Infection_Ag11 said:
Ags4DaWin said:
Hullabaloonatic said:
PlaneCrashGuy said:
Ags4DaWin said:
rgag12 said:
I think Europe should guarantee Ukraine's sovereignty in a separate agreement outside of NATO. Otherwise Russia will be tempted to recoup what it sees it "lost" in the upcoming treaty in the future.
Nope. That is for Europe to do.
If Europe wants to protect Ukraine then they better ****ing do it.
The US has to worry about China and keeping them from global hegemony. We can't do that and protect Europe's backyard at the same time.
They need to do some of their own goddam heavy lifting for once.
Well said, Not our war not our problem. America first.
Meanwhile, Trump: "We're going to take Gaza"
So is it America first? or no new wars? or...how do we slogan this contradiction?
Also, Hegseth saying that NATO is off the table and re-establishing borders from 2014 is not happening...why is he just giving away negotiating chips with Russia? Why concede these in public if Trump just started his negotiations with Putin?
You don't know what's going on here. Sit down I will explain it to you.
Trump isn't giving away negotiating chips.
Trump IS chipping away at Putin's publicly stated reasons for going into Ukraine in the first place. Putin has publicly declared that this is a NOBLE WAR for the benefit of oppressed peoples, root out corruption and Nazis, and to defend Russia from those who would attack her.
Putin has said that invading Ukraine was necessary because
1) crimes against humanity regarding ethnic Russians and prorussian people in the Donbas region
2) the USA threatened to annex Ukraine into NATO which would put us missiles in Russia's backyard
3) corruption in Ukraine that was affecting Russians (Ukraine's US funded bioweapons lab)
Now if Trump tells putin that NATO admission is off the table, and that the Donbas regions are not going g to return to Ukraine that means that Putin now has very few reasons and excuses to continue a NOBLE and JUSTIFIED war.
If Putin pivots and says the war is still necessary then he is showing his ass to the world.
Putin is a bully but he's also not ******ed. You can't claim you are fighting a "NOBLE" war if all the noble reasons are addressed.
Trump is taking away Putin's ability to call the war a "noble" undertaking which means if putin continues the war then he shows the world that he is the villain in the story.
That puts the ball squarely in Putin's court.
If Putin decides to publicly turn heel then that gives the rest of the world the excuse to take the gloves off and make attacking internal Russian territory fair game.
Putin doesn't want that. There has so far been a gentleman's agreement to not give Ukraine offensive weapons capable of hitting Russia.
Putin shows his ass now and that agreement goes out the window. Putin doesn't want that.
Let's say this is true: The plan only works if you're actually willing to give Ukraine the ability to hit them hard in the scenario where Putin doesn't back down. Otherwise it's just hollow posturing.
It also fails to recognize the real reason for this conflict that Putin is using the "noble war" lie to distract from. That real reason doesn't really give him the option to back down.
Half of international relations is creating the perception that what your doing is justified which gives allies reasons to aid you and legitimacy to your regime and actions.
For example-
1) being recognized as a country...once you are recognized it opens the door for all sorts of foreign aid.
2) justified vs unjustified wars- gives other countries legitimate ways to help you.
If we take away the appearance of legitimacy to further war then Russia has two choices-
A) continue the war knowing that other countries now have the "freedom" to put their own soldiers on the ground to help Ukraine defend itself and counterattack into Russia proper. This then ALSO gives Europe a legitimate reason to give Ukraine missiles that can be used to strike into Russia proper, something Europe has not yet done as part of the gentleman's agreement. This possibility will scare the hell out of Putin. Moscow is ridiculously close to Ukraine's border 490 kM or appr. 250 miles. If Ukraine is given missiles with even a decent strike range then Moscow then becomes fair game for Ukraine to strike.
B) take your win and go home. Russia has achieved all of its noble stated objectives- freed Donbas from the oppression of western Ukraine, uncovered illegal US bioweapons labs in Ukraine and shut them down, and regained access to the black sea via Crimea.
The cost of Russia engaging in a war in which Moscow becomes fair game for missile strikes is not worth what little else they would gain from continued war.
Trump giving them their "noble" win allows them to quit while they are ahead and claim the Noble Victory Putin desires. From their it will be on Europe to finally get their militaries on line to ensure Putin doesn't get itchy again.
Additionally they need to stop thinking they can do whatever they want because the Americans will come in to save them.
Sometimes you negotiate with a stick via Teddy Roosevelt.
Sometimes the previous administration ****s up so bad you have to give your adversary a way to gracefully claim victory because the previous administration ****ed up any way to force concessions without engaging in all out war and risk nuclear holocaust.
The US is not in a position to force concessions and any attempt to negotiate from a position of power is just going to make the situation worse....the US has no power here. We blew our wad because we were slinging our dick around like we were the biggest kid on the block and Putin called our bluff.
And now that our wad is shot we need to realm and prepare for the upcoming conflict with China....because that has been half of the game being played here- China watching and testing the waters to see just how worn down the US military has become due to its endless wars in the middle east and just how much of a materiale reserve we can muster if they decide to act on some of their designs on countries like Taiwan.
What has happened here is the second option. Trump knows this. He knows the only big stick we can wave at this point js going to all out war and there is ZERO reason we should risk that for a piece of **** land like Ukraine.
If Obama had let Ukraine continue to be Russia's puppet instead of forcibly installing a Russia antagonistic regime and laundering their dirty money through the new government (which was just as corrupt as the Russian government btw) then this would never have happened.
Putin isn't a dumbass.
