Prior to a few years ago, the most I'd ever paid for a vehicle was $24k. Since then, we've bought two that were each in the $35-40k range - one new and one used.

All these new vehicles have bells and whistles I hadn't imagined, but they come at a price. Some, such as safety features, I've found to be extremely helpful.

Others, such as auto stop-start, are a byproduct of government regulation that add both complexity (read "more ways to break") and price to a vehicle.

And then others are just thrown in over time as a function of what I'll call "feature inflation".

Hard to compete with Toyota.

Ag_of_08 said:

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Noone can truthfully afford them. People are making it happen, but not nearly as fast as traditionally. The situation really has to give, or the auto industry will self immolate

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They will just extend loan terms again. Get ready for idiots taking out 10 year notes on rapidly depreciating assets.

People who car shop by monthly payment are the ones who drove car prices up. Low interest rates and long notes have made unaffordable cars artificially affordable for the idiots.

Absolutely makes sense. Knowing practically nothing about cars and the industry a couple months ago to knowing 2% now, I'm sure what I see will change over time.

One thing that doesn't appear to be changing is that car engineers must really like their jobs and as such do some pretty stupid things to ensure they're still needed

Ag_of_08 said:

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the most cool guy said:

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Ag_of_08 said:

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There are Ford dealers suing Ford over not buying back inventory. A quick browse of YouTube will show you dealership after dealership with cars that have been sitting for nearly a year unable to move. Even the auctions are having issues.

They're not discounting, but they're also flailing trying to move inventory. The desperation point is approaching quickly.

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I was addressing your claim of 40% off MSRP deals. Can you point to one? Literally anywhere?

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I did not say they are currently selling for 40% off. I said if they don't do something they'll struggle to sell at that price point...

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I do remember Infiniti cutting prices on the 24 qx80s by 15k+

In Houston "big altima energy" is a real thing. Give em space on freeway, because they DGAF how they drive or who they hit. Whenever I see a Nissan, I immediately judge the driver.

Ag_of_08 said:

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The utter failure of their cvt isn't helping.

All the car companies are flailing though. Stellantis has crapped the bed, Ford is scrambling to not get sued by its dealerships and sell it's inventory off at 40% of msrp, Chevy and dodge have crap failing and can't move inventory like Ford, and Toyota has trucks grenadine engines hand over fist.

People need a 15k car option, a 20k truck option, and the average vehicle to be affordable on a 40-50k salary. Instead the carmakers are producing 40-50k vehicles as BASE models and wondering why they're failing.

I had a Toyota salesman call my work phone today by accident. I politely told him what was up, and he still begged to get me in. They're all desperate, and there's just no way the overwhelming majority can entertain the discussion.

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In the past couple of days, I've watched YouTube videos by regular people and news outlets talking about the same things you mentioned.

If auto companies aren't making cheaper models, then it's just common sense that they won't need the plants the vehicles were made in or the people who worked in them.

The way things are going, there'll be even fewer options than there already are, with the auto companies thrilled with it because what are you consumers going to do, build their own vehicles?

Not to hijack, but Japan is disappearing. They will have half the population they have now in the year 2100, around 65 million, with about half of that being 65 and older. That is a linear decline over time, about a 6.5% reduction each decade. Many of these Japanese companies, like Nissan, will disappear also. It's a population collapse.

wts2014 said:

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Absolutely makes sense. Knowing practically nothing about cars and the industry a couple months ago to knowing 2% now, I'm sure what I see will change over time.

One thing that doesn't appear to be changing is that car engineers must really like their jobs and as such do some pretty stupid things to ensure they're still needed

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No doubt. It's tradition for mechanics to ***** about engineers. And there's usually good evidence for it.

Since this is on Politics, I'm going to chalk alot of this up to Democrats. Somehow, someway they have f'ed this up.

Going forward, we are likely only buying Kia or Hyundai/Genesis and will only pay cash. Granted, with where we live we can't really own anything that isn't very mainstream because there are few dealers out here and I won't own anything remotely exotic with no access to a dealer.

We currently own Cadillacs so we just hope they don't blow up every time we get in them.

Re: "no doubt. It's tradition for mechanics to ***** about engineers. And there's usually good evidence for it."

Went down the rabbit hole of high-end German auto's getting mechanical servicing.

i.e. oil change.

So complicated / labor intensive with the need for specialized tools to remove bits and pieces to get to the drain plug and to change out the filter

It becomes obvious why a "simple" oil change in those autos is $$$s

In-sane.

No Spin Ag said:

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Ag_of_08 said:

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The utter failure of their cvt isn't helping.

All the car companies are flailing though. Stellantis has crapped the bed, Ford is scrambling to not get sued by its dealerships and sell it's inventory off at 40% of msrp, Chevy and dodge have crap failing and can't move inventory like Ford, and Toyota has trucks grenadine engines hand over fist.

People need a 15k car option, a 20k truck option, and the average vehicle to be affordable on a 40-50k salary. Instead the carmakers are producing 40-50k vehicles as BASE models and wondering why they're failing.

I had a Toyota salesman call my work phone today by accident. I politely told him what was up, and he still begged to get me in. They're all desperate, and there's just no way the overwhelming majority can entertain the discussion.

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In the past couple of days, I've watched YouTube videos by regular people and news outlets talking about the same things you mentioned.

If auto companies aren't making cheaper models, then it's just common sense that they won't need the plants the vehicles were made in or the people who worked in them.

The way things are going, there'll be even fewer options than there already are, with the auto companies thrilled with it because what are you consumers going to do, build their own vehicles?

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I still think there is a break point when they won't have enough business to keep going, or the call to import cheaper vehicles will escalate quickly.

Protectionist tarriffs will only go so far in stopping that. Some of this has been an intentional attempt to strangle out IC vehicles, but some of it is stupid and greedy companies trying to wring the last dimes out of the covid era stupidity.

I have a hunch we will see the bubble pop this year. I also think we may see the return of some degree of sanity before 2026( if Trump actually puts the squash on the EPA regulations) with the return of actual base model vehicles that the average wage earner can somewhat afford.

They can't move inventory right now... that's a 100% fact, the lots are full to the brim and dealerships are fighting to get rid of older models. Something has to give, or the whole industry will implode.

Well, the traditional makers are about to lose their ass even more in Europe with China dumping cars into that market. It's already a major problem. China has an unbelievable number of car companies because it's floated and incentivized by the government. At some point, people are going to overlook that they are Chinese and just buy on price.

We need to get the government out of this sector and alot of this will correct itself. You will still have some bloodletting that comes out of it but that would be a healthy thing in the long run.

100% agree on that one. I think there big makers are capable of producing vehicles that meet the value/quality break point, but the .government has got to get out of it.

I hate that a few states like California are going to be the biggest hurdle to that, but...

Ag_of_08 said:

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100% agree on that one. I think there big makers are capable of producing vehicles that meet the value/quality break point, but the .government has got to get out of it.

I hate that a few states like California are going to be the biggest hurdle to that, but...

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California is a cancer, and they just keep doubling down on idiocy. And the problem is that they are so huge companies bend the knee to them and then the rest of the country is forced to reckon with business decisions that are forced by that market.

So, Trump may very well kill or limit the absurd CAFE regs that Biden forced upon us, but California will still ride or die with those standards and probably make them even more stringent within California as part of their announced campaign of resistance against Trump.

Ag_of_08 said:

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100% agree on that one. I think there big makers are capable of producing vehicles that meet the value/quality break point, but the .government has got to get out of it.

I hate that a few states like California are going to be the biggest hurdle to that, but...

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The auto companies already had plenty of vehicles that met the value/quality break point. They have chosen to stop making those vehicles because they can make greater profits on higher-priced vehicles.

Where do you see the government being involved in the auto maker's decision to focus solely on higher-priced vehicles?

Forgive if I'm not catching what you're saying; it's been a hectic morning already.

"Put your money in the bank, not in the tank. Buy a Datsun!"

B-1 83 said:

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I've owned three Nissans (Rogue SL, Rogue SL, Murano Platinum) and have been delighted with all three. Oil, wipers, tires, battery…….has been it on all of them.

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I somehow became a Nissan/Infiniti guy in the 90's. Started with a Sentra, then an Altima, then we bought two Infinitis. After 2000 we switched to other brands until I recently bought a '23 Titan. That's the last reliable full sized truck after the Tundras turned to crap and now they stopped making it.

On an unrelated note, I have a 2015 Navigator thats never given me any trouble. That era Navigator seems to be a sweet spot for reliability. I'm scared to get a new one because I feel like all the added tech will give me problems.

No Spin Ag said:

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Ag_of_08 said:

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100% agree on that one. I think there big makers are capable of producing vehicles that meet the value/quality break point, but the .government has got to get out of it.

I hate that a few states like California are going to be the biggest hurdle to that, but...

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The auto companies already had plenty of vehicles that met the value/quality break point. They have chosen to stop making those vehicles because they can make greater profits on higher-priced vehicles.

Where do you see the government being involved in the auto maker's decision to focus solely on higher-priced vehicles?

Forgive if I'm not catching what you're saying; it's been a hectic morning already.

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There are multiple things that are true here. The auto companies have certainly focused on higher margin vehicles (SUVs/trucks), but the government has also manipulated the market with forced inclusion of unnecessary features and fuel efficiency standards due to political virtue signaling.

And all of the technology adds don't help either. Cars today are spaceships with the tech they have now.

Car companies have openly made decisions to kill entire lines of vehicles and engines due to the latter in order to hit CAFE standards here and standards in Europe.

All of this together results in price increases.

I think we can fairly blame the government for unrealistic CAFE standards that are designed to force us into EVs eventually. As an interim step, it has pushed us towards ever more complicated vehicles with either hybrid or turbo charged smaller displacement engines. These are less reliable than the simpler 6 and 8 cylinder, naturally aspirated engines they replace. Then add in idiotic EVs and the billions of dollars automakers are losing on them. How are they going to recoup those losses and stay out of bankruptcy? By focusing on high profit margin ICE trucks and SUVs. Half ton trucks that are $80-$100k offset stupid money losers like the electric "Mustang". Unfortunately, there is a limited number of people who can afford them, and even fewer who will voluntarily pay those inflated prices.

Buck Turgidson said:

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B-1 83 said:

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I've owned three Nissans (Rogue SL, Rogue SL, Murano Platinum) and have been delighted with all three. Oil, wipers, tires, battery…….has been it on all of them.

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I somehow became a Nissan/Infiniti guy in the 90's. Started with a Sentra, then an Altima, then we bought two Infinitis. After 2000 we switched to other brands until I recently bought a '23 Titan. That's the last reliable full sized truck after the Tundras turned to crap and now they stopped making it.

On an unrelated note, I have a 2015 Navigator thats never given me any trouble. That era Navigator seems to be a sweet spot for reliability. I'm scared to get a new one because I feel like all the added tech will give me problems.

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I think the elephant in the room, and the no one wants to admit, is that reliability is no longer seen as a feature to the vast majority of American car buyers. And to a degree I'm guilty of this. I don't keep any vehicle more than 3 years or 50,000 miles. So I don't particularly care that it can go for 10 years and 200,000 miles.

BTW, if you read the OPs article, it says Nissan may sell a stake to Honda. That would be a great move. I think Honda could help Nissan regain its peer status among the Big 3 Japanese car makers.

Quote:

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Half ton trucks that are $80-$100k offset stupid money losers like the electric "Mustang". Unfortunately, there is a limited number of people who can afford them, and even fewer who will voluntarily pay those inflated prices.

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These trucks are priced like that because people will pay it. It's that simple. There's plenty of new trucks in the $50k range. I tried to buy a mid size Canyon Denali recently. They didnt want to budge on the $52k msrp. And both trucks were gone two days after they arrived on the lot.

Buck Turgidson said:

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BTW, if you read the OPs article, it says Nissan may sell a stake to Honda. That would be a great move. I think Honda could help Nissan regain its peer status among the Big 3 Japanese car makers.

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I think part of the Japanese makers problem is the rise of Kia/Hyundai as legitimate manufacturers who have in many ways surpassed them in quality and features.

Logos Stick said:

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Not to hijack, but Japan is disappearing. They will have half the population they have now in the year 2100, around 65 million, with about half of that being 65 and older. That is a linear decline over time, about a 6.5% reduction each decade. Many of these Japanese companies, like Nissan, will disappear also. It's a population collapse.

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Japans GDP per capita is also lower than Mississippi, which is the lowest of the 50 states. Saw this stat recently and it surprised me.

agent-maroon said:

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Reliability is the first & foremost consideration on any vehicle I will own. Which has a lot to do with my driving a 14 yo F150 with 222k miles. It's spending more and more time in the shop, but I would rather do that without the monthly payment AND the repair bills.

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You do. But do most consumers? Their buying habits indicate otherwise.

Buck Turgidson said:

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B-1 83 said:

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I've owned three Nissans (Rogue SL, Rogue SL, Murano Platinum) and have been delighted with all three. Oil, wipers, tires, battery…….has been it on all of them.

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I somehow became a Nissan/Infiniti guy in the 90's. Started with a Sentra, then an Altima, then we bought two Infinitis. After 2000 we switched to other brands until I recently bought a '23 Titan. That's the last reliable full sized truck after the Tundras turned to crap and now they stopped making it.

On an unrelated note, I have a 2015 Navigator thats never given me any trouble. That era Navigator seems to be a sweet spot for reliability. I'm scared to get a new one because I feel like all the added tech will give me problems.

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I'm on my second Titan, a 2019. Even though I don't need to, I'm seriously considering trading it on a '24 Titan just to guarantee I have a good truck for the next decade.

One of the reasons their birth rate has fallen. Japan, Korea and China have horrific workplace cultures even outside so called Black companies. The leadership in all three countries are examining some pretty wild ideas to fix it. They're mild now but it's escalating and their pop culture is repleate with examples of this.

maverick2076 said:

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Buck Turgidson said:

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B-1 83 said:

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I've owned three Nissans (Rogue SL, Rogue SL, Murano Platinum) and have been delighted with all three. Oil, wipers, tires, battery…….has been it on all of them.

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I somehow became a Nissan/Infiniti guy in the 90's. Started with a Sentra, then an Altima, then we bought two Infinitis. After 2000 we switched to other brands until I recently bought a '23 Titan. That's the last reliable full sized truck after the Tundras turned to crap and now they stopped making it.

On an unrelated note, I have a 2015 Navigator thats never given me any trouble. That era Navigator seems to be a sweet spot for reliability. I'm scared to get a new one because I feel like all the added tech will give me problems.

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I'm on my second Titan, a 2019. Even though I don't need to, I'm seriously considering trading it on a '24 Titan just to guarantee I have a good truck for the next decade.

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Got a 2019 Titan as well - no complaints for the 4 years I've had it.

You're probably right. Many of them are purchasing EV's as well, so who can really identify what they're really thinking when it defies all logical reasoning

BBRex said:

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My Grand Cherokee had to get a new transmission at 48,000 miles. Sounds like I might as well get a Defender (if the Scout falls through). Land Rover is getting to be as reliable as anything else.

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Huh???

I suspect my current car will last me a long time at this rate.

It's a 2015 Ford Taurus that bought used in January of 2017 with approximately 22,000 miles on it. It now has something like 65,000 to 70,000 miles on it since I don't drive much.

In most months, my number one expense on it is insurance.