And it doesn't even say it these are American or European "officials".

ABATTBQ11 said:

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Quote:

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So there is question as to which Joe Biden cabinet/officials are suggesting he give Ukraine 'back' 'their nukes.' I think your obfuscation about the NYT reporting with greater quotes only reinforces this trial balloon.

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Please, highlight where it says Joe Biden, or even Biden cabinet/officials, are considering this as you continue to say. I'll hang up and listen.

Quote:

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Do you categorically oppose giving Zelensky nukes before Jan 20, or after? Just curious.

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No.

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Excellent to hear you confirm. I don't think the illustrious nyt would report on the basis of functional secretaries. You're welcome to keep stomping your feet that you think otherwise.

Again, please, highlight where it says Joe Biden, or even Biden cabinet/officials, are considering this as you continue to say.

It's really easy.

I mean you keep saying, "The NYT is reporting..." so it should be exceedingly simple to simply copy and paste what they said, right? Hell, I even have you a link to the article in question. All you have to do is copy and paste where they said what you say they did.

Unless, of course, they didn't, and you can't...

U.S. propoganda, I guess.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews.go.com/amp/Politics/biden-warns-putin-joking-nuclear-weapons/story%3fid=91157281

He can't. Obfuscation and lying about headlines that don't match the content are his bread and butter.

Red Fishing Ag93 said:

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U.S. propoganda, I guess.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews.go.com/amp/Politics/biden-warns-putin-joking-nuclear-weapons/story%3fid=91157281

---

We resorting to 2 year old articles now?

It's two years old. So what. Was it true or not?

Is there a nuke threat or not? Or is it US propoganda?

Honestly couldn't care less of your answers.

J. Walter Weatherman said:

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PlaneCrashGuy said:

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You seemed confident the reports from sources in his staff are inaccurate. I'm asking why. What leadership has Biden shown you that we shouldn't believe the reports coming out?

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I have no idea if they are accurate or not. The point was the article didn't say what nortex claimed it said.

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"Several officials even suggested that Mr. Biden could return nuclear weapons to Ukraine that were taken from it after the fall of the Soviet Union."

I was asking what makes you so confident this statement is untrue? This is directly from the article.

Red Fishing Ag93 said:

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It's two years old. So what. Was it true or not?

Is there a nuke threat or not?

Honestly couldn't care less of your answers.

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Apparently it wasn't since we crossed multiple red lines of theirs and all they did was cower in the corner.

PlaneCrashGuy said:

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J. Walter Weatherman said:

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PlaneCrashGuy said:

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You seemed confident the reports from sources in his staff are inaccurate. I'm asking why. What leadership has Biden shown you that we shouldn't believe the reports coming out?

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I have no idea if they are accurate or not. The point was the article didn't say what nortex claimed it said.

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"Several officials even suggested that Mr. Biden could return nuclear weapons to Ukraine that were taken from it after the fall of the Soviet Union."

I was asking what makes you so confident this statement is untrue? This is directly from the article.

---

Nortex claimed it was Biden officials. The article never claimed it was Biden officials, or even American officials after it was discussed at a joint Europe / US meeting.

You McCarthy Cold War fear mongering ******s probably love this. Instigate a war that should have not happened if US didn't overthrow Ukraine govt in the first place. But I'm sure most of you are military industry contractors or have stocks. Otherwise you wouldn't want to risk a nuclear war. Or you're just dumb and watch way too much Fox News

Teslag said:

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PlaneCrashGuy said:

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J. Walter Weatherman said:

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PlaneCrashGuy said:

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You seemed confident the reports from sources in his staff are inaccurate. I'm asking why. What leadership has Biden shown you that we shouldn't believe the reports coming out?

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I have no idea if they are accurate or not. The point was the article didn't say what nortex claimed it said.

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"Several officials even suggested that Mr. Biden could return nuclear weapons to Ukraine that were taken from it after the fall of the Soviet Union."

I was asking what makes you so confident this statement is untrue? This is directly from the article.

---

Nortex claimed it was Biden officials. The article never claimed it was Biden officials, or even American officials after it was discussed at a joint Europe / US meeting.

---

Why are you so confident it wasn't Biden officials? Said differently, what has Biden done to deserve the benefit of the doubt?

I see a corrupts potus who ****s himself, clearly you and Weatherman see something else if you're tending goal for him like this. What do you see in Biden that I don't?

TBoneAg said:

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You McCarthy Cold War fear mongering ******s probably love this. Instigate a war that should have not happened if US didn't overthrow Ukraine govt in the first place. But I'm sure most of you are military industry contractors or have stocks. Otherwise you wouldn't want to risk a nuclear war. Or you're just dumb and watch way too much Fox News

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Even Putin isn't crazy enough to start a nuclear war. We would destroy Russia and he would lose everything.

Red Fishing Ag93 said:

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It's two years old. So what. Was it true or not?

Is there a nuke threat or not? Or is it US propoganda?

Honestly couldn't care less of your answers.

---

Considering we're talking about current (and specific) events and not two years ago, the recency is kind of relevant. Was it true that the Russians were going to put nukes in Cuba? Yeah. Is it true that the Russians are trying to put mine on Cuba? No.

No, there isn't a nuke threat. At least not one I believe in.

Quote:

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No, there isn't a nuke threat. At least not one I believe in.

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Which is presumably why you don't care if Biden gives Zelensky nukes or not. Many of us do not share your risk calculus. I think that's the real disconnect in this discussion.

PlaneCrashGuy said:

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Teslag said:

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PlaneCrashGuy said:

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J. Walter Weatherman said:

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PlaneCrashGuy said:

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You seemed confident the reports from sources in his staff are inaccurate. I'm asking why. What leadership has Biden shown you that we shouldn't believe the reports coming out?

---

I have no idea if they are accurate or not. The point was the article didn't say what nortex claimed it said.

---

"Several officials even suggested that Mr. Biden could return nuclear weapons to Ukraine that were taken from it after the fall of the Soviet Union."

I was asking what makes you so confident this statement is untrue? This is directly from the article.

---

Nortex claimed it was Biden officials. The article never claimed it was Biden officials, or even American officials after it was discussed at a joint Europe / US meeting.

---

Why are you so confident it wasn't Biden officials? Said differently, what has Biden done to deserve the benefit of the doubt?

I see a corrupts potus who ****s himself, clearly you and Weatherman see something else if you're tending goal for him like this. What do you see in Biden that I don't?

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No one is saying it wasn't, just that there is no definitive certainty it was, and without that definitive certainty, people like you and nortex are incorrect in the continued assertion that it was. Surely even you can recognize the fallacy of, "An official said it, so it must be a Biden official that said it."

nortex97 said:

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Quote:

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No, there isn't a nuke threat. At least not one I believe in.

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Which is presumably why you don't care if Biden gives Zelensky nukes or not. Many of us do not share your risk calculus. I think that's the real disconnect in this discussion.

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ABATTBQ11 said:

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Red Fishing Ag93 said:

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It's two years old. So what. Was it true or not?

Is there a nuke threat or not? Or is it US propoganda?

Honestly couldn't care less of your answers.

---

Considering we're taking about current (and specific) events and not two years ago, the recency is kind of relevant. Was it true that the Russians were going to put nukes in Cuba? Yeah. Is it true that the Russians are trying to put mine on Cuba? No.

No, there isn't a nuke threat. At least not one I believe in.

---

Everybody has their boiling point.

We have poked, and poked, and poked, and are poking once again.

If we're discussing a threat of WWIII which I believe the OP is concerned about, like many here, then they are all relevant.

PlaneCrashGuy said:

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Teslag said:

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PlaneCrashGuy said:

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J. Walter Weatherman said:

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PlaneCrashGuy said:

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You seemed confident the reports from sources in his staff are inaccurate. I'm asking why. What leadership has Biden shown you that we shouldn't believe the reports coming out?

---

I have no idea if they are accurate or not. The point was the article didn't say what nortex claimed it said.

---

"Several officials even suggested that Mr. Biden could return nuclear weapons to Ukraine that were taken from it after the fall of the Soviet Union."

I was asking what makes you so confident this statement is untrue? This is directly from the article.

---

Nortex claimed it was Biden officials. The article never claimed it was Biden officials, or even American officials after it was discussed at a joint Europe / US meeting.

---

Why are you so confident it wasn't Biden officials? Said differently, what has Biden done to deserve the benefit of the doubt?

I see a corrupts potus who ****s himself, clearly you and Weatherman see something else if you're tending goal for him like this. What do you see in Biden that I don't?

---

Where did I say it wasn't Biden officials?

Red Fishing Ag93 said:

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ABATTBQ11 said:

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Red Fishing Ag93 said:

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It's two years old. So what. Was it true or not?

Is there a nuke threat or not? Or is it US propoganda?

Honestly couldn't care less of your answers.

---

Considering we're taking about current (and specific) events and not two years ago, the recency is kind of relevant. Was it true that the Russians were going to put nukes in Cuba? Yeah. Is it true that the Russians are trying to put mine on Cuba? No.

No, there isn't a nuke threat. At least not one I believe in.

---

Everybody has their boiling point.

We have poked, and poked, and poked, and are poking once again.

If we're discussing a threat of WWIII which I believe the OP is concerned about, like many here, then they are all relevant.

---

Considering much of the latest part of this thread is full of crap, I disagree.

And there's been many conflicts and proxy wars since the beginning of the Cold War. Still no nuclear exchange. No WWIII. If Korea, Vietnam, the Cuban missile crisis, and Afghanistan didn't do it, pretty sure this won't either.

U.S. got to DEFCON 2 during the Cuban Missile Crisis. DEFCON 1 means the nuclear missiles are flying.

U.S. is still at DEFCON 3 right now and has been since Jan. 2023 due to the Russia/Ukraine conflict.

The financial markets finished up during this week. There doesn't seem to yet be any underlying concern about nuclear war in the markets. Now, if the U.S. actually went to DEFCON 2 then look out. Your 401(k) and that Bitcoin thing (for all those crypto enthusiasts) would likely evaporate quick if that happened.

Russia notified the U.S. shortly before launching that missile, to make sure no misunderstanding.

What is going on right now is still a measured game of Chicken as both sides are trying to maximize their positions before probable 'peace' negotiations in the near future with a U.S. administration change.

Now, could either or both sides grossly miscalculate responses and this thing go unexpectedly sideways? Sure. It is probably a very small risk but we are kidding ourselves if thinking zero risk. Though that doesn't mean either the U.S. just meekly backs down whenever Putin makes a threat.

College football games still on for tomorrow. BTHO Auburn!

Red Fishing Ag93 said:

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ABATTBQ11 said:

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Red Fishing Ag93 said:

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It's two years old. So what. Was it true or not?

Is there a nuke threat or not? Or is it US propoganda?

Honestly couldn't care less of your answers.

---

Considering we're taking about current (and specific) events and not two years ago, the recency is kind of relevant. Was it true that the Russians were going to put nukes in Cuba? Yeah. Is it true that the Russians are trying to put mine on Cuba? No.

No, there isn't a nuke threat. At least not one I believe in.

---

Everybody has their boiling point.

We have poked, and poked, and poked, and are poking once again.

If we're discussing a threat of WWIII which I believe the OP is concerned about, like many here, then they are all relevant.

---

Have considered for a moment that Putin isn't a suicidal maniac?

We have poked, and poked, and poked, and are poking once again.

As has Russia been poking the U.S. and the West. There is His story, Her story, and then the Truth. Let's not pretend that Russia is blameless and innocent in all this.

ABATTBQ11 said:

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nortex97 said:

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Quote:

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No, there isn't a nuke threat. At least not one I believe in.

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Which is presumably why you don't care if Biden gives Zelensky nukes or not. Many of us do not share your risk calculus. I think that's the real disconnect in this discussion.

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This one from Russian Social Media.

The inscription reads

"After me, Only Silence" pic.twitter.com/Hq5n6JSDx3

— Chay Bowes (@BowesChay) November 21, 2024

BREAKING: Russia's Intercontinental Ballistic Missile Attack Against Ukraine Is The First Time In History An ICBM Was Used In War.
The ICBM Had Multiple Independently Targetable Reentry Vehicles (MIRV) Warheads Struck Ukraine's City Of Dnipro. pic.twitter.com/gXcmxyfxS4

— John Basham (@JohnBasham) November 21, 2024

It's not just words. This is a demonstrated capability.

🛑🛑 Oreshnik Intermediate- Range Ballistic Missile: What do we know about Russia’s ‘Hazel’ IRBM?

Unprecedented Speed: Hypersonic missiles boast speeds of up to 12,250 km/h, capable of reaching targets from Russia to the UK in 19 minutes, Belgium in 14, pic.twitter.com/vCUFFYUp7e

— Naren Mukherjee (@NMukherjee6) November 22, 2024

‘It was a very convincing demonstration’ – Russian MP reacts to ‘Hazel’ missile retaliatory strikes on Ukraine pic.twitter.com/ntu1eOJmhW

— RT (@RT_com) November 22, 2024

"Let's play a game."

If Russia had a free press, I imagine their population would be less impressed about their missile technology given the estimated 120,000 - 180,000 Russia soldiers who have come home in body bags over the past 2 1/2 years. Though I imagine the 'water cooler' conversations over there a lot of folks have a pretty good sense of the high cost.

At the end of the day, it is the poor families of all those people, as well as the huge losses on the Ukraine side, that will have paid the ultimate price for global political fighting over control and influence of some natural gas & oil reserves and wheat fields in Ukraine.

U.S. lost a little less than 60K dead in Vietnam in about 10 years and that was considered a horrible debacle and quagmire at the time. Russia has doubled possibly even tripled that loss in a fourth of the time. There are going to be no true 'winners' here, however this plays out.

I should've been more specific. I'm still waiting for you highlight where it says Joe Biden, or even Biden cabinet/officials, are considering this as you continue to say. All you have to do is copy and paste where they said what you say they did. You pretty much quadrupled down on it, so one would think you'd be more than happy to.

ABATTBQ11 said:

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I should've been more specific. I'm still waiting for you highlight where it says Joe Biden, or even Biden cabinet/officials, are considering this as you continue to say. All you have to do is copy and paste where they said what you say they did. You pretty much quadrupled down on it, so one would think you'd be more than happy to.

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You won't get this. You'll get his typical hand wave and then a series of 4 or 5 tweets in a row completely unrelated to the question in an attempt to deflect and move the conversation in another direction, all so his egg on the face is wiped away and buried.

In fact, it appears he's already done that.

These comparisons are logical on a surface level imho but less so once one looks at it more seriously. Vietnam was a 'domino-theory' war, ultimately mismanaged by our state department/pentagon/Democrat "friends.'' So, yeah. Parallels to the justifications here and idiocy in execution. Joe and Mika couldn't be reached for comment.

Crimea/Sevastopol and the cultural heartland of especially Eastern "Ukraine" are much more significant to Russians vs. Saigon for Americans (or their oligarchy, specifically, who also are not ignorant of the natural resources involved, of course). Further, the Russian ruling class does not care one iota about the serfs sacrificed any more than the Ukrainian ones do (vs. Americans in Vietnam).

Russia knows they won't intimidate the decision makers. They warned us about their little stunt precisely because they don't want things to go sideways. Their intended audience is public opinion and they're counting on their apologists in the West to push their message of brinksmanship. First ever use of an ICBM! WGAS. They've fired hundreds/thousands of nuclear capable missiles into Ukraine.

And then it turns out it's not even an ICBM. And you're right about the intended target, this thread is proof it worked.

ABATTBQ11 said:

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PlaneCrashGuy said:

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Teslag said:

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PlaneCrashGuy said:

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J. Walter Weatherman said:

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PlaneCrashGuy said:

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You seemed confident the reports from sources in his staff are inaccurate. I'm asking why. What leadership has Biden shown you that we shouldn't believe the reports coming out?

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I have no idea if they are accurate or not. The point was the article didn't say what nortex claimed it said.

---

"Several officials even suggested that Mr. Biden could return nuclear weapons to Ukraine that were taken from it after the fall of the Soviet Union."

I was asking what makes you so confident this statement is untrue? This is directly from the article.

---

Nortex claimed it was Biden officials. The article never claimed it was Biden officials, or even American officials after it was discussed at a joint Europe / US meeting.

---

Why are you so confident it wasn't Biden officials? Said differently, what has Biden done to deserve the benefit of the doubt?

I see a corrupts potus who ****s himself, clearly you and Weatherman see something else if you're tending goal for him like this. What do you see in Biden that I don't?

---

No one is saying it wasn't, just that there is no definitive certainty it was, and without that definitive certainty, people like you and nortex are incorrect in the continued assertion that it was. Surely even you can recognize the fallacy of, "An official said it, so it must be a Biden official that said it."

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I never said it was definitive but I think it's probably true. If you disagree, I'd love to know what you see in Biden to give him the benefit of the doubt. But it sounds like you're just trying to have a meta argument, which is typical but bores me.

Teslag said:

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PlaneCrashGuy said:

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Teslag said:

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PlaneCrashGuy said:

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J. Walter Weatherman said:

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PlaneCrashGuy said:

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You seemed confident the reports from sources in his staff are inaccurate. I'm asking why. What leadership has Biden shown you that we shouldn't believe the reports coming out?

---

I have no idea if they are accurate or not. The point was the article didn't say what nortex claimed it said.

---

"Several officials even suggested that Mr. Biden could return nuclear weapons to Ukraine that were taken from it after the fall of the Soviet Union."

I was asking what makes you so confident this statement is untrue? This is directly from the article.

---

Nortex claimed it was Biden officials. The article never claimed it was Biden officials, or even American officials after it was discussed at a joint Europe / US meeting.

---

Why are you so confident it wasn't Biden officials? Said differently, what has Biden done to deserve the benefit of the doubt?

I see a corrupts potus who ****s himself, clearly you and Weatherman see something else if you're tending goal for him like this. What do you see in Biden that I don't?

---

Where did I say it wasn't Biden officials?

---

That was the logical inference to be made when you spent your entire Friday afternoon arguing against someone who said it was

Those digging in behind Ukraine and supporting this war are a carbon copy of those who supported the "war on terrorism" in Iraq and Afghanistan.

History will judge this loss of life and destruction as a major blunder that could have been avoided at the onset of the invasion in 2022. Ironically, Putin will now end up with a better deal when Zelensky "surrenders".

Only a simpleton would view this conflict as a wider threat to freedom or the US empire. The real threat is putting our financial solvency in the hands of our enemies with never ending crisis & war spending.

Quote:

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And then it turns out it's not even an ICBM.

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We've reached peak soft-pedaling.

PlaneCrashGuy said:

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Teslag said:

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PlaneCrashGuy said:

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Teslag said:

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PlaneCrashGuy said:

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J. Walter Weatherman said:

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PlaneCrashGuy said:

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You seemed confident the reports from sources in his staff are inaccurate. I'm asking why. What leadership has Biden shown you that we shouldn't believe the reports coming out?

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I have no idea if they are accurate or not. The point was the article didn't say what nortex claimed it said.

---

"Several officials even suggested that Mr. Biden could return nuclear weapons to Ukraine that were taken from it after the fall of the Soviet Union."

I was asking what makes you so confident this statement is untrue? This is directly from the article.

---

Nortex claimed it was Biden officials. The article never claimed it was Biden officials, or even American officials after it was discussed at a joint Europe / US meeting.

---

Why are you so confident it wasn't Biden officials? Said differently, what has Biden done to deserve the benefit of the doubt?

I see a corrupts potus who ****s himself, clearly you and Weatherman see something else if you're tending goal for him like this. What do you see in Biden that I don't?

---

Where did I say it wasn't Biden officials?

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That was the logical inference to be made when you spent your entire Friday afternoon arguing against someone who said it was

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Nope. I said he was claiming something that wasn't in the article. Which is exactly what he did.