LMCane said:

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I would bet a lot of money that what the records will show is that:

the CIA dropped the ball in not really pursuing Oswald BEFORE the shooting

that the FBI knew he was in Cuba and the Soviet Union and was a Soviet lackey but did not get the CIA to really put resources into stopping him until it was too late.

that's it.

just like 9/11 where the intel agencies knew something was up, but could not connect the dots in time.

---

Even still, the assassination itself was largely the product of random chance. JFK's trip to Dallas was public before Oswald got the job at the school book depository but the car route was not finalized until the week prior and not published in the paper until the weekend prior, long after Oswald started his job. I commonly hear people claim that job was all part of the plan and it simply cannot possibly be true. That coincidence is the only reason he was able to pull it off. And Oswald lack the skill or resources to carry out some elaborate successful assassination of a US President far from home.

So this idea that he was in cahoots with foreign agencies or governments that actually expected him to pull this off just doesn't pass muster.

Guitarsoup said:

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91AggieLawyer said:

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Quote:

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There is no physical evidence that anyone fired any shots other than Lee Harvey Oswald. There is no physical evidence that any shots were fired from any location other than the 6th Floor of the Texas School Book Depository.

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This is just patently false.

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It is not, but feel free to rant without actual evidence, my friend.

Quote:

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You have the windshield that numerous people, including a St. Louis Post reporter, saw a hole through and cracks were visible in. None of the 3 alleged Oswald shots could account for that.

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Ok, show actual evidence of it.

Quote:

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https://jameshfetzer.org/2015/09/jfk-conspiracy-the-bullet-hole-in-the-windshield/

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[url=https://jameshfetzer.org/2015/09/jfk-conspiracy-the-bullet-hole-in-the-windshield/][/url]James Fetzer is an insane conspiracy theorist that is a holocaust denier that believes Israel was behind 9/11. The website you linked to has no photos or evidence to back up your claims. This is your source? Really?


Fetzer was sued and lost for his statements that Sandy Hook never happened. Here is the case: https://law.justia.com/cases/wisconsin/court-of-appeals/2024/2023ap001002.html

This is the guy you are hanging your hat on?

Quote:

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There are also YT videos showing this.

---

Post evidence. Not insane pieces of **** like Fetzer that have ranting and ravings but not a single shred of evidence.

The actual windshield was brought in to the Warren Commission and the members were able to examine it in addition to the testimony of the FBI expert who examined it.

Mr. SPECTER. Did any of that area examined disclose any impact of such a missile?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; not of a high velocity. Only the lead area smeared on the inside of the windshield from a relatively light object which struck the inside, and did not even break the inside surface of the glass, and then there was a possible bullet impact area at the top of the chrome to the right of the rearview mirror. This was made by a projectile not having the weight or velocity of a whole bullet moving at. in the range of a thousand to 1,500 feet per second or more.

The windshield can still be examined and has been preserved in the National Archives.

Quote:

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You have the Parkland doctors describing the neck wound as one of entry. You also have McClelland talking about how JFK's cerebellum fell out when he was on the table. That wouldn't have occurred under the WC's 3 Oswald shot allegations.

---

JFK wasn't even there long, and they did not do a pathological examination. McClelland took notes at the time of it, and specifically wrote that they did not examine the wounds for entrance or exit, and they knew immediately that they were not survivable. He also wrote at the time that he believed there was a head wound in the forehead that he never saw. We know that is not true and have photographs of Kennedy readily available with no gunshot wound to the forehead. He also wrote that he did not examine the back of Kennedy, and assumed there was an exit.

Dr. Charles S. Carrico, who was also in that room testified:

Q. Based on your observations on the neck wound alone did have a sufficient basis to form an opinion as to whether it was entrance or an exit wound?

A. No, sir; we did not. Not having completely evaluated all the wounds, traced out the course of the bullets, this wound would have been compatible with either entrance or exit wound depending upon the size, the velocity, the tissue structure and so forth.

Dr. Malcolm Perry:

Q. Based on the appearance of the neck wound alone, could it have been either an entrance or an exit wound?

A. It could have been either.

A full jacketed bullet without deformation passing through skin would leave a similar wound for an exit and entrance wound and with the facts which yon have made available and with these assumptions, I believe that it was an exit wound

It should be noted that it was Dr. Perry, not McClelland, Goldstrich, Carrico or McClelland that performed the trach, so he would have known it the best out of all of them.

Dr. Joe Goldstrich:
When I looked down, when the president came in, and there was an initial assessment, and I looked down and I saw this hole in his throat, a little tiny one maybe the size of dime… a small hole. I didn't know anything about ballistics at the time, so I didn't have any idea whether it was an entrance or an exit wound. And frankly, that didn't even come into my mind whether it was an entrance or an exit wound.


So you have four doctors there. One says it is an entry wound. Three say it could have been entry or exit and that they did not examine it pathologically. Those are the facts.

Beyond the fact that these doctors did no pathological examination, there is no way to line up a shot with the throat from another angle other than it being an exit wound from LHO's shot from the TSBD. For the throat to be an entrance and the back to be an exit, the shot would have had to come from John Connally's back. If the throat shot came from the Grassy Knoll, which was like at 2 oclock and high, the bullet would have been travelling from JFK's front right to back left. But the wound on his back was just to the right of his spine. So a frontal shot definitively could not have from from front right, enter the center of his throat, and then change directions without hitting anything but soft tissue and exiting from his back left. Line it up, that theory has no actual basis in what is physically possible.

Quote:

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Finally, you have the SS Agent who actually found CE399 and wasn't called before the WC. Why? Because he found the damn thing in the limo, not on the stretcher as has been widely reported for 60+ years. Instead of being the "magic bullet," it was the one that hit JFK in the back. With just this, the single shooter theory is destroyed.

https://www.amazon.com/Final-Witness-Kennedy-Service-Silence/dp/1641609443

---

[url=https://www.amazon.com/Final-Witness-Kennedy-Service-Silence/dp/1641609443][/url]
Except it is not destroyed, because the exact shot has been replicated multiple times.

Like here:

Quote:

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In fact, there's no actual physical evidence implicating Oswald.

---

This is patently false. Could not be any more false. His gun shot Kennedy. His prints were on the gun. The gun was found in the sniper's nest. LHO took pictures of himself with the gun. He was the last person seen on the 6th floor by anyone before the shooting.

Quote:

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No one SAW him on the 6th floor;

---

Daniel Garcia Arce saw him in the 6th floor shortly before the motorcade.
Charles Givens forgot his cigs on the 6th floor and went back up to get them, and saw Oswald there. His testimony starts around page 350 of the Warren Commission Report.

Quote:

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no one SAW him fire the rifle;

---

Pulitzer Prize winner Bob Jackson was in one of the follow cars and saw the rifle in the window. Bob is best known for taking the photo of Lee Harvey Oswald being shot a couple days after this.
Howard Brennan saw the rifle in the window. He said he was in his 30s and slender.
Amos Eunis saw the rifle in the window.

Quote:

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we know for a fact that Oswald was finger/possibly palm/printed in the morgue. WHY??

---

So agents came, but he can't say who they were, who they were with or any details about it? Is there any corroboration for his story? People with suits and bags showed up and just forced themselves in, forced him to leave, and he never knew who they were, who they worked for, what they looked like?

What exactly does his story prove? We have Oswald's fingerprint cards from DPD from after he shot JD Tippett and was arrested in the theater. The Sniper's next was being fingerprinted before LHO was even arrested.

Why indeed.

Here is the UPI story about LHO's body going to the funeral home and how they assigned 8 cops and 2 dogs to guard it.

Quote:

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There's tons of evidence out there. You've chosen to ignore it.

---

Some old guy telling vague stories about a post mortem fingerprinting of a guy that had already been fingerprinted multiple times isn't exactly evidence. But you are also citing the website of a guy that says the Holocaust never happened and Israel is responsible for 9/11. He also says Sandy Hook wasn't real.

Sorry, buddy, I'm way more confident in my sources than your bull*****

---

I know I have posted it here before a couple of times, but I was extremely fortunate to have spent a month having McClelland as my attending during my General Surgery training at Parkland. One day during a case (which he actually STOLE from me), he got chatty and started talking about that day. Loosely paraphrased, he said that he was holding JFK's cerebellum in his hand during his assistance with the tracheotomy in the neck, Jackie was standing right outside the room, the President was dead, and there was nothing that could be done to save him. Hindsight is always 20/20, and none of the doctors there would have any idea how controversial his death would become. Had he known that, he would have shaved JFK's head, taken his own notes and made drawings, etc. The Secret Service was there and wanted everyone out of the room, whisked off to write down their actions and recollections. Jackie was standing right outside of the room, and everyone wanted her to have a moment prior to his body being taken away.

McClelland was an absolutely brilliant doctor and an honest, ethical human being.

Kool said:

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Guitarsoup said:

---

91AggieLawyer said:

---

Quote:

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There is no physical evidence that anyone fired any shots other than Lee Harvey Oswald. There is no physical evidence that any shots were fired from any location other than the 6th Floor of the Texas School Book Depository.

---

This is just patently false.

---

It is not, but feel free to rant without actual evidence, my friend.

Quote:

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You have the windshield that numerous people, including a St. Louis Post reporter, saw a hole through and cracks were visible in. None of the 3 alleged Oswald shots could account for that.

---

Ok, show actual evidence of it.

Quote:

---

https://jameshfetzer.org/2015/09/jfk-conspiracy-the-bullet-hole-in-the-windshield/

---

[url=https://jameshfetzer.org/2015/09/jfk-conspiracy-the-bullet-hole-in-the-windshield/][/url]James Fetzer is an insane conspiracy theorist that is a holocaust denier that believes Israel was behind 9/11. The website you linked to has no photos or evidence to back up your claims. This is your source? Really?


Fetzer was sued and lost for his statements that Sandy Hook never happened. Here is the case: https://law.justia.com/cases/wisconsin/court-of-appeals/2024/2023ap001002.html

This is the guy you are hanging your hat on?

Quote:

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There are also YT videos showing this.

---

Post evidence. Not insane pieces of **** like Fetzer that have ranting and ravings but not a single shred of evidence.

The actual windshield was brought in to the Warren Commission and the members were able to examine it in addition to the testimony of the FBI expert who examined it.

Mr. SPECTER. Did any of that area examined disclose any impact of such a missile?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; not of a high velocity. Only the lead area smeared on the inside of the windshield from a relatively light object which struck the inside, and did not even break the inside surface of the glass, and then there was a possible bullet impact area at the top of the chrome to the right of the rearview mirror. This was made by a projectile not having the weight or velocity of a whole bullet moving at. in the range of a thousand to 1,500 feet per second or more.

The windshield can still be examined and has been preserved in the National Archives.

Quote:

---

You have the Parkland doctors describing the neck wound as one of entry. You also have McClelland talking about how JFK's cerebellum fell out when he was on the table. That wouldn't have occurred under the WC's 3 Oswald shot allegations.

---

JFK wasn't even there long, and they did not do a pathological examination. McClelland took notes at the time of it, and specifically wrote that they did not examine the wounds for entrance or exit, and they knew immediately that they were not survivable. He also wrote at the time that he believed there was a head wound in the forehead that he never saw. We know that is not true and have photographs of Kennedy readily available with no gunshot wound to the forehead. He also wrote that he did not examine the back of Kennedy, and assumed there was an exit.

Dr. Charles S. Carrico, who was also in that room testified:

Q. Based on your observations on the neck wound alone did have a sufficient basis to form an opinion as to whether it was entrance or an exit wound?

A. No, sir; we did not. Not having completely evaluated all the wounds, traced out the course of the bullets, this wound would have been compatible with either entrance or exit wound depending upon the size, the velocity, the tissue structure and so forth.

Dr. Malcolm Perry:

Q. Based on the appearance of the neck wound alone, could it have been either an entrance or an exit wound?

A. It could have been either.

A full jacketed bullet without deformation passing through skin would leave a similar wound for an exit and entrance wound and with the facts which yon have made available and with these assumptions, I believe that it was an exit wound

It should be noted that it was Dr. Perry, not McClelland, Goldstrich, Carrico or McClelland that performed the trach, so he would have known it the best out of all of them.

Dr. Joe Goldstrich:
When I looked down, when the president came in, and there was an initial assessment, and I looked down and I saw this hole in his throat, a little tiny one maybe the size of dime… a small hole. I didn't know anything about ballistics at the time, so I didn't have any idea whether it was an entrance or an exit wound. And frankly, that didn't even come into my mind whether it was an entrance or an exit wound.


So you have four doctors there. One says it is an entry wound. Three say it could have been entry or exit and that they did not examine it pathologically. Those are the facts.

Beyond the fact that these doctors did no pathological examination, there is no way to line up a shot with the throat from another angle other than it being an exit wound from LHO's shot from the TSBD. For the throat to be an entrance and the back to be an exit, the shot would have had to come from John Connally's back. If the throat shot came from the Grassy Knoll, which was like at 2 oclock and high, the bullet would have been travelling from JFK's front right to back left. But the wound on his back was just to the right of his spine. So a frontal shot definitively could not have from from front right, enter the center of his throat, and then change directions without hitting anything but soft tissue and exiting from his back left. Line it up, that theory has no actual basis in what is physically possible.

Quote:

---

Finally, you have the SS Agent who actually found CE399 and wasn't called before the WC. Why? Because he found the damn thing in the limo, not on the stretcher as has been widely reported for 60+ years. Instead of being the "magic bullet," it was the one that hit JFK in the back. With just this, the single shooter theory is destroyed.

https://www.amazon.com/Final-Witness-Kennedy-Service-Silence/dp/1641609443

---

[url=https://www.amazon.com/Final-Witness-Kennedy-Service-Silence/dp/1641609443][/url]
Except it is not destroyed, because the exact shot has been replicated multiple times.

Like here:

Quote:

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In fact, there's no actual physical evidence implicating Oswald.

---

This is patently false. Could not be any more false. His gun shot Kennedy. His prints were on the gun. The gun was found in the sniper's nest. LHO took pictures of himself with the gun. He was the last person seen on the 6th floor by anyone before the shooting.

Quote:

---

No one SAW him on the 6th floor;

---

Daniel Garcia Arce saw him in the 6th floor shortly before the motorcade.
Charles Givens forgot his cigs on the 6th floor and went back up to get them, and saw Oswald there. His testimony starts around page 350 of the Warren Commission Report.

Quote:

---

no one SAW him fire the rifle;

---

Pulitzer Prize winner Bob Jackson was in one of the follow cars and saw the rifle in the window. Bob is best known for taking the photo of Lee Harvey Oswald being shot a couple days after this.
Howard Brennan saw the rifle in the window. He said he was in his 30s and slender.
Amos Eunis saw the rifle in the window.

Quote:

---

we know for a fact that Oswald was finger/possibly palm/printed in the morgue. WHY??

---

So agents came, but he can't say who they were, who they were with or any details about it? Is there any corroboration for his story? People with suits and bags showed up and just forced themselves in, forced him to leave, and he never knew who they were, who they worked for, what they looked like?

What exactly does his story prove? We have Oswald's fingerprint cards from DPD from after he shot JD Tippett and was arrested in the theater. The Sniper's next was being fingerprinted before LHO was even arrested.

Why indeed.

Here is the UPI story about LHO's body going to the funeral home and how they assigned 8 cops and 2 dogs to guard it.

Quote:

---

There's tons of evidence out there. You've chosen to ignore it.

---

Some old guy telling vague stories about a post mortem fingerprinting of a guy that had already been fingerprinted multiple times isn't exactly evidence. But you are also citing the website of a guy that says the Holocaust never happened and Israel is responsible for 9/11. He also says Sandy Hook wasn't real.

Sorry, buddy, I'm way more confident in my sources than your bull*****

---

I know I have posted it here before a couple of times, but I was extremely fortunate to have spent a month having McClelland as my attending during my General Surgery training at Parkland. One day during a case (which he actually STOLE from me), he got chatty and started talking about that day. Loosely paraphrased, he said that he was holding JFK's cerebellum in his hand during his assistance with the tracheotomy in the neck, Jackie was standing right outside the room, the President was dead, and there was nothing that could be done to save him. Hindsight is always 20/20, and none of the doctors there would have any idea how controversial his death would become. Had he known that, he would have shaved JFK's head, taken his own notes and made drawings, etc. The Secret Service was there and wanted everyone out of the room, whisked off to write down their actions and recollections. Jackie was standing right outside of the room, and everyone wanted her to have a moment prior to his body being taken away.

McClelland was an absolutely brilliant doctor and an honest, ethical human being.

---

Thanks for sharing! It was an awful situation those doctors were put into, and clearly evident that there was nothing they could do just from the Zapruder film.The added stress of Jackie (covered in blood) and Secret Service there certainly made it all the more stressful.

Goldstrich says he wanted to speak up about not doing a trach since there was no possible saving Kennedy, and has already regretted not speaking up, but there was also a lot more stigma then than now about a fellow speaking up to the actual surgeons.

A friend from JH and HS fas been nominated as a senior advisor to RFK

He would help me cheat in math and I would write for him

Very cool

Quote:

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Yeah, and I think you know way more than I do about that. It is absolutely odd. Everything about it is. And I think that most of what we don't know concerns that trip. I think some of that is because the CIA had been told by GDM that Oswald took the shots on Walker, then was in the Russian/Cuban embassies in CDMX and they still did little to nothing about him. How was the information handled about both these events? This is what I am most interested in finding out about.

---

Thanks for the detailed reply, your writings about this deal are like reviewing a fascinating lecture on a topic with a myriad of details and I have always appreciated them.

After reading your reply, and I meant to respond sooner, I found myself going down the rabbit hole of GDM and yet again LHO's trip to CDMX. Years ago, like when the internet wasn't near as inclusive as it is today I did a bunch of looking and following odd links in the Oswald's trip and activities in Mexico. One thing that wasn't near as available years ago was the Spanish/Mexican articles and information on LHO in Mexico. This time around I found myself with a lot more stuff to review. Also, the fact that several years ago it became public knowledge that 4 Mexican presidents had been CIA assets and or willing or compromised collaborators has added another level of interest on the Mexican side and connected many dots that were not as interesting as before. https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB204/

As you well know, these documents, articles, suppositions, blogs, books, and what not, both amateur & professional can be overwhelming. Now, what I did find was more information on LHO's trip to Mexico. And if any of the information that I am now seeing is accurate it further makes things nebulous.

• The certainty of the travel means, dates, and times for LHO going and coming from CDMX, and even the route to a minor degree, is uncertain. On the Mexican side of things the times do not line up given the immigration documentation and such. Eyewitness accounts are a little contradictory and his activities in Mexico appear to cleansed.
• In both the American and Mexican reports one thing becomes obvious; the Soviet and Cuban embassies & consulates were well "covered" and "penetrated" by both Mexican, acting as CIA proxy, and American intelligence services. All entries and exits were monitored and photographed. Phone lines tapped, and inside sources debriefed regularly. Yet there is not one picture, one existing recording, nor an immediate interview, documented and saved, of LHO's 5 trips to the offices. Two of which were done after hours and supposedly caused some type of minor "scenes".
• LHO travels to Mexico, and contrary to his known personality, makes himself known to various passengers on one leg of the bus trip. Even showing his Russian entry stamps on expired passport and telling them about living in Russia. Why?
• The reason, purported, for LHO to go to CDMX was to get a Cuban visa to go to Russia again. With a renewed passport, which the US state department gave to supposed well known unstable previous defector, he really didn't need to go through Cuba and or could have gotten to Cuba without going to CDMX first.
• Mexicans witnesses, reliable ones, claim LHO had been in CDMX previously and on this second trip even took in a bullfight and had time to meet with and get to know student, popular student, agitators at UNAM, the huge Mexican National University.
• And, as I had mentioned previously, he travels to and from Laredo, through Monterrey, Monclova, San Luis Potosi, Queretaro, with no problem at all. All while all Mexican interviewees say he spoke little to no functional Spanish and was hard to communicate with.

I have no point to make in all of this and again, I am not arguing anything other than this is all so odd and the fact that the Mexico City CIA station, at the time, hardly pays any attention LHO is just baffling. Winston Scott, the well known CIA man in Mexico City (my grandparents knew him and knew he was CIA or American intelligence) is another interesting figure in all of this. He somewhat mysteriously dies in 1971 after being put out to pasture and just prior to him meeting with the director of the CIA to go over his upcoming memoir. Which after his death gets confiscated by the CIA and sanitized only to be published many years later.

In all of this someone would have to have an incredible imagination to conjure up such a convoluted and conspiracy inspiring chain of events and cast of characters. That is my whole issue with something like this, there is no evidence of any one master manipulator or any overt conspiracy, but goodness how events transpired, and by the characters involved, the locations, and the machinations one can't help but believe that there is a lot that isn't known by the public.

thanks for the heads up. I knew it was a huge book

RGV AG said:

---

Quote:

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Yeah, and I think you know way more than I do about that. It is absolutely odd. Everything about it is. And I think that most of what we don't know concerns that trip. I think some of that is because the CIA had been told by GDM that Oswald took the shots on Walker, then was in the Russian/Cuban embassies in CDMX and they still did little to nothing about him. How was the information handled about both these events? This is what I am most interested in finding out about.

---

Thanks for the detailed reply, your writings about this deal are like reviewing a fascinating lecture on a topic with a myriad of details and I have always appreciated them.

After reading your reply, and I meant to respond sooner, I found myself going down the rabbit hole of GDM and yet again LHO's trip to CDMX. Years ago, like when the internet wasn't near as inclusive as it is today I did a bunch of looking and following odd links in the Oswald's trip and activities in Mexico. One thing that wasn't near as available years ago was the Spanish/Mexican articles and information on LHO in Mexico. This time around I found myself with a lot more stuff to review. Also, the fact that several years ago it became public knowledge that 4 Mexican presidents had been CIA assets and or willing or compromised collaborators has added another level of interest on the Mexican side and connected many dots that were not as interesting as before. https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB204/

As you well know, these documents, articles, suppositions, blogs, books, and what not, both amateur & professional can be overwhelming. Now, what I did find was more information on LHO's trip to Mexico. And if any of the information that I am now seeing is accurate it further makes things nebulous.

• The certainty of the travel means, dates, and times for LHO going and coming from CDMX, and even the route to a minor degree, is uncertain. On the Mexican side of things the times do not line up given the immigration documentation and such. Eyewitness accounts are a little contradictory and his activities in Mexico appear to cleansed.
• In both the American and Mexican reports one thing becomes obvious; the Soviet and Cuban embassies & consulates were well "covered" and "penetrated" by both Mexican, acting as CIA proxy, and American intelligence services. All entries and exits were monitored and photographed. Phone lines tapped, and inside sources debriefed regularly. Yet there is not one picture, one existing recording, nor an immediate interview, documented and saved, of LHO's 5 trips to the offices. Two of which were done after hours and supposedly caused some type of minor "scenes".
• LHO travels to Mexico, and contrary to his known personality, makes himself known to various passengers on one leg of the bus trip. Even showing his Russian entry stamps on expired passport and telling them about living in Russia. Why?
• The reason, purported, for LHO to go to CDMX was to get a Cuban visa to go to Russia again. With a renewed passport, which the US state department gave to supposed well known unstable previous defector, he really didn't need to go through Cuba and or could have gotten to Cuba without going to CDMX first.
• Mexicans witnesses, reliable ones, claim LHO had been in CDMX previously and on this second trip even took in a bullfight and had time to meet with and get to know student, popular student, agitators at UNAM, the huge Mexican National University.
• And, as I had mentioned previously, he travels to and from Laredo, through Monterrey, Monclova, San Luis Potosi, Queretaro, with no problem at all. All while all Mexican interviewees say he spoke little to no functional Spanish and was hard to communicate with.

I have no point to make in all of this and again, I am not arguing anything other than this is all so odd and the fact that the Mexico City CIA station, at the time, hardly pays any attention LHO is just baffling. Winston Scott, the well known CIA man in Mexico City (my grandparents knew him and knew he was CIA or American intelligence) is another interesting figure in all of this. He somewhat mysteriously dies in 1971 after being put out to pasture and just prior to him meeting with the director of the CIA to go over his upcoming memoir. Which after his death gets confiscated by the CIA and sanitized only to be published many years later.

In all of this someone would have to have an incredible imagination to conjure up such a convoluted and conspiracy inspiring chain of events and cast of characters. That is my whole issue with something like this, there is no evidence of any one master manipulator or any overt conspiracy, but goodness how events transpired, and by the characters involved, the locations, and the machinations one can't help but believe that there is a lot that isn't known by the public.

---

Great post. I think all the Mexico City stuff is super off and probably what we know collectively the least about. You probably know more about it than I do. I would also guess that we have actual wiretaps and audio recordings of Oswald in the embassies there so we know what he said and did. I think there are photos and audio recordings of him in Mexico City that have been kept private/redacted. While the spies there at the time are likely all dead, there could be security concerns for their kids.

Also, Oswald knew he didn't have to go to Cuba to go to Russia, because he went via Helsinki when he went there 4 years earlier. It also seemed clear that Russia, Cuba, and the US really wanted nothing to do with him.

Quote:

---

Yeah, and I think you know way more than I do about that. It is absolutely odd. Everything about it is. And I think that most of what we don't know concerns that trip. I think some of that is because the CIA had been told by GDM that Oswald took the shots on Walker, then was in the Russian/Cuban embassies in CDMX and they still did little to nothing about him. How was the information handled about both these events? This is what I am most interested in finding out about.

---

Up until a few years ago, I hadn't heard of Walker. Internet searching this incident led to an interesting angle of the assassination. From what I read, it seems many think Oswald did make the attempt.

What evidence exists other than GDM?

Marina Oswald knew too. She actually had it in writing from Lee.

Gator92 said:

---

Quote:

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Yeah, and I think you know way more than I do about that. It is absolutely odd. Everything about it is. And I think that most of what we don't know concerns that trip. I think some of that is because the CIA had been told by GDM that Oswald took the shots on Walker, then was in the Russian/Cuban embassies in CDMX and they still did little to nothing about him. How was the information handled about both these events? This is what I am most interested in finding out about.

---

Up until a few years ago, I hadn't heard of Walker. Internet searching this incident led to an interesting angle of the assassination. From what I read, it seems many think Oswald did make the attempt.

What evidence exists other than GDM?

---

A couple weeks before the assassination attempt, Oswald went to Walker's house and photographed it.

This is a photo that Oswald had among his belongings when he was arrested of the Walker house.



Marina Oswald testified that LHO admitted to shooting at Walker.

The ammo used to shoot at Kennedy and the ammo used to shoot at Walker matched metallurgically. The Walker bullet was too badly damaged to match it forensically.



Oswald left this note for Marina when he went to assassinate Walker.



Translation of the note:

Quote:

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1. This is the key to the mailbox which is located in the main post office in the city on Ervay Street. This is the same street where the drugstore, in which you always waited is located. You will find the mailbox in the post office which is located 4 blocks from the drugstore on that street. I paid for the box last month so don't worry about it.
2. Send the information as to what happened to me to the Embassy and include newspaper clippings (should there be anything about me in the newspapers). I believe the Embassy will come quickly to your assistance on learning everything.
3. I paid the house rent on the 2d so don't worry about it.
4. Recently I also paid for water and gas.
5. The money from work will possibly be coming. The money will be sent to our post office box. Go to the bank and cash the check.
6. You can either throw out or give my clothing etc. away. Do not keep these. However, I prefer that you hold onto my personal papers (military, civil etc.).
7. Certain of my documents are in the small blue valise.
8. The address book can be found on my table in the study should you need same.
9. We have friends here. The Red Cross will also help you. (Red Cross (in English).
10. I left you as much money as I could, $60 on the second of the month. You and the baby [apparently] [translator's note - illegible - possibly baby's name] can live for another 2 months using $10 per week.
11. If I am alive and taken prisoner, the city jail is located at the end of the bridge through which we always passed on going to the city (right in beginning of the city after crossing the bridge).

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Both the Warren Commission and the House Select Committee on Assassinations concluded Oswald did it.

If Oswald made the shots that killed Kennedy, how did he miss Walker?

Has anyone ever asked this question?

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Great post. I think all the Mexico City stuff is super off and probably what we know collectively the least about. You probably know more about it than I do. I would also guess that we have actual wiretaps and audio recordings of Oswald in the embassies there so we know what he said and did. I think there are photos and audio recordings of him in Mexico City that have been kept private/redacted. While the spies there at the time are likely all dead, there could be security concerns for their kids.

Also, Oswald knew he didn't have to go to Cuba to go to Russia, because he went via Helsinki when he went there 4 years earlier. It also seemed clear that Russia, Cuba, and the US really wanted nothing to do with him.

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On the contrary, I believe you have incredibly fact based knowledge of all this stuff. The Mexico City deal is just complicated in the sense that you have a Mexican versions of things, American versions of things, American version of things collected by the Mexicans, American version which is supposition, and a mixing of all four.

My opinion, based on all that I can read, is that LHO went down there for something. What it was? Who knows and that is the mystery. The official US version is that he went down there to get a visa to transit through Cuba to the USSR, which he didn't need. How did he so easily get down there and have no issues and make no spectacle of himself to the DFS or anyone else really while undertaking actions that had resulted in countless others being detained by the DFS? He also got "extra special" attention at the Embassy and Consulate. How? And why wasn't this a bell ringing, 3 alarm issue to the CIA and DFS?

There were tapes, Scott supposedly had tapes of LHO calls to the Cubans and Russians and purportedly some others that he obtained from the DFS. All were confiscated and disappeared by the CIA immediately, I mean like within 24 hours after Scott's death. What Scott's family relates is another whole conspiracy. Also, Phillip Agee was around and a little involved in all of this.

Given the fact that the Mexican's have come out and said "4 of our last 7 presidents were CIA assets" publicly I can't see the concern being on the Mexican end for any blowback. There have always been rumors and innuendos at the high level of Mexican politics that the CIA has usually been able to compromise high level Mexican government officials to have them do their bidding, much of this was financial. Part of the criticism and internal red flags against Scott were that he was outta hand with the pesos to the Mexicans.

I also think that it is very possible that the whole "double/imposter" thing could be real and that is why there are no photographs of LHO in Mexico. The Cuban and Soviet staff interviewed by the DFS gave varying descriptions of the LHO they met as did some of the Mexican, Spanish speaking only, witnesses to supposed LHO travel. Many described him as blond. The English speaking witnesses are a slight bit too convenient in their stories for my taste.

At the end of all this, if LHO was only a bumbling, socially awkward, shallow dolt why what he did or didn't do in CDMX remains so veiled in secrecy? Also, how can he afford to do all of this travel and such. It cost him at least $95 USD at the time, not counting food, lodging, extras, tips, to supposedly get down and back from New Orleans through Houston, to Laredo, to CDMX and then back to Dallas. And as best recollection all he had was around $200. Possible? I guess, likely I don't think so.

I really appreciate your input into these discussions boss. Your points are well made and well founded.

Gator92 said:

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If Oswald made the shots that killed Kennedy, how did he miss Walker?

Has anyone ever asked this question?

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Lots of times. He did hit Walker, but the round glanced off the wood frame part of the window and broke up. Pieces of the bullet then hit Walker and the wall.

Was curious if others have red Stephen King's 11/22/1963. I am certain the JFK experts here can quickly point out it is a fictional novel and the inconsistencies, but I do believe King did some decent research on Oswald's activities pre-assassination (and given plot of book you get to go over it again and again).

The more you learn about Oswald the bigger enigma he becomes, but also gives clues as to his mental state.

For now, I remain in the camp of him doing this alone, motivated by several different issues, and fell in to the opportunity that presented itself that morning.

I imagine if there was ever an actual investigation we would learn lots of layers about the would-be Trump assassins as well (not to derail, just a comment).

Oswald is what happens when a narcissist realizes he isn't as grand as he thought he was.

Yes, he seems a delusioned narcissist hell bent on relevancy. He achieved the fame though he only got to enjoy it for a day or so. That may have been enough for him.

I don't really read any fiction. I know the book exists, but dont really know anything about it.

Gator92 said:

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If Oswald made the shots that killed Kennedy, how did he miss Walker?

Has anyone ever asked this question?

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Yes. Walker was in his house and Oswald had to make the shot through a closed window. Totally different kind of shot from the motorcade. People have consistently overestimated the difficulty of the shot that Oswald made to kill JFK.

I read both though I love me some "faction" writers who blend loose history with action / adventure. Cussler, Steve Berry, Jack De Brul.

Literally have read every Clive Cussler book, even the posthumous ones that are a bit goofy and repetitive.

Berry in particular does tons of research and includes an epilogue where he sorts truth from fiction.

Again, appreciate all your info!

I grew up in Dallas. My Dad was working across the street from Parkland when it happened. They were listening to the radio and went outside and witnessed the motorcade pulling into the hospital.

He said the motorcade turned left from Motor St into the oncoming lanes of Harry Hines then pulling into Parkland.

After reading up on Walker, I now know why we called Flag Pole Hill what we did...

G Martin 87 said:

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Gator92 said:

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If Oswald made the shots that killed Kennedy, how did he miss Walker?

Has anyone ever asked this question?

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Yes. Walker was in his house and Oswald had to make the shot through a closed window. Totally different kind of shot from the motorcade. People have consistently overestimated the difficulty of the shot that Oswald made to kill JFK.

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I agree and most don't realize how close it was. The other question is why didn't he take the shot as the motorcade was coming toward the SBD. Would have been even less deflection.

BQ78 said:

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Oswald is what happens when a narcissist realizes he isn't as grand as he thought he was.

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Also, he was a communist, a known defector. How could a lone wolf commie kill a sitting US president all by himself? This is why some of the conspiracy mania has been allowed to flourish down through the decades, imho. Think how bad it makes everybody look. So with a wink and a nudge they said, "Oh yeah. It must have been a giant conspiracy."

Gator92 said:

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G Martin 87 said:

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Gator92 said:

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If Oswald made the shots that killed Kennedy, how did he miss Walker?

Has anyone ever asked this question?

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Yes. Walker was in his house and Oswald had to make the shot through a closed window. Totally different kind of shot from the motorcade. People have consistently overestimated the difficulty of the shot that Oswald made to kill JFK.

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I agree and most don't realize how close it was. The other question is why didn't he take the shot as the motorcade was coming toward the SBD. Would have been even less deflection.

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Because then everyone is looking right at the muzzle flash instead of away from it.

Also, because of the angle (coming towards him and directly below him) it is a much more difficult shot than going down the hill and away on Elm. Because it was down the hill, the target was kind of stationary.

Several Marines testified to the Warren Commission that it was a very easy shot for someone of Oswald's skill level.

Infection_Ag11 said:

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bonfarr said:

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100% agree with this take. Conspiracy theorists are going to be disappointed after all of the files are released but I don't think it will change one single mind on the subject.

I just don't believe a plot that killed a sitting US President could be kept a secret for 60 years when hundreds of people would have been involved.

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The problem with all conspiracy theories on this scale is they require us to ascribe a degree of hyper competence and secrecy to a large number of people, many of whom would have worked for the federal government, that is entirely unwarranted and undeserved.

The reality is that people just simply cannot accept that the most powerful and protected man in the world was murdered by a 24 year old minimum wage office worker on the basis of random opportunity. That is a degree of universal disorder and lack of structure that makes people very uncomfortable with their own lives and the world around them. It therefore MUST be some grand conspiracy.

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Completely. There is a strong tendency for people to reject simple explanations for world changing events.

Oswald seems to have had a bad history with first shots either due to nervousness or bad luck. The Walker shot hits the window frame and fragments. That shot was even easier to make than the not too difficult Kennedy shot.

Then his first shot on November 22 is a complete miss probably due to deflection as well (tree or traffic light) or just a nervous miss hitting the curb on Elm.

G Martin 87 said:

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Infection_Ag11 said:

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bonfarr said:

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100% agree with this take. Conspiracy theorists are going to be disappointed after all of the files are released but I don't think it will change one single mind on the subject.

I just don't believe a plot that killed a sitting US President could be kept a secret for 60 years when hundreds of people would have been involved.

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The problem with all conspiracy theories on this scale is they require us to ascribe a degree of hyper competence and secrecy to a large number of people, many of whom would have worked for the federal government, that is entirely unwarranted and undeserved.

The reality is that people just simply cannot accept that the most powerful and protected man in the world was murdered by a 24 year old minimum wage office worker on the basis of random opportunity. That is a degree of universal disorder and lack of structure that makes people very uncomfortable with their own lives and the world around them. It therefore MUST be some grand conspiracy.

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Completely. There is a strong tendency for people to reject simple explanations for world changing events.

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Yup. And what's funny is the people who tell you it was a government conspiracy/coverup are the same people who will tell you the government is full of incompetent idiots.

To be fair, USSS protection standards were in need of improvement in 1963, they refused the "bubble" for the limo, and the parade route left something to be desired regarding opportunity.

Not that much different than the series of errors, omissions and bad calls in Butler, PA in 2024.

Question still remains whether the USSS has resolved those shortcomings from this past summer.

flown-the-coop said:

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To be fair, USSS protection standards were in need of improvement in 1963, they refused the "bubble" for the limo, and the parade route left something to be desired regarding opportunity.

Not that much different than the series of errors, omissions and bad calls in Butler, PA in 2024.

Question still remains whether the USSS has resolved those shortcomings from this past summer.

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Bubble top wasn't even bulletproof. It was just for rain. Maybe it would have deflected a bullet, but it was just 1/4" plexiglass.

the declassified documents will likely just tell us what we already know. Oswald, James Earl Ray, and Sirhan Sirhan all acted alone. There was no elaborate government conspiracy.

Will that satisfy the conspiracy theorists? Of course not.
First rule of conspiracy theory is to only believe the evidence that confirms your priors. Any contradictory evidence is immediately dismissed as "faked" or "altered".

AggieUSMC said:

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the declassified documents will likely just tell us what we already know. Oswald, James Earl Ray, and Sirhan Sirhan all acted alone. There was no elaborate government conspiracy.

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Which begs the question - why were people begging Trump not to declassify everything a few years back? Saying that declassification would be a "catastrophe"?

fc2112 said:

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AggieUSMC said:

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the declassified documents will likely just tell us what we already know. Oswald, James Earl Ray, and Sirhan Sirhan all acted alone. There was no elaborate government conspiracy.

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Which begs the question - why were people begging Trump not to declassify everything a few years back? Saying that declassification would be a "catastrophe"?

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Gonna ruin the lives of a bunch of conspiracy theorist grifters that have to make their living off of spreading baseless nonsense.

Would have almost certainly made sighting his target much harder as well, depending on distortion from the curve of the plexiglass, reflections, etc.

May have even discouraged Oswald enough to not attempt the shots.

Trump was saved by an impromptu turn of the head to look at "that beautiful life saving chart, God I love that chart".

Just an interesting point about all the things that needed to fall in place - and of course provides kindling for the conspiracy folks.

Yeah, I think a normal shooter would have been dissuaded by the bubble, but who knows on LHO. No way to really know what he would have thought to do in that situation. He's not gonna get another chance on the President like that.

It wasn't the secret service that made the decision to leave the bubble top off, they wanted it. But JFK overruled them and told them to leave it off.

That is my understanding as well. But as Guitersoup pointed out, the bubble was there primarily for weather and if memory serves there were thoughts that there may be sprinkles and JFK wanted to go topless and take his chances.

I do not believe the bubble was part of any conspiracy, just another example of all the pieces having to come together for a successful assassination.