

---

Tell me which would make my tax burden not inline with the bottom earners: paying 30% on $950k or paying 15%?

In scenario 1, I pay net $270k and they net pay zero.

In scenario 2, I pay $142.5k and they pay net zero.

Which has a lower tax disparity?

MemphisAg1 said:

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But their tax rate would come DOWN and the low (or non) payers rate would come up so that everyone is paying the SAME rate on their income, which is not the case today. Far from it.

---

You better cut A LOT of spending for that to happen.

To cover the budget today, you would have to have roughly a 27% flat tax. That would be an increase in all brackets.

Easy. Gut entitlements. Now how are we looking?

Tom Fox said:

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Average Joe said:

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MemphisAg1 said:

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We're not on the same page. The IRS can calculate whatever the flat rate would need to be that produces the total revenue needed for the federal budget. It's basic math. Let's just suppose for this conversation it's something like 15% (after you cut the federal spending in half). When you eliminate deductions that wealthy people use, you all of a sudden get a lot more income into the taxable bucket. By doing that (and reducing spending), you can keep the rate at a level that is fair to EVERYONE.

Again, exempting those below the poverty level for the obvious reason. If you make $100 over the poverty level, you gotta pay $15 to have skin in the game. Make a million? Your tab is $150k. Elon Musk and $50 billion. Pony up a $7.5B check.

---

You're literally proving my point. The tax rate has very little to do with the disparity between the upper brackets and lower brackets. Even with a flat tax the top 1% would still cover WELL over what the bottom 50% would in total tax.

---

Tell me which would make my tax burden not inline with the bottom earners: paying 30% on $950k or paying 15%?

In scenario 1, I pay net $270k and they net pay zero.

In scenario 2, I pay $142.5k and they pay net zero.

Which has a lower tax disparity?

---

The problem is that y'all think everyone paying 15% would cover the budget. It would be closer to 27%. Which would be a higher effective tax rate for all tax brackets.

Not without entitlements. I'm done paying for the poor. They get to keep 100% of their income and part of mine in handouts.

Tom Fox said:

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Easy. Gut entitlements. Now how are we looking?

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Better, but you're still overestimating how much money the bottom 50% makes compared to the top 1%. The top 1% will still be covering the vast majority of taxes.

Average Joe said:

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MemphisAg1 said:

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But their tax rate would come DOWN and the low (or non) payers rate would come up so that everyone is paying the SAME rate on their income, which is not the case today. Far from it.

---

You better cut A LOT of spending for that to happen.

To cover the budget today, you would have to have roughly a 27% flat tax. That would be an increase in all brackets.

---

You just did the math for me, and we're finally on the same page.

Cut federal spending by half and implement a flat tax of 13.5%.

I suggested 15%. I think we can go even lower than your 13.5% if we eliminate deductions and make the taxable bucket bigger. Should I dare suggest 10%? How is that unfair to every taxpayer above the poverty threshold?

Average Joe said:

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To cover the budget today, you would have to have roughly a 27% flat tax. That would be an increase in all brackets.

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You keep saying stuff that's simply not true. The top two rates today are above 27%.

Come on man, get your facts straight!

Average Joe said:

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Tom Fox said:

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Easy. Gut entitlements. Now how are we looking?

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Better, but you're still overestimating how much money the bottom 50% makes compared to the top 1%. The top 1% will still be covering the vast majority of taxes.

---

I do not mind paying for critical infrastructure, the military, criminal justice, diplomacy, etc.

I am done paying for other people's individual family expenses which is like 2/3 of the budget.

I'm cool with still paying the most if I am only paying for the necessary.

What would be the flat tax rate without entitlements?

MemphisAg1 said:

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Average Joe said:

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To cover the budget today, you would have to have roughly a 27% flat tax. That would be an increase in all brackets.

---

You keep saying stuff that's simply not true. The top two rates today are above 27%.

Come on man, get your facts straight!

---

I get that the top three brackets are higher than 27%. You do know that you only pay that on the money that falls in that range, right? Or do I have to explain a graduated tax structure?

The average effective tax rate for the top 1% is only 26% on average.

Average Joe said:

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MemphisAg1 said:

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Average Joe said:

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To cover the budget today, you would have to have roughly a 27% flat tax. That would be an increase in all brackets.

---

You keep saying stuff that's simply not true. The top two rates today are above 27%.

Come on man, get your facts straight!

---

I get that the top three brackets are higher than 27%. You do know that you only pay that on the money that falls in that range, right? Or do I have to explain a graduated tax structure?

The average effective tax rate for the top 1% is only 26% on average.

---

Again what would be the necessary flat tax rate with zero entitlements?

And 27% would be a 3% tax cut for me. $27k. I would take it.

Doesn't matter. No politician will ever discontinue WIC, SNAP, or pregnant women/kids Medicaid. The opposing party would crucify them, and quite successfully. There are a lot more people who make less than $50k and pay few to no taxes than there are people who make over $500k, or even $100k. Their votes count just as much and they don't care if you take home $300k instead of $450k every year.

As long as their votes count as much as yours do, you're boned. That's what people forget in this entire argument. Someone who'll never see a 6 figure earning year in their life, or own a home, DGAF that you're footing the bill because you're still in a different financial stratosphere than they ever will.

It's why the founders predicated taxes on property ownership and the ability to vote on owning property. And we fouled that up a long time ago. Nobody has the balls to put that genie back in the bottle.

I already posted this exact argument earlier. It is why the founders did not believe in universal suffrage. They were far smarter than the idiots we have running our country today.

Average Joe said:

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MemphisAg1 said:

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Average Joe said:

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To cover the budget today, you would have to have roughly a 27% flat tax. That would be an increase in all brackets.

---

You keep saying stuff that's simply not true. The top two rates today are above 27%.

Come on man, get your facts straight!

---

I get that the top three brackets are higher than 27%. You do know that you only pay that on the money that falls in that range, right? Or do I have to explain a graduated tax structure?

The average effective tax rate for the top 1% is only 26% on average.

---

You're cherry-picking. The top 0.75% pay more than that, as does the top 0.5% and beyond.

What matters is your marginal rate... what the government takes for each extra dollar you make.

Using your own numbers, cut federal spending in half and apply a flat tax of 13.5% for everybody above the poverty level.

Everybody treated equally, the American Way.

Tom Fox said:

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Average Joe said:

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Tom Fox said:

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Easy. Gut entitlements. Now how are we looking?

---

Better, but you're still overestimating how much money the bottom 50% makes compared to the top 1%. The top 1% will still be covering the vast majority of taxes.

---

I do not mind paying for critical infrastructure, the military, criminal justice, diplomacy, etc.

I am done paying for other people's individual family expenses which is like 2/3 of the budget.

I'm cool with still paying the most if I am only paying for the necessary.

What would be the flat tax rate without entitlements?

---

I'm 100% in agreement with the top 3 lines.

If I have some spare time this weekend I might look up the budget w/out entitlements.

Exactly

MemphisAg1 said:

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Average Joe said:

---

MemphisAg1 said:

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Average Joe said:

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To cover the budget today, you would have to have roughly a 27% flat tax. That would be an increase in all brackets.

---

You keep saying stuff that's simply not true. The top two rates today are above 27%.

Come on man, get your facts straight!

---

I get that the top three brackets are higher than 27%. You do know that you only pay that on the money that falls in that range, right? Or do I have to explain a graduated tax structure?

The average effective tax rate for the top 1% is only 26% on average.

---

You're cherry-picking. The top 0.75% pay more than that, as does the top 0.5% and beyond.

What matters is your marginal rate... what the government takes for each extra dollar you make.

Using your own numbers, cut federal spending in half and apply a flat tax of 13.5% for everybody above the poverty level.

Everybody treated equally, the American Way.

---

Marginal tax rate is the highest bracket you belong to. Effective tax rate, what I'm talking about, is how much you pay for every dollar you make.

Are we really over here fighting because the top 0.5% might pay a couple percent higher on part of their money? Sorry if I don't cry that someone who makes multiple millions a year has to pay a few percentage higher. Maybe they should cut back on Starbucks and Avocado toast.

Average Joe said:

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MemphisAg1 said:

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Average Joe said:

---

MemphisAg1 said:

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Average Joe said:

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To cover the budget today, you would have to have roughly a 27% flat tax. That would be an increase in all brackets.

---

You keep saying stuff that's simply not true. The top two rates today are above 27%.

Come on man, get your facts straight!

---

I get that the top three brackets are higher than 27%. You do know that you only pay that on the money that falls in that range, right? Or do I have to explain a graduated tax structure?

The average effective tax rate for the top 1% is only 26% on average.

---

You're cherry-picking. The top 0.75% pay more than that, as does the top 0.5% and beyond.

What matters is your marginal rate... what the government takes for each extra dollar you make.

Using your own numbers, cut federal spending in half and apply a flat tax of 13.5% for everybody above the poverty level.

Everybody treated equally, the American Way.

---

Marginal tax rate is the highest bracket you belong to. Effective tax rate, what I'm talking about, is how much you pay for every dollar you make.

---

You're playing loose with facts, which has become a pattern.

Effective tax rate is your average tax rate. Total taxes divided by total income.

It is NOT what you pay for every dollar you make. That is determined by the tax tables which are based on your marginal income. As you make more, the rate goes up. You can have a marginal rate of 37% and an average rate of 27%, but for every extra dollar you make you are paying 37%, not 27%.

Don't misrepresent it. It's disingenuous at best, and intentionally misleading at worst.

And I don't share your disdain for people who work hard and have a great income. The overwhelming majority -- 95% of them that I know -- worked their asses off to get there and still do. They were not born with a silver spoon in their mouth.

I'm done trying to have a rational conversation with you. Peace, out.

MemphisAg1 said:

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Average Joe said:

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MemphisAg1 said:

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Average Joe said:

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MemphisAg1 said:

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Average Joe said:

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To cover the budget today, you would have to have roughly a 27% flat tax. That would be an increase in all brackets.

---

You keep saying stuff that's simply not true. The top two rates today are above 27%.

Come on man, get your facts straight!

---

I get that the top three brackets are higher than 27%. You do know that you only pay that on the money that falls in that range, right? Or do I have to explain a graduated tax structure?

The average effective tax rate for the top 1% is only 26% on average.

---

You're cherry-picking. The top 0.75% pay more than that, as does the top 0.5% and beyond.

What matters is your marginal rate... what the government takes for each extra dollar you make.

Using your own numbers, cut federal spending in half and apply a flat tax of 13.5% for everybody above the poverty level.

Everybody treated equally, the American Way.

---

Marginal tax rate is the highest bracket you belong to. Effective tax rate, what I'm talking about, is how much you pay for every dollar you make.

---

You're playing loose with facts, which has become a pattern.

Effective tax rate is your average tax rate. Total taxes divided by total income.

It is NOT what you pay for every dollar you make. That is determined by the tax tables which are based on your marginal income. As you make more, the rate goes up. You can have a marginal rate of 37% and an average rate of 27%, but for every extra dollar you make you are paying 37%, not 27%.

Don't misrepresent it. It's disingenuous at best, and intentionally misleading at worst.

And I don't share your disdain for people who work hard and have a great income. The overwhelming majority -- 95% of them that I know -- worked their asses off to get there and still do. They were not born with a silver spoon in their mouth.

I'm done trying to have a rational conversation with you. Peace, out.

---

I have yet to say anything that was not 100% factual.

Effective tax rate is what you pay for EVERY dollar. When you pay your taxes, you don't split up and file different taxes for the money that falls in each tax bracket. It is all...wait for it...AVERAGED OUT.

Getting upset about your marginal tax rate is absolutely stupid. Especially since you're paying the same amount as everyone else on the money in those tax brackets. How can you get upset when you're paying the same amount as everyone in each bracket? Oh, poor you. You made so much money you have to pay a little extra off the top bracket. Go figure, the people who benefit the most have to pay the most.

Effective tax rate is all that matters. How much of your income you pay in taxes. If you're $5 into the highest bracket, it's highly disingenuous to say "oh, I pay 37% taxes". You pay 37% on literally $5. Who the **** cares.

Please show me one place where I have said anything untrue. Just because you don't like facts doesn't mean you have to run away.

Average Joe said:

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MemphisAg1 said:

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Average Joe said:

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MemphisAg1 said:

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Average Joe said:

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To cover the budget today, you would have to have roughly a 27% flat tax. That would be an increase in all brackets.

---

You keep saying stuff that's simply not true. The top two rates today are above 27%.

Come on man, get your facts straight!

---

I get that the top three brackets are higher than 27%. You do know that you only pay that on the money that falls in that range, right? Or do I have to explain a graduated tax structure?

The average effective tax rate for the top 1% is only 26% on average.

---

You're cherry-picking. The top 0.75% pay more than that, as does the top 0.5% and beyond.

What matters is your marginal rate... what the government takes for each extra dollar you make.

Using your own numbers, cut federal spending in half and apply a flat tax of 13.5% for everybody above the poverty level.

Everybody treated equally, the American Way.

---

Marginal tax rate is the highest bracket you belong to. Effective tax rate, what I'm talking about, is how much you pay for every dollar you make.

Are we really over here fighting because the top 0.5% might pay a couple percent higher on part of their money? Sorry if I don't cry that someone who makes multiple millions a year has to pay a few percentage higher. Maybe they should cut back on Starbucks and Avocado toast.

---

My effective tax rate is 29.3% and I am willing to give the govt 15%. I do not make multiple millions.

Gut entitlements and take my 15%.

Give more to charities and your taxable amount can be easily reduced significantly!! Simple solution.

Strike One said:

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Give more to charities and your taxable amount can be easily reduced significantly!! Simple solution.

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I already give over $100k to mandated charity. They are called govt entitlements.

AJ02 said:

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If you don't pay income taxes, you have no skin in the game. Therefore, you shouldn't be allowed to vote.

---

And the right to vote should be suspended until you repay every dime of state and federal aid you have received. Those who suck off the system will continue to vote for those that provide them something to suck in exchange for their vote.

Charitable contributions are a percentage of a deduction to what you owe. They don't lower your taxable income. And people who make money already give money to charity in addition to have money stolen from the government so they can waste it. The government dependent free hand out seeking lazy warfare state recipients in the 47% will take and take and take from both government handouts and charity handouts. Nothing solved. Only a communist would tell you to just donate more instead of attempt to hold government accountable for their waste, fraud, and abuse of their money.

Tom Fox said:

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Average Joe said:

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MemphisAg1 said:

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Average Joe said:

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MemphisAg1 said:

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Average Joe said:

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To cover the budget today, you would have to have roughly a 27% flat tax. That would be an increase in all brackets.

---

You keep saying stuff that's simply not true. The top two rates today are above 27%.

Come on man, get your facts straight!

---

I get that the top three brackets are higher than 27%. You do know that you only pay that on the money that falls in that range, right? Or do I have to explain a graduated tax structure?

The average effective tax rate for the top 1% is only 26% on average.

---

You're cherry-picking. The top 0.75% pay more than that, as does the top 0.5% and beyond.

What matters is your marginal rate... what the government takes for each extra dollar you make.

Using your own numbers, cut federal spending in half and apply a flat tax of 13.5% for everybody above the poverty level.

Everybody treated equally, the American Way.

---

Marginal tax rate is the highest bracket you belong to. Effective tax rate, what I'm talking about, is how much you pay for every dollar you make.

Are we really over here fighting because the top 0.5% might pay a couple percent higher on part of their money? Sorry if I don't cry that someone who makes multiple millions a year has to pay a few percentage higher. Maybe they should cut back on Starbucks and Avocado toast.

---

My effective tax rate is 29.3% and I am willing to give the govt 15%. I do not make multiple millions.

Gut entitlements and take my 15%.

---

We get it dude. You are rich

Lolz.

Remember the "rich" don't pay their share, but 47% pay nothing. Maybe 1 or 2% are poor. The rest may not be rich, but they ain't poor

Anyone wants a world tour of true poverty, ill gladly take them to real places, with real people who don't eat today, if they don't work today; who have no access to health care period or if they do, they must pay up front - and since they can't afford it they get no healthcare; and who are truly taken advantage of by anyone that has two cents to rub together.

I spent much of my career in these places seeing it up close.

Our tour will take us out of the US and the West before it begins and will stop before we get back to the West.

Yes people may not have all they want here, and some may struggle for what they need, but few are in true poverty that dont have mental health issues or drug issues.

Love folks trying to defend an indefensible position.

Dead serious on offer to take people on the world tour of poverty, destruction and misery. Of course any takers are paying their own way

Smh.

BoydCrowder13 said:

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Tom Fox said:

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Average Joe said:

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MemphisAg1 said:

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Average Joe said:

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MemphisAg1 said:

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Average Joe said:

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To cover the budget today, you would have to have roughly a 27% flat tax. That would be an increase in all brackets.

---

You keep saying stuff that's simply not true. The top two rates today are above 27%.

Come on man, get your facts straight!

---

I get that the top three brackets are higher than 27%. You do know that you only pay that on the money that falls in that range, right? Or do I have to explain a graduated tax structure?

The average effective tax rate for the top 1% is only 26% on average.

---

You're cherry-picking. The top 0.75% pay more than that, as does the top 0.5% and beyond.

What matters is your marginal rate... what the government takes for each extra dollar you make.

Using your own numbers, cut federal spending in half and apply a flat tax of 13.5% for everybody above the poverty level.

Everybody treated equally, the American Way.

---

Marginal tax rate is the highest bracket you belong to. Effective tax rate, what I'm talking about, is how much you pay for every dollar you make.

Are we really over here fighting because the top 0.5% might pay a couple percent higher on part of their money? Sorry if I don't cry that someone who makes multiple millions a year has to pay a few percentage higher. Maybe they should cut back on Starbucks and Avocado toast.

---

My effective tax rate is 29.3% and I am willing to give the govt 15%. I do not make multiple millions.

Gut entitlements and take my 15%.

---

We get it dude. You are rich

---

That is the problem. I'm actually not. There are plenty of people that made 200k for the past 20 years that are far wealthier than me.

I have only been making more than 200k for the past 5 years. And more than 750k for the past 3.

So I'm not rich yet. And the government is taking 30% of what I make which is slowing down my wealth accumulation.

Hence my constant concern about effective tax rates and everybody paying the same rate. I need that additional 15% over the next 15 years to actually become wealthy. I have zero issue paying $135k or so in net fed taxes annually. My issue is that additional 15% will cost me > $5 mil from my final wealth number at retirement age.

Hell, I am just finishing up paying the $250k that I borrowed to attend law school. Which I couldn't claim on my taxes because essentially every tax deduction phases out at $485k. If they just let me keep all of the deductions, I would have less of an issue.

I can't imagine anyone not being furious about what is happening to me quarterly with taxes. Sure they might say, "oh I'd be happy if I ever made that." That **** wears off pretty quick when you have to watch that money leave your saving account every 3 months when you write that check to the IRS.

I'm not asking for a fricking handout. I'm asking for my fellow conservatives to do what is right and let me keep more of my own hard earned money. There is no reason why the top few percent of earners have to pay for it all when 2/3 is being redistributed to other tax payers to cover their individual family expenses. I would also feel differently if it was covering core government functions envisioned by our founders, but it's not.

where do i sign up

37% highest marginal income tax rate
3.8% Obamacare tax
6%. State income tax rate

46.8%… Total-highest marginal income tax rate

Does anybody here think a 46.8% marginal income tax rate is fair and serves as incentive to risk more to make more? Does anybody here think the rich aren't taxed enough?

Democrats are still trying to raise taxes even after taking almost half of the highest earners income. What that leads to is rich people avoiding making more ordinary income and instead investing in less productive things to get longterm capital gains treatment. For instance, instead of producing more oil and gas, some Texas oilmen buy ranches or art or gold or bitcoin. I could make an argument that making more oil and gas or valves or medical devices or many things is better for America than buying gold and putting it in a lockbox.

High marginal tax rates on people are bad for America and bad for individuals. Look at the democrats today. They are calling for higher taxes still and trying to stop Musk and Trump from cutting wasteful spending. These people won't stop until they steal all our money!

pfo said:

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Democrats are still trying to raise taxes even after taking almost half of the highest earners income. What that leads to is rich people avoiding making more ordinary income and instead investing in less productive things to get longterm capital gains treatment.

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it also leads to more and more people becoming poor so they have to vote for the socialist government they now depend on, the middle class and upper middle class disappearing, the wealth gap between the citizenry and the elites growing further and further apart, less motivation for hard work, innovation, and entrepreneurship in general, less investment from both domestic and foreign business here when they can build their businesses and expand their market shares elsewhere with cheaper taxes, etc.

It's how socialism crushes countries and paves the way for communism.

Unfortunately, politicians think it's the way to go because the political elite are just about the only ones who benefit (initially) from socialism. Their Pravda media arm funded, controlled, and influenced by the state have convinced the masses it's a great idea to "tax the rich" more. It's probably Chinese envy and Chinese influence, but they've been following Venezuela's blueprint and it won't end well.

But the rich don't pay their fair share...
One of the biggest lies out there. But it's a line Marxists use to get the useful idiots to vote for them.