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OP, have your daughter read a Thomas Sowell book.

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Based on the OP and his follow up posts, what makes you think his daughter would take his advice on what book to read?

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My two sons (2 years apart) went to the exact same schools, raised the same way from pre-K through high school. We raised them the same way yet one is much more liberal than the other.

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Quoting from akm91, this is exactly one of the topics Sowell discusses in Discrimination and Disparities.

Prayers for all the suffering parents. Not sure why some must bear this cross but God's permissive will be done.

CDUB98 said:

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My two sons (2 years apart) went to the exact same schools, raised the same way from pre-K through high school. We raised them the same way yet one is much more liberal than the other.

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Quoting from akm91, this is exactly one of the topics Sowell discusses in Discrimination and Disparities.

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my parents are bush republicans and my sister is a 45 year old lesbian cat lady communist.

i'd struggle to call myself a "republican" today, but i tend to share or align with most of my parents' views. we never vote for the same person in primaries.

TheEternalOptimist said:

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gabehcoud said:

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I can't imagine choosing politics over family. You don't have to agree. Just try not talking politics

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"I can not call anyone who supports Elon Musk my parents. He is a Nazi and he gave a Nazi salute'.

Yep. She said that.

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Having read three pages so far, simply have seen fantastic comments. Only want to add harking back to this these points. You deal with this in a related way with relatives and friendships too, and the approach is the same.

Given the age of 22 that is awfully young to worry about becoming set that way for life. Though many treat it as some kind of best thing, the 20s are actually a potential disaster area for many and what you have to hope for is she doesn't make a lasting irrevocable mistake.

You make unconditional your acceptance of their wander, journey, path whathaveyou. Not acceptance of its wisdom but of its mystery -- the `that is where you are now' and make clear the love values over all that. You can try to point out pitfalls (the best is when you can implicate yourself doing something disastrous learned from--than it doesn't sound high and mighty) You as a parent already have an automatic bond and default from which to put all the value on that. Very close friendships do the same. The proverb of the prodigal son is one of the wisest and tricky of Christ's messages. What many overlook is the son that stayed home and did the laid out path had also some gremlins, some resentments that the sibling had not matched what they wanted. Both of them end up having to learn that it is about leaving room for recant to play out long term.

The only thing in the politics would try to address with is this:

A phrase like
"I can not call anyone who supports Elon Musk my parents. He is a Nazi and he gave a Nazi salute" or "orange man" ---- are what term imported thinking or phrases. (Indoctrination is a high tier form) You can probably determine exactly which MSNBC or NYT type said that first, or politician. In other words, its not her own thoughts. Get her to recognized that.

Encourage her to lay out her particular thoughts, unconditionally. But bat aside talking points. Force the actual discourse on what they are really going by, and show its limits. There has actually never been a better time to basically point out how most narrative setters are self-serving. `Its very important for you to reflect and look at your own reasons for thinking something.'

Most like to be heard as who they are, and are not. This gives them the chance but comes at the cost of dropping parrotting points. Point out do not be a follower of a pied piper. `Test your preconceptions -- and though you must discover yourself, can save you some time if you realize that most loudly grievance mongering while living high themselves are making you a drone.'

Two cents.

So far both kids are conservative and in college now. Son has conservative Catholic friends and are strong in their faith and values. Understand that the world is against them and must push hard to win. Daughter is also strong that way, but tends to be impacted by outside sources more than my son. Both have good instincts on identifying good and bad people.

I think key factors in raising kids better is:
- Consistency in the parents' stances, faith and values.
- Fear of God in them. This is important. Kids should learn very early on what actions will send them to Hell. They should have a strong fear of God. This should dominate over their fear of the planet ending in 10 years, or worrying about people being offended by word, etc.
- Having an extended family Uncles, Aunts, Cousins around them that think the same also helps.
- Parents also need to cut ties with their friends that are bad influences as well. At least keep them away from your kids and don't elevate them. Let your kids know why you don't hang around them as much, they will pick up clues on who they should be hanging around with. It's hard, but you don't need to be telling cool stories about friends that put these people on a pedestal for your kids and then allow them to share their liberal views with them. Meet them without your kids outside your house. Seems extreme, but it is a way to show your kids that they are more important to you than the bad influence of a life long friend.

Daughters are different, it is hard, but they need rocks in their life to crash against that will not break. They also need to be consistently fed info on how dangerous the liberal mindset is and how it is bad. They want to be empathetic and accumulate as many empathy "points" as possible with friends. These points are huge for them. We also are putting them in terrible situations against their natural tendencies and years of historical conditioning. Sending them to college away from proper influence, to be influenced by other women in the same situation and random guys that parents are not able to screen for them, all during their prime is a bad situation. Historically they would have been married away to a man that the parents had screened, and they would be the rock influencing them during this critical development time for them. Its and old perspective, but I think it was this way in the past for a reason. Thats why during this period the daughters fight so much with their parents. In the past they would have been married and already in control of their own household.

Focus on talking about echo chambers. You have them as well in church and your faith, but in the end, if you want to fix your relationship with your child, she will need to mature and grow to understand that communication is the key. If you two can't talk, what is the point of even having a relationship?

Blame both sides dividing up so far that you can't even talk about your lives and struggles.. You can't change Elon, Trump, Biden, or Kamala.... Neither can she. You can change your life and hers to be more tolerant of each other.

jpb1999 said:

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Just curious, how do you think this happened? Friends? School... if so, what school?

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Our Government...

CDUB98 said:

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Jeeper79 said:

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Im Gipper said:

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That advice only works if BOTH sides are willing to dial back the politics!

What do you do when one family member won't shut up about politics? (Asking for a sister )

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Change the subject. Let them vent for a bit and steer away. Avoid situations that invite that sort of discussion. Have a no phones or no news policy while you're around each other. It can wait.

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STAFF: Apologies. I'm not trying to derail or necessarily attack this poster. It was merely a great opportunity to put out a message to several people on the board in general.

Having observed your concerned moderate posts over the last year plus, there is something you fundamentally do not understand, and until, and several others, understand, you will continue lost in the squishy middle.

Today's leftists are not those of old. They are hardcore Communists. Communism is their religion. They will live and die for that. They want you dead for not following their religion. All their actions and usurping of institutions is to move the revolution forward.

The revolution, like all communist takeovers of the past, demands those who do not follow the religion be summarily eliminated.

Once you understand that they hate you and want you dead, their way of thinking/reasoning and their actions afterwards becomes clear.

You aren't there yet.

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Truth...

titan said:

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A phrase like
"I can not call anyone who supports Elon Musk my parents. He is a Nazi and he gave a Nazi salute" or "orange man" ---- are what term imported thinking or phrases. (Indoctrination is a high tier form) You can probably determine exactly which MSNBC or NYT type said that first, or politician. In other words, its not her own thoughts. Get her to recognized that.

Encourage her to lay out her particular thoughts, unconditionally. But bat aside talking points. Force the actual discourse on what they are really going by, and show its limits. There has actually never been a better time to basically point out how most narrative setters are self-serving. `Its very important for you to reflect and look at your own reasons for thinking something.'

Most like to be heard as who they are, and are not. This gives them the chance but comes at the cost of dropping parrotting points. Point out do not be a follower of a pied piper. `Test your preconceptions -- and though you must discover yourself, can save you some time if you realize that most loudly grievance mongering while living high themselves are making you a drone.'

Two cents.

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I do a lot of travel with partners of varying political stances that require dinner often and drinks occasionally. I've had a lot of conversations this last election cycle with people of varying political ideologies.

There is a died in the wool progressive/socialist that I can absolutely reason with and come to good mutual ground. Somewhere in the past he brought up the 2020 election and Trump's inability to accept it. I walked him down the path of Trump winning in person voting and Biden winning mail in. I was completely neutral and got him to say "yeah, there was a huge increase in mail in voting unheard of in 2020 where they took a lot of safeguards out. i get the anger and questions, but 1/6 was out of line." I agreed.

He said, "he never thought of it from that perspective."

Another one I travel with more often is a more of a moderate centrist who started screaming at me and saying Bush 2000 was stolen, so who cares what happened in 2020 when we had the same conversation.

same neutral language and had a totally different reaction.

some people just can't achieve cognitive dissonance.

doubledog said:

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TheEternalOptimist said:

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aTmAg said:

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What age?

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22

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Stick in there. A miracle occurs at the age of 35.

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Hmm....Is this a truism? Intriguing.

Isosceles_Kramer said:

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Going through similar experience, not child, but close friend.

Social media is the the primary driver here with my case. Limited to no discussion on other ideas, constant reaffirming of beliefs through algorithms on the platform, and a degradation of the other side (dehumanizing anyone not left).

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Social media is a primary driver in today's "us vs them" mentality, and this goes for both liberals and conservatives. You can "read or listen" to only what you believe is truth by algorithm, or podcasts. There is very little "each side" listens to, that would even allow common ground. It is literally "they are bad and evil" from both side of the spectrum. It's a sad time in America. I recall the days when Republicans and Democrats actually worked together for the betterment of this country. Where are the Phil Grahams and Lloyd Bentsen's of the world?

DVM97 said:

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Isosceles_Kramer said:

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Going through similar experience, not child, but close friend.

Social media is the the primary driver here with my case. Limited to no discussion on other ideas, constant reaffirming of beliefs through algorithms on the platform, and a degradation of the other side (dehumanizing anyone not left).

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Social media is a primary driver in today's "us vs them" mentality, and this goes for both liberals and conservatives. You can "read or listen" to only what you believe is truth by algorithm, or podcasts. There is very little "each side" listens to, that would even allow common ground. It is literally "they are bad and evil" from both side of the spectrum. It's a sad time in America. I recall the days when Republicans and Democrats actually worked together for the betterment of this country. Where are the Phil Grahams and Lloyd Bentsen's of the world?

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Its for another thread, but it was an insightful liberal that actually said it best. Gore Vidal said the ruling class was dominated by a process geared to reward "ambitious second-raters." Most never were any good and they quickly weed out those that are. Look at the initial persecution of Cruz. (But again, for another thread. )

Covid mentally killed a lot of people

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I recall the days when Republicans and Democrats actually worked together for the betterment of this country.

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That America no longer exists.

hth

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I do a lot of travel with partners of varying political stances that require dinner often and drinks occasionally. I've had a lot of conversations this last election cycle with people of varying political ideologies.

There is a died in the wool progressive/socialist that I can absolutely reason with and come to good mutual ground. Somewhere in the past he brought up the 2020 election and Trump's inability to accept it. I walked him down the path of Trump winning in person voting and Biden winning mail in. I was completely neutral and got him to say "yeah, there was a huge increase in mail in voting unheard of in 2020 where they took a lot of safeguards out. i get the anger and questions, but 1/6 was out of line." I agreed.

He said, "he never thought of it from that perspective."

Another one I travel with more often is a more of a moderate centrist who started screaming at me and saying Bush 2000 was stolen, so who cares what happened in 2020 when we had the same conversation.

same neutral language and had a totally different reaction.

some people just can't achieve cognitive dissonance.

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Yes. that's kind of what talking about. It doesn't always `work' (you should not have a `goal' anyway) but the key is to get them away from the Pied Piper: talking points. Make them think and reason on their own. It even is often worth hearing.

Your other one, the italics -- you could even spot him 2004. Hawg has me thinking it might have been tipped. And 2000 was a cluster. The only thing might say there is "After Clinton's two terms, the American norm was to cast that out---so 2000 is probably legit however close. Its what you would expect. (pendulum swing after a near decade) One thing is for sure, we learned that it didn't necessarily turn out best." See if that helps.

DVM97 said:

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Isosceles_Kramer said:

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Going through similar experience, not child, but close friend.

Social media is the the primary driver here with my case. Limited to no discussion on other ideas, constant reaffirming of beliefs through algorithms on the platform, and a degradation of the other side (dehumanizing anyone not left).

---

Social media is a primary driver in today's "us vs them" mentality, and this goes for both liberals and conservatives. You can "read or listen" to only what you believe is truth by algorithm, or podcasts. There is very little "each side" listens to, that would even allow common ground. It is literally "they are bad and evil" from both side of the spectrum. It's a sad time in America. I recall the days when Republicans and Democrats actually worked together for the betterment of this country. Where are the Phil Grahams and Lloyd Bentsen's of the world?

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It's too easy to retreat into our little enclaves. We're no longer forced to interact with anyone we don't want to. It creates echo chambers. Social media makes it worse, but it only amplifies and streamlines our own base inclinations.

akm91 said:

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Captain Winky said:

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I see lots of blame being placed on schools and the internet and everything else, but no mention of parenting….

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That's not fair. His other children are not behaving the same way.

My two sons (2 years apart) went to the exact same schools, raised the same way from pre-K through high school. We raised them the same way yet one is much more liberal than the other. The only differences outside of home are the teachers and coaches in high school as they took different classes and had different extra curricular activities.

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Query. Is one more accepted as how are than the other? Not by you, but by the social milieu? Sometimes radical politics draws as a a way of offering meaning and a context for a non-mainstream. Many of these cases may be more related to willing to be in rebellion to find a niche. Something heard alot was it takes real mulishness to not crave acceptance enough to cast away your values. The vast majority the peer pressure is decisive. So indeed, much of this can be `waiting out the 20s' --- the brain is not fully mature -- the responsiveness to peer pressure or the need of its praise, eases later.

TheEternalOptimist said:

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......who calls you 'Nazi' and says 'You are not my parents'. Who rejects the precepts of God and morality.

I can not be alone. But it is a very lonely feeling at times.

Thankful for my other two children who encourage me to be faithful and stand true.

What we are dealing with personally has made me loathe the whole woke nonsense even more. It is a mind virus and it harms families deeply. I righteously resent it.

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Being honest here since someone mentioned the belt and got flamed...

Since the topic came up and sparked some debate, I'm curious how did you handle discipline in your household? Were you more of a timeout family, or did you believe in firmer consequences when needed? My wife and I raised our kids with discipline and accountability. Sometimes, just "the look" was enough to keep them in line. We taught them that actions have consequences, that respect matters, and that excuses don't fly especially when it comes to school or personal responsibility. Now, our daughter is a freshman in college, and our son is a junior. Both were raised with strong values, and both lean conservative today.

Red Pear Felipe said:

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TheEternalOptimist said:

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......who calls you 'Nazi' and says 'You are not my parents'. Who rejects the precepts of God and morality.

I can not be alone. But it is a very lonely feeling at times.

Thankful for my other two children who encourage me to be faithful and stand true.

What we are dealing with personally has made me loathe the whole woke nonsense even more. It is a mind virus and it harms families deeply. I righteously resent it.

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Being honest here since someone mentioned the belt and got flamed...

Since the topic came up and sparked some debate, I'm curioushow did you handle discipline in your household? Were you more of a timeout family, or did you believe in firmer consequences when needed?
My wife and I raised our kids with discipline and accountability. Sometimes, just "the look" was enough to keep them in line. We taught them that actions have consequences, that respect matters, and that excuses don't flyespecially when it comes to school or personal responsibility. Now, our daughter is a freshman in college, and our son is a junior. Both were raised with strong values, and both lean conservative today.

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Yes! My term for it was the fatal "third rail" --- when Dad gave it. I and my brother did get the belt in early phase.

Me thinks this is a two way street with two hard heads. Politics must clearly rank above your children if, when brought up, there's enough push back from you to cause them to pull away that hard. That said, they are being unreasonable too.

For example, if the topic of musk came up, you must have voiced your appreciation of him over your daughters concerns of him being a **** head. Have you tried just agreeing? Being the bigger adult? Agree to disagree, politely?

Daughter "hey, I think musk is a nazi, he gave a nazi salute!" You "Yeah, that was a questionable move. Maybe he was trolling? Either way I hope he does better because that's kinda off putting. How's the new job going?..."


My inlaws do this. My wife has clearly shown her disdain for their politics or bringing up politics, they're fox news on every TV, 24/7, conservatives. To the point it's clear, to anyone who cares, that politics is just a **** show to bring up. What do they do when we have a get-together shortly before this election? Two Trump signs either side of the entry to their house.

They've never in their lives placed political signs, niether have we. Obviously was a painful "oh ok, so we're trolling our own children now, excellent" moment. You might see how that could push someone away? We haven't disowned them like your daughter, but they're on that line where trolling politics ranks above their family. Kinda ****ty.

Is that going on?

EDIT: almost forgot about the poster calling all democrats are comminists out to round them up and eliminate them. Grow tf up.

But she isn't necessary lesbian. Maybe she is but most likely she's just doing it because she knows it irritates her parents and she wants to fit in with a certain crowd. While I do believe that true homosexuals are born many drift in and out of the lifestyle as well as other lifestyles too.

But Elon's move was not questionable. He said from my heart to y'all thank everyone and pushed his hand out. Your post is just bizarre. No people should not bow down to other people when they're being so inflexible.

If your advice is to just bow down to other people's narratives because it makes things easier that's just ridiculous. There is an agreed to disagree option but not with these hardline liberals. It just literally isn't there.

And funny you would mention them watching Fox News. It is the people that watch CNN and MSNBC that are completely brainwashed. Fox has their issues, but that's the only one you can really listen to and get an even keel on it. The other ones are always anti-Trump And completely opinion needed instead of just reporting the news.

Ok, you can say that to me, and we can go in circles all day on that topic.

My example is between parent and child. If that's still your response to your child, go back to sentence one about hard heads.

And sure, maybe if they're that hardline, but don't come crying if you haven't even tried. And it still borders on "politics over children" to me, but... we'll have to agree to disagree lol!

TheEternalOptimist said:

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ETFan said:

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Me thinks this is a two way street with two hard heads. Politics must clearly rank above your children if, when brought up, there's enough push back from you to cause them to pull away that hard. That said, they are being unreasonable too.

For example, if the topic of musk came up, you must have voiced your appreciation of him over your daughters concerns of him being a **** head. Have you tried just agreeing? Being the bigger adult? Agree to disagree, politely?

Daughter "hey, I think musk is a nazi, he gave a nazi salute!" You "Yeah, that was a questionable move. Maybe he was trolling? Either way I hope he does better because that's kinda off putting. How's the new job going?..."


My inlaws do this. My wife has clearly shown her disdain for their politics or bringing up politics, they're fox news on every TV, 24/7, conservatives. To the point it's clear, to anyone who cares, that politics is just a **** show to bring up. What do they do when we have a get-together shortly before this election? Two Trump signs either side of the entry to their house.

They've never in their lives placed political signs, niether have we. Obviously was a painful "oh ok, so we're trolling our own children now, excellent" moment. You might see how that could push someone away? We haven't disowned them like your daughter, but they're on that line where trolling politics ranks above their family. Kinda ****ty.

Is that going on?

EDIT: almost forgot about the poster calling all democrats are comminists out to round them up and eliminate them. Grow tf up.

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We don't troll our daughter with politics. But thanks for your concern trolling.

And No we do not generally discuss politics with her. But she knows where we stand and tries to provoke. There is no 'let's agree to disagree'.

If you and your family can't handle Trump signs in your family members yard of Fox tv being on … maybe you are the problem?

I don't walk into any family members house and get offended that CNN or MsNBC is on a screen…

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Thought maybe you'd like to hear from "the other side", apologize if you only wanted echo's. I wasn't trolling you.

I gave a real world example where no one was disowned, we still hangout like a normal family, but have polar opposite views...

No one is offended by the TVs, I was giving a gauge of how political they are. Normal people don't leave a single political channel playing 24/7.

If you want to ignore the context surrounding the signs, again, fine.

I don't disagree. But I will draw the line at accepting something I view as wrong. If they cut off the relationship as a result, it would make me incredibly sad. Devastated.

That's doesn't mean I should just drop the standards I believe to be the truth, coming from God himself.


Hence the OPs sadness.

ETFan said:

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Ok, you can say that to me, and we can go in circles all day on that topic.

My example is between parent and child. If that's still your response to your child, go back to sentence one about hard heads.

And sure, maybe if they're that hardline, but don't come crying if you haven't even tried. And it still borders on "politics over children" to me, but... we'll have to agree to disagree lol!

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Again… concern trolling . It is Leftist that are overwhelmingly cutting off the familiy members for such egregious things as voting for Trump, owning a Tesla, or simply having conservative viewpoints.

I'm not removing a political sign from my yard during election years just to not offend the sensibilities of my leftist family members.

My child knows our politics flow from our faith. So she constantly tries to bring it up to berate and insult us. We don't bring it up. Re-read what was said before in an earlier post I made - I don't demand her faith and politics align with mine to have a relationship. She is the one that makes that irrational demand. But at the same time… when asked what we think , we will be honest.

ETFan said:

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TheEternalOptimist said:

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ETFan said:

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Me thinks this is a two way street with two hard heads. Politics must clearly rank above your children if, when brought up, there's enough push back from you to cause them to pull away that hard. That said, they are being unreasonable too.

For example, if the topic of musk came up, you must have voiced your appreciation of him over your daughters concerns of him being a **** head. Have you tried just agreeing? Being the bigger adult? Agree to disagree, politely?

Daughter "hey, I think musk is a nazi, he gave a nazi salute!" You "Yeah, that was a questionable move. Maybe he was trolling? Either way I hope he does better because that's kinda off putting. How's the new job going?..."


My inlaws do this. My wife has clearly shown her disdain for their politics or bringing up politics, they're fox news on every TV, 24/7, conservatives. To the point it's clear, to anyone who cares, that politics is just a **** show to bring up. What do they do when we have a get-together shortly before this election? Two Trump signs either side of the entry to their house.

They've never in their lives placed political signs, niether have we. Obviously was a painful "oh ok, so we're trolling our own children now, excellent" moment. You might see how that could push someone away? We haven't disowned them like your daughter, but they're on that line where trolling politics ranks above their family. Kinda ****ty.

Is that going on?

EDIT: almost forgot about the poster calling all democrats are comminists out to round them up and eliminate them. Grow tf up.

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We don't troll our daughter with politics. But thanks for your concern trolling.

And No we do not generally discuss politics with her. But she knows where we stand and tries to provoke. There is no 'let's agree to disagree'.

If you and your family can't handle Trump signs in your family members yard of Fox tv being on … maybe you are the problem?

I don't walk into any family members house and get offended that CNN or MsNBC is on a screen…

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Thought maybe you'd like to hear from "the other side", apologize if you only wanted echo's. I wasn't trolling you.

I gave a real world example where no one was disowned, we still hangout like a normal family, but have polar opposite views...

No one is offended by the TVs, I was giving a gauge of how political they are. Normal people don't leave a single political channel playing 24/7.

If you want to ignore the context surrounding the signs, again, fine.

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Most of the lefties in this thread has implied the same thing.

Quite honestly - it is impossible to take anything a leftist has to say with any measure of seriousness when I know that the unraveling of my family is precisely what your political movement wants - the destruction of the family in exchange for political power. To turn children from Christian homes against their parents by flooding the culture with the lies of wokeness, lgbtq, wealth redistribution, and praising the glories of the nanny state.

Very sorry to hear this, OP.

I'm with ya. My daughter, only child, is 23.