Thanks I was listening to a radio program and they had an expert on that went into detail about how the air traffic controllers are the ones that were to blame by allowing the helo to fly down the river wall also trying to land someone on 33M
regional jet crash? (American Airlines) at Reagan (DCA)
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Last: 18 hrs ago by titan
They need to get better experts.
GarlandAg2012 said:The GPS approach into RWY 33 has a 3.1 degree glide slope, which means at the 3300 feet from the runway they would be at about 175-200'. That's the same altitude reported by the helicopter. pic.twitter.com/Qk4PCPT6vk
— Scott Manley (@DJSnM) January 30, 2025
I don't have the knowledge to verify if this is correct, but if so, it changes the narrative on the HC being clearly at fault. I don't mean to imply it makes it the airplane pilot at fault, or ATC, but if that approach and the HC route are both around 200' at the point they cross, that seems like a really bad plan.
They colided at 350'
GarlandAg2012 said:The GPS approach into RWY 33 has a 3.1 degree glide slope, which means at the 3300 feet from the runway they would be at about 175-200'. That's the same altitude reported by the helicopter. pic.twitter.com/Qk4PCPT6vk
— Scott Manley (@DJSnM) January 30, 2025
I don't have the knowledge to verify if this is correct, but if so, it changes the narrative on the HC being clearly at fault. I don't mean to imply it makes it the airplane pilot at fault, or ATC, but if that approach and the HC route are both around 200' at the point they cross, that seems like a really bad plan.
People have pointed out that this guy's math was wrong and it should have read 450'.
The Heli is supposed to be at 200' according to the route charts for helicopters.
I believe the impact occurred at 375'-+
No survivors. 
AggieFlyboy said:setting 30.00 instead of 29.90 would be 100 feet off…would show inside the aircraft at 200 but in reality be at 300'CanyonAg77 said:AggieFlyboy said:Wrong altimeter setting possiblyCatag94 said:
I see on Fox NC that supposedly the last "transmitted" altitude of the UH60 was 200'. Have you seen this? Those radar captures I've seen show 300'+.
How wrong does the setting have to be, to be off by that much?
I think this math is right. 10 feet per tenth but I always hated the questions like this in a written or oral. Same with the "which way do you turn the knob" questions. I don't know, but I know if it gets further away from what I want I turn it the other way.
Yes, sorry maybe I should delete the post. It seems to have a couple of things off which makes it not very useful.Catag94 said:GarlandAg2012 said:The GPS approach into RWY 33 has a 3.1 degree glide slope, which means at the 3300 feet from the runway they would be at about 175-200'. That's the same altitude reported by the helicopter. pic.twitter.com/Qk4PCPT6vk
— Scott Manley (@DJSnM) January 30, 2025
I don't have the knowledge to verify if this is correct, but if so, it changes the narrative on the HC being clearly at fault. I don't mean to imply it makes it the airplane pilot at fault, or ATC, but if that approach and the HC route are both around 200' at the point they cross, that seems like a really bad plan.
People have pointed out that this guy's math was wrong and it should have read 450'.
The Heli is supposed to be at 200' according to the route charts for helicopters.
I believe the impact occurred at 375'-+
Pinochet said:AggieFlyboy said:setting 30.00 instead of 29.90 would be 100 feet off…would show inside the aircraft at 200 but in reality be at 300'CanyonAg77 said:AggieFlyboy said:Wrong altimeter setting possiblyCatag94 said:
I see on Fox NC that supposedly the last "transmitted" altitude of the UH60 was 200'. Have you seen this? Those radar captures I've seen show 300'+.
How wrong does the setting have to be, to be off by that much?
I think this math is right. 10 feet per tenth but I always hated the questions like this in a written or oral. Same with the "which way do you turn the knob" questions. I don't know, but I know if it gets further away from what I want I turn it the other way.
I had to think about it for five minutes…
Catag94 said:GarlandAg2012 said:The GPS approach into RWY 33 has a 3.1 degree glide slope, which means at the 3300 feet from the runway they would be at about 175-200'. That's the same altitude reported by the helicopter. pic.twitter.com/Qk4PCPT6vk
— Scott Manley (@DJSnM) January 30, 2025
I don't have the knowledge to verify if this is correct, but if so, it changes the narrative on the HC being clearly at fault. I don't mean to imply it makes it the airplane pilot at fault, or ATC, but if that approach and the HC route are both around 200' at the point they cross, that seems like a really bad plan.
People have pointed out that this guy's math was wrong and it should have read 450'.
The Heli is supposed to be at 200' according to the route charts for helicopters.
I believe the impact occurred at 375'-+
That's is still to close for any ops I have conducted.
"If you got to tell em who you are, you ain't"
Prayers for all the families and loved ones of the 67 victims.
Per Fox, Reagan ATC was understaffed with only 19 certified ATC controllers out of a need for 30.
Indicated that helicopters and plane take offs and arrivals were handled by two folks not one.
I suspect Trump was aware of this before today's presser.
Indicated that helicopters and plane take offs and arrivals were handled by two folks not one.
I suspect Trump was aware of this before today's presser.
Quote:
Staffing at air control tower was 'not normal,' according to FAA: report
Staffing at the air control tower at Ronald Reagan National Airport was "not normal for the time of day and volume of traffic," according to an internal preliminary Federal Aviation Administration report reviewed by The New York Times.
The controller who was handling helicopters Wednesday night was also instructing planes that were landing and departing from the airport runways, the Times reported. Those assignments are typically assigned to two controllers.
Fox News Digital has reached out to the FAA.
The air control tower at Reagan airport has been understaffed for years with 19 fully certified controllers as of September 2023. However, staffing targets set by the FAA and the controllers' union call for 30.
https://www.foxnews.com/live-news/military-helicopter-crash-dc-airport
I'm guessing this was an ATC catastrophic FUBAR.
Not surprised. In those water temps, survivors had maybe 15 minutes before hypothermia set in. That's if they survived not being burned alive, or ejected out of the plane. I can't imagine what those passengers went through. Only pray that it was a quick death and not prolonged.infinity ag said:
No survivors.
"All the gods, all the heavens, all the hells are within you". Joseph Campbell
in my mind it was quick...they were supposedly still traveling 140MPH or so upon impact, and was at least somewhat of a t bone type collision. I hope and pray that's the case anyhowPsycho Bunny said:Not surprised. In those water, temps survivors had maybe 15 minutes before hypothermia set in. That's if they survived not being burned alive, or ejected out of the plane. I can't imagine what those passengers went through. Only pray that it was a quick death and not prolonged.infinity ag said:
No survivors.
I don't think so.
Things we know:
-ATC contacts PAT25 and notified them of traffic over Wilson Bridge (ai think) at 1,300' and inbound for landing on 33
PAT25 acknowledged and requested visual separation.
-ATC approved visual separation
-19 seconds before impact or so, ATC sounds alarmed when asking PAT if they have the CRJ in sight and tells them to go behind the CRJ
-PAT25 states "aircraft in sight" and once again asks for visual separation.
-Impact happens roughly 1:50 from the first contact by ATC telling PAT25 where the CRJ was at 1300' and headed to runway 33 for landing.
-PAT25 is roughly on Heli route 4 with a published altitude limit for the section they are flying of 200'
-Route 4 crosses an imaginary extension of 33 roughly 0.8 miles from the threshold of the runway. Hence the low altitude required to be maintained.
-impact occurred at 375'-+
What we don't know and should be answered:
-Did ATC previously assign an altitude to PAT25?
-Did ATC give PAT25 and altimeter setting?
-Did ATC have reason to question the altitude or altimeter setting of PAT25
Most of what we can tell, IMO points to an error by the PIC of PAT25 not ATC although, I think ATC could have been more cautious and aggressive in requiring maneuvers for separation.
Things we know:
-ATC contacts PAT25 and notified them of traffic over Wilson Bridge (ai think) at 1,300' and inbound for landing on 33
PAT25 acknowledged and requested visual separation.
-ATC approved visual separation
-19 seconds before impact or so, ATC sounds alarmed when asking PAT if they have the CRJ in sight and tells them to go behind the CRJ
-PAT25 states "aircraft in sight" and once again asks for visual separation.
-Impact happens roughly 1:50 from the first contact by ATC telling PAT25 where the CRJ was at 1300' and headed to runway 33 for landing.
-PAT25 is roughly on Heli route 4 with a published altitude limit for the section they are flying of 200'
-Route 4 crosses an imaginary extension of 33 roughly 0.8 miles from the threshold of the runway. Hence the low altitude required to be maintained.
-impact occurred at 375'-+
What we don't know and should be answered:
-Did ATC previously assign an altitude to PAT25?
-Did ATC give PAT25 and altimeter setting?
-Did ATC have reason to question the altitude or altimeter setting of PAT25
Most of what we can tell, IMO points to an error by the PIC of PAT25 not ATC although, I think ATC could have been more cautious and aggressive in requiring maneuvers for separation.
Were the planes lights not on? Can't tell from videos I've seen.
Unless the pilot doesn't know where or misidentified the Woodrow Bridge.AggieFlyboy said:Martin Q. Blank said:ATC: PAT25, traffic just south of the Woodrow Bridge, a CRJ, it's 1200 feet setting up for runway 33.flown-the-coop said:
Jon Scott, Fox anchor who also is a pilot (I believe) confirmed the last minute switch for the CRJ to use 33 not 1 - possibly due to the departing RJ being a bit delayed taking off (doesn't make total sense to me as I understand 33 crosses 1, but I am not a pilot).
ATC told helo to lookout for the CRJ but they do not appear to have clarified where to look for the CRJ - so the departing one may have been mistaken for the arriving one. ATC should have said more to the effect "confirm CRJ on approach at your 11 o'clock". Again, this per Jon Scott.
Another guy discussed how your eyes can be tricked particularly at night and with multiple moving objects on multiple planes (altitude plane not plane with wings).
PAT25: PAT25 has the traffic in sight, request visual separation.
ATC: Visual separation approved.
This is a good clearance by ATC, one which should be understood by the helicopter
Update...
Watching now
Watching now
Ragoo said:
Were the planes lights not on? Can't tell from videos I've seen.
Yes they were on
Ragoo said:
Were the planes lights not on? Can't tell from videos I've seen.
You didn't see the landing lights?
plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
Landing light, yes
NAV and anti-collision lights - presumably.
But, the CRJ was in a bank turning slightly left on his left base turn to align with 33.Also, the crj was very close buy still somewhat higher than the UH60. So, the UH60 crew would have needed to look up and left more and most believe they were focused on a plane they though ATC was talking about but further way (the one on a longer final for runway 1. Also, I don't know if it was ever confirm that they were using night vision which would have limited the peripheral vision, something that would have been needed for the close proximity.
NAV and anti-collision lights - presumably.
But, the CRJ was in a bank turning slightly left on his left base turn to align with 33.Also, the crj was very close buy still somewhat higher than the UH60. So, the UH60 crew would have needed to look up and left more and most believe they were focused on a plane they though ATC was talking about but further way (the one on a longer final for runway 1. Also, I don't know if it was ever confirm that they were using night vision which would have limited the peripheral vision, something that would have been needed for the close proximity.
Just continues to make it harder to support this guy after begrudgingly voting for him again. Immediately going to point fingers at the same time they're pulling bodies out of the water. You're the president now....everything is your responsibility now...have the cojones to either own it or just skip the blame and offer prayers and commit to making it better. Good grief.flown-the-coop said:
Per Fox, Reagan ATC was understaffed with only 19 certified ATC controllers out of a need for 30.
Indicated that helicopters and plane take offs and arrivals were handled by two folks not one.
I suspect Trump was aware of this before today's presser.
Its like he does good with the ICE raids one minute and the minute tragedy strikes its all 'not my fault'
Catag94 said:
I don't think so.
Things we know:
-ATC contacts PAT25 and notified them of traffic over Wilson Bridge (ai think) at 1,300' and inbound for landing on 33
PAT25 acknowledged and requested visual separation.
-ATC approved visual separation
-19 seconds before impact or so, ATC sounds alarmed when asking PAT if they have the CRJ in sight and tells them to go behind the CRJ
-PAT25 states "aircraft in sight" and once again asks for visual separation.
-Impact happens roughly 1:50 from the first contact by ATC telling PAT25 where the CRJ was at 1300' and headed to runway 33 for landing.
-PAT25 is roughly on Heli route 4 with a published altitude limit for the section they are flying of 200'
-Route 4 crosses an imaginary extension of 33 roughly 0.8 miles from the threshold of the runway. Hence the low altitude required to be maintained.
-impact occurred at 375'-+
What we don't know and should be answered:
-Did ATC previously assign an altitude to PAT25?
-Did ATC give PAT25 and altimeter setting?
-Did ATC have reason to question the altitude or altimeter setting of PAT25
Most of what we can tell, IMO points to an error by the PIC of PAT25 not ATC although, I think ATC could have been more cautious and aggressive in requiring maneuvers for separation.
Agree.
Where is the slight right turn by PAT25 in timing with ATC 2nd instruction where they said to go behind the CRJ?
If going behind this should have been a left turn and a huge red flag should the timing of the turn come after the instruction from ATC.
So are you saying that one ATC controller doing the job of two played no role in this collision?
100% Pure Aggie said:
So are you saying that one ATC controller doing the job of two played no role in this collision?
Not nearly as much as the helo not following instructions and possibly ID'g the wrong AC
BluHorseShu said:Just continues to make it harder to support this guy after begrudgingly voting for him again. Immediately going to point fingers at the same time they're pulling bodies out of the water. You're the president now....everything is your responsibility now...have the cojones to either own it or just skip the blame and offer prayers and commit to making it better. Good grief.flown-the-coop said:
Per Fox, Reagan ATC was understaffed with only 19 certified ATC controllers out of a need for 30.
Indicated that helicopters and plane take offs and arrivals were handled by two folks not one.
I suspect Trump was aware of this before today's presser.
Its like he does good with the ICE raids one minute and the minute tragedy strikes its all 'not my fault'
Own what exactly? If he knows that 1 person was doing the work for 2, how exactly is that on him? It meets what he said which is more than likely bad management and incompetence led to this.
Been busy all day, anyone know if there were any big political names on that plane? I saw where the figure skating people were on it
Both can be true.
I still maintain that in such a high tension high stress, anxiety filled job such as an ATC controller that one ATC controller doing the job of 2 is fubar
I still maintain that in such a high tension high stress, anxiety filled job such as an ATC controller that one ATC controller doing the job of 2 is fubar
https://www.atlantanewsfirst.com/2025/01/30/gwinnett-county-high-school-grad-identified-crew-chief-blackhawk-helicopter-that-crashed-dc/
Army: Crew of Blackhawk that crashed was 'very experienced'
The crew that was flying the Army Blackhawk helicopter when it collided with an American Airlines jet was "very experienced" and were not new to the unit or the congested flying that occurs daily around Washington, D.C.
That is according to Jonathan Koziol, chief of staff for Army aviation.
"Both pilots had flown this specific route before, at night. This wasn't something new to either one of them," Koziol said.
"Even the crew chief in the back has been in the unit for a very long time, very familiar with the area, very familiar with the routing structure."
The crew included an instructor pilot and pilot in command were experienced to the point where either crew member "could manage that helicopter by themselves."
The instructor pilot, who was serving as pilot-in-command, had about 1,000 flight hours, Koziol said. The instructor pilot was evaluating the second pilot who was also qualified as a pilot in command for that night training flight and the pilot who was being evaluated had about 500 flight hours, Koziol said.
Some specifics about copter crew "experience".
Army: Crew of Blackhawk that crashed was 'very experienced'
The crew that was flying the Army Blackhawk helicopter when it collided with an American Airlines jet was "very experienced" and were not new to the unit or the congested flying that occurs daily around Washington, D.C.
That is according to Jonathan Koziol, chief of staff for Army aviation.
"Both pilots had flown this specific route before, at night. This wasn't something new to either one of them," Koziol said.
"Even the crew chief in the back has been in the unit for a very long time, very familiar with the area, very familiar with the routing structure."
The crew included an instructor pilot and pilot in command were experienced to the point where either crew member "could manage that helicopter by themselves."
The instructor pilot, who was serving as pilot-in-command, had about 1,000 flight hours, Koziol said. The instructor pilot was evaluating the second pilot who was also qualified as a pilot in command for that night training flight and the pilot who was being evaluated had about 500 flight hours, Koziol said.
Some specifics about copter crew "experience".
Muy said:BluHorseShu said:Just continues to make it harder to support this guy after begrudgingly voting for him again. Immediately going to point fingers at the same time they're pulling bodies out of the water. You're the president now....everything is your responsibility now...have the cojones to either own it or just skip the blame and offer prayers and commit to making it better. Good grief.flown-the-coop said:
Per Fox, Reagan ATC was understaffed with only 19 certified ATC controllers out of a need for 30.
Indicated that helicopters and plane take offs and arrivals were handled by two folks not one.
I suspect Trump was aware of this before today's presser.
Its like he does good with the ICE raids one minute and the minute tragedy strikes its all 'not my fault'
Own what exactly? If he knows that 1 person was doing the work for 2, how exactly is that on him? It meets what he said which is more than likely bad management and incompetence led to this.
Trump also knows there was a 65% increase in mishaps in controllers from 2023 to 2024.
That's correct.100% Pure Aggie said:
So are you saying that one ATC controller doing the job of two played no role in this collision?
Responsibility went to the helicopter pilot after they asked for visual separation. It's in the video above and has been discussed extensively in this thread with charts, graphs, approach plates, etc,
100% Pure Aggie said:
Both can be true.
I still maintain that in such a high tension high stress, anxiety filled job such as an ATC controller that one ATC controller doing the job of 2 is fubar
I can't fathom how it's helpful in anyway…
Yep. Common Sense
FireAg said:flown-the-coop said:
Per Fox, Reagan ATC was understaffed with only 19 certified ATC controllers out of a need for 30.
Indicated that helicopters and plane take offs and arrivals were handled by two folks not one.
I suspect Trump was aware of this before today's presser.
There was a report out there during the Biden admin that they were turning away qualified FTC applicants because they didn't meet the DEI profile, and they had a quota to meet…
Not trying to be political…but if that's indeed true, then that is a problem…
Oh I think it's true.
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