Quote:

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...if the left is willing to unleash disease X on the population and sacrifice many to win elections and impose their socialist will...... why would unleashing nuclear war to preserve their power, at the cost of millions, not be on the table?

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The stone cold reality.

And so disturbing to think about that we pretend that's not the case.

Quote:

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Putin is an oligarch and corrupt. But he has shown incredible restraint given the US unofficial involvement in this conflict.

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What is Putin going to do about it? He's not sacrificing himself with nuclear war for Ukraine.

newbie11 said:

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I'm sure his handlers are simply trying to escalate things so trump will have a harder time ending the war. If I were trump, I'd simply blame Biden and the dems the day I take office. Leave it at that.

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It would be factual to blame Biden for the continuation of the Zelensky regime's unwinnable War.

The reality is that Russia will never accept giving the Donbas/Crimea with large majority Russian populations back to a Ukrainian regime that essentially waged a genocide against the Russian minority in the east prior to 2021.

The installment of the Kiev regime by the west as a result of the Merkel-Cameron-Obama backed coup in 2014 is the root of the issue.

Free and Fair elections in the non-Russian areas of the Ukraine would result in Zelensky's party being swept out of office in favor of a peace treaty.... even if that meant the loss of territory in the East. That's why Zelensky has cancelled TWO elections so far.... at the urging of Victoria Nuland, Alexandra Chalupa, and other nefarious deep staters in the US.

Teslag said:

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Quote:

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Putin is an oligarch and corrupt. But he has shown incredible restraint given the US unofficial involvement in this conflict.

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What is Putin going to do about it? He's not sacrificing himself with nuclear war for Ukraine.

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If the survival of the Russian state itself is threatened....... he will use nukes. He has been clear.

It's not an unusual position -- same position the US, Israel, and France have with using nukes. If the very existence of the state is threatened by outside military forces.... they will be used.

Stat Monitor Repairman said:

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Quote:

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...if the left is willing to unleash disease X on the population and sacrifice many to win elections and impose their socialist will...... why would unleashing nuclear war to preserve their power, at the cost of millions, not be on the table?

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The stone cold reality.

And so disturbing to think about that we pretend that's not the case.

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same logic which leftists will ignore no matter how many times you say it:

...if the Iranian dictators are willing to unleash Hamas and Hizbullah on the population and sacrifice many to win elections and impose their Islamic will...... why would unleashing nuclear war to preserve their power, at the cost of millions, not be on the table?

Teslag said:

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Quote:

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Putin is an oligarch and corrupt. But he has shown incredible restraint given the US unofficial involvement in this conflict.

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What is Putin going to do about it? He's not sacrificing himself with nuclear war for Ukraine.

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If that's the case, why limit where Ukriane can strike inside Russia? What is Putin going to do about it?

TheEternalOptimist said:

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newbie11 said:

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I'm sure his handlers are simply trying to escalate things so trump will have a harder time ending the war. If I were trump, I'd simply blame Biden and the dems the day I take office. Leave it at that.

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It would be factual to blame Biden for the continuation of the Zelensky regime's unwinnable War.

The reality is that Russia will never accept giving the Donbas/Crimea with large majority Russian populations back to a Ukrainian regime that essentially waged a genocide against the Russian minority in the east prior to 2021.

The installment of the Kiev regime by the west as a result of the Merkel-Cameron-Obama backed coup in 2014 is the root of the issue.

Free and Fair elections in the non-Russian areas of the Ukraine would result in Zelensky's party being swept out of office in favor of a peace treaty.... even if that meant the loss of territory in the East. That's why Zelensky has cancelled TWO elections so far.... at the urging of Victoria Nuland, Alexandra Chalupa, and other nefarious deep staters in the US.

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The Russian fed election talking point is so overused. For the hundredth time - Zelenskyy is not legally allowed to hold elections while their country is under martial law. They are under martial law because Putin invaded. Once Putin gives up, Zelenskyy likely will be reelected easily if he decides to run since he's the main reason Ukraine still exists.

This is a major shift strategy that is a clear escalation. Trump is the President
-elect and has promised to end this war. This is an unacceptable change from our industrial military complex.

TheEternalOptimist said:

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Teslag said:

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Quote:

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Putin is an oligarch and corrupt. But he has shown incredible restraint given the US unofficial involvement in this conflict.

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What is Putin going to do about it? He's not sacrificing himself with nuclear war for Ukraine.

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If the survival of the Russian state itself is threatened....... he will use nukes. He has been clear.

It's not an unusual position -- same position the US, Israel, and France have with using nukes. If the very existence of the state is threatened by outside military forces.... they will be used.

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If Putin uses nukes then the world ends and Russia ends with it.

Highway 6 runs both ways. NATO has nukes too. So….it is very unlikely he uses them. Russia is a rational actor.

Pumpkinhead said:

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TheEternalOptimist said:

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Teslag said:

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Quote:

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Putin is an oligarch and corrupt. But he has shown incredible restraint given the US unofficial involvement in this conflict.

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What is Putin going to do about it? He's not sacrificing himself with nuclear war for Ukraine.

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If the survival of the Russian state itself is threatened....... he will use nukes. He has been clear.

It's not an unusual position -- same position the US, Israel, and France have with using nukes. If the very existence of the state is threatened by outside military forces.... they will be used.

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If Putin uses nukes then the world ends and Russia ends with it.

Highway 6 runs both ways. NATO has nukes too. So….it is very unlikely he uses them. Russia is a rational actor.

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Not necessarily. There are ways to employ nuclear weapons that doesn't lead to all out nuclear war. In fact there are weapons designed specifically for this kind of use. One of the major reasons we pulled out of the INF treaty after the Russians violated the treaty multiple times.

Pumpkinhead said:

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TheEternalOptimist said:

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Teslag said:

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Quote:

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Putin is an oligarch and corrupt. But he has shown incredible restraint given the US unofficial involvement in this conflict.

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What is Putin going to do about it? He's not sacrificing himself with nuclear war for Ukraine.

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If the survival of the Russian state itself is threatened....... he will use nukes. He has been clear.

It's not an unusual position -- same position the US, Israel, and France have with using nukes. If the very existence of the state is threatened by outside military forces.... they will be used.

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If Putin uses nukes then the world ends and Russia ends with it.

Highway 6 runs both ways. NATO has nukes too. So….it is very unlikely he uses them. Russia is a rational actor.

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This is NOT worth the risk right now.

Quote:

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If the survival of the Russian state itself is threatened....... he will use nukes. He has been clear.

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The survival of the Russian state doesn't hinge on losing a few assets behind the lines directly contributing to the war effort in Ukraine. Russia would agree to a ceasefire deal long before he sacrificed himself and millions of Russians in nuclear war.

Putin may be a bully and dictator but he's not a suicidal maniac.

TheEternalOptimist said:

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Teslag said:

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Quote:

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Putin is an oligarch and corrupt. But he has shown incredible restraint given the US unofficial involvement in this conflict.

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What is Putin going to do about it? He's not sacrificing himself with nuclear war for Ukraine.

---

If the survival of the Russian state itself is threatened....... he will use nukes. He has been clear.

It's not an unusual position -- same position the US, Israel, and France have with using nukes. If the very existence of the state is threatened by outside military forces.... they will be used.

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The only way the russian state's survival will be threatened is if in touches a nato country.

He might ultimately lose personally, though I doubt it.

At first it was himars that was the red line of escalation to not cross
Then tanks
Then f16s
Then an actual offensive into Russia proper with us equipment in hand


Atacms will surely cause putin/Russia to risk it's livelihood.

Russia ain't launching a nuke.

LMCane said:

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MouthBQ98 said:

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Well, to be fair, Russia has now repeatedly used Iranian and North Korean missiles to strike Ukrainian cities and civilian infrastructure so Russia is apparently just fine with that being part of the rules of this war. It seems fair that Ukraine be allowed to retaliate in kind with its own foreign obtained long range weapons. I'm not sure why we have restrained them for months after Russia escalated to doing this.

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because it just continues to escalate the USA role in smashing Russia

what happens when Russia decides to ratchet up their measures against the USA in retaliation while Biden is still "potus" the next 7 weeks?!

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They going to spray gas on a reaper again? Cut in front of an f15?

Oh noes.

stumbled upon Ron Paul's Liberty Report and get his response on DOGE and stumbled upon this talk. He seems pretty concerned with Biden and his mental state with foreign affairs matters. holy cow.

Ron Paul is right, good convo. It's alarming how often people on this board hang their hat on this idea that Putin is bluffing on his threats. That he has more to lose in a nuke fallout, than we do.

We just had a Chinese spy balloon fly clear across the continental US. A floating balloon. We didn't stop that. No consequences for China. Millions died due to a Chinese manufactured virus, no retaliatory action whatsoever. We still don't even know how it was released nor are we demanding answers.

Trump has shown how much he hates war, and also his ability to understand the perspective of his enemies to end conflict. Others in gov and on this board have a 6th grade approach of "we are good, they are bad, and we can do whatever we want bc we are more powerful." It's careless and dangerous.

I still haven't heard anyone articulate why we should fund/weaponize Ukraine? How do the benefits outweigh the costs/risks?

I'm not a fan of Ron Paul in general, but the point made in this clip is a legitimate worry. These weapons can be used only by direct US involvement in firing them.

As I have seen mentioned in other articles, military folks do not seem to think using these weapons will really affect the outcome of the war, and they risk provoking Putin to retaliate.

NYT has referenced people who think that this retaliation could be asymmetric (not nuclear)--something akin to the plot recently discovered to plant bombs on planes in Europe and eventually in the US.

Making people afraid to fly would be devastating to the global economy.

If Putin blew up a few planes (without admitting he did, of course) we would have to retaliate, and suddenly we are on the fast track to something I do not want us involved in.

I hope that Putin will hold off on reacting to this stupid decision until Trump takes charge and, I hope, changes this policy.

There's basically no risk for us and we are doing it all for basically pennies.

TheEternalOptimist said:

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Nuclear War would stop the transition of power. Something to think about.....

...if the left is willing to unleash disease X on the population and sacrifice many to win elections and impose their socialist will...... why would unleashing nuclear war to preserve their power, at the cost of millions, not be on the table?

Putin is an oligarch and corrupt. But he has shown incredible restraint given the US unofficial involvement in this conflict.

Imagine if the Russians were aiding the Taliban directly in their fight with the US immediately post 9/11. We would not have put up with it.

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Some of you give our political class far, far too much credit.

Most of these individuals are functionally (and sometimes literally) complete morons, professional useless people with little to no real world experience. And you guys treat them like brilliant supervillains, granting a degree of competency and cunning that is both completely undeserved and comically absurd.

This war which is nearly 10 years old (Russia taking Crimea and some territory in 2014) at its core seems to be about natural resources.

Ukraine means access to some large basins of oil and natural gas. Our Western European allies want access to it. Russia wants it. Russia has been land grabbing to get it.

Ukraine is also a major supplier of wheat to the region.

If Ukraine land wasn't valuable real estate nobody would being giving a hoot about it and expending such costs and blood. Neither The EU countries or US or Russia. But it is valuable real estate so here we are.

Teslag said:

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IslanderAg04 said:

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Teslag said:

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When was the last time we unilaterally invaded a sovereign nation in an effort to make them a part of the United States with it also being completely unprovoked?

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How many nations have we destabilized in the idea of "more democracy" while being completely unprovoked?

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It's telling that you can't answer the question directly.

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And niether can you.

If this is an example of the advice given by today's DOD General Staff...more reason for a serious house cleaning.

Putin has signaled his willingness to escalate things further by lowering the threshold for a nuclear response:

https://www.foxnews.com/world/putin-signs-revised-doctrine-lowering-threshold-nuclear-response-russia-attacked

Hoping nothing stupid happens before Jan 20…Trump needs to get both sides to shut this thing down…

Oh no, Russia is saber rattling nukes again. Muse be a Tuesday.

ATACMS claimed to have been employed (an attack in Bryansk, Russia, just north of 'Ukraine'). Again, this is a pretty ineffective weapon nowadays, though.

🤔 Thoughts on Missile Strikes "Deep into Russia"

🔹ATACMS

ATACMS is a high-flying ballistic missile with a fixed trajectory. 200kg warhead; effective range <300km; previously shipped to Ukraine only in the cluster munition variety.

The Russians have shot down far more than… pic.twitter.com/v5BJLcEpV8

— Will Schryver (@imetatronink) November 19, 2024

French/Brits/Italians/Germans haven't changed their positions though.

⚡️🇮🇹Italy refused to allow Kiev to use weapons outside its territory — Le Monde

Foreign Minister Antonio Tajani confirmed the country's position regarding the weapons supplied to Kiev:

"Our position on Ukraine's use of weapons has not changed: they can only be used on Ukrainian…

— SIMPLICIUS Ѱ (@simpatico771) November 18, 2024

Biden laments the war's impact on food prices, unironically:

Apparently, allowing to strike Russia with NATO missiles is supposed to secure global food security and decrease the ever increasing food prices caused by the Russian "aggression", according to the self-propelled grandpa. pic.twitter.com/AqMiDygvlY

— Olga Bazova (@OlgaBazova) November 19, 2024

Those sources are Russia propaganda sources which are just as bad with misinformation as the Western versions. I have listened to both sides of these sources at times and it is very difficult to get a 'true' story of what is going on over there. The best you can guess is the Russians have made some incremental advancements over the past few months aggressively trying to grab as much land as possible before any ceasefire negotiation and both sides have incurred heavy casualties.

They need to decide which narrative they are going with. Long range ATACMS are a threat to Russia and will push them to nuclear war or it's completely ineffective and not a threat at all.

The Ukes just fired one of our long range missiles into Russia…

FireAg said:

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The Ukes just fired one of our long range missiles into Russia…

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How did it do? Should we be proud?

I lack the ethnic hatred 'some' do but see value in checking both sides, consistently.

The pro-war propaganda thread is (or at least was, no clue any longer) filled top to bottom with such from 'western' MSM sources that are often literally arms of intelligence agencies, or the 'blob' as Mike Benz calls it. I find that lack of balance to be a reason to share the other side.

And again, it's really the intelligence agencies that run the executive branch and foreign policy/wars, not "Biden" for instance per the OP question here.

Russ Vought ran OMB under Trump the first time, and hopefully will again. Here’s what he learned about how the deep state actually works.

(0:00) What is the Office of Management and Budget?
(7:57) How Our Intel Agencies Overrule the President
(29:21) What Will the Congressional… pic.twitter.com/vl9au8UwU7

— Tucker Carlson (@TuckerCarlson) November 18, 2024

What benefit is there to the US of this risk free costless war you speak of?

Besides defense contractor profits and politician kick backs, I don't see any.

AggiePetro07 said:

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FireAg said:

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The Ukes just fired one of our long range missiles into Russia…

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How did it do? Should we be proud?

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At least two ATACMS hit an ammo depot. Waiting on first light to see damage but something is on fire at least.