Discontinue College Liberal Arts Programs

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Get Off My Lawn
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2:30p, 11/17/24
Easy compromise: eliminate the federal student loan program. Let the banks offer bankruptcy-eligible loans for high ROI prospects (Institution + STEM degrees + promising individuals) and deny for low ROI prospects at their own peril.

It'll quickly sort itself out.

Independently wealthy families could still pay for liberal arts degrees, and places like Harvard would still have banks lending to arts degrees since companies will still offer lucrative jobs based on the name. So arts wouldn't disappear… they'd just revert to a luxury offering.
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Squadron7
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2:43p, 11/17/24
AG
Make universities be co-signers on any student loan and you will immediately discover how these institutions actually value these degrees they are offering.
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Alta
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2:59p, 11/17/24
AG
Why don't we let people major in and do what they want with their lives? Not everybody wants to maximize their earning potential by doing something they do not find interesting. Lots more to a successful career than simply how much you are paid. Some people much rather be a journalist making $50k than do anything else. A lot of people also don't pay for their college education so they are not saddled with student loan debt.

A liberal arts degree can be a terrific education and lead to great earning potential as well. I have a liberal arts degree and make more money than 99.9% of engineers, business majors, etc.

Let's stop trying to dictate what people should and shouldn't do with their lives. People can make decisions they think are best for them and live with the consequences of those decisions (both good and bad).
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Heineken-Ashi
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In reply to Tom Fox • 3:12p, 11/17/24
Tom Fox said:
Take government money out and let people major in whatever they desire.
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Heineken-Ashi
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In reply to BBRex • 3:12p, 11/17/24
BBRex said:
Federal student loans that allowed universities to wildly increase student tuition and fees have caused way more damage to higher education than liberal arts degrees. Universities started competing for student loan money by creating luxury dorms, high-end rec centers and other amenities that brought in students but did little to improve the quality of education.

Add to that a misguided push in k-12 education to send everyone to college, and you get the mess we have now. Hell, kids now have to pay for community college classes to get licenses that high schools used to prepare students to earn. There is starting to be some correction on that, but not enough.
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doubledog
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In reply to RAB87 • 3:21p, 11/17/24
RAB87 said:
doubledog said:
RAB87 said:
dmart90 said:
Wrong.

Useless degrees like gender studies or insert minority here studies degrees need to go away. Classic liberals arts degrees are still, and will continue to be, valuable.
Valuable in what way? With a career of over 35 years in a variety of industries, I have yet to see demand or value for Classical Liberal Arts.
Law. Shall I continue...
Now there's a credible answer. But why Liberal Arts undergrads for Law? What course work in LA is uniquely beneficial to studies in Law? Is it possible that this is an outdated path and further evidence of a wasteful legacy system?

Government and Criminal Justice (obvious).
Psychology and sociology (law is a people job)
Languages, Logic (philosophy)
Writing, English and History (develops critical thinking)
Shall I continue?
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MemphisAg1
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3:28p, 11/17/24
AG
The federal government should get out of the student loan business.

Student loans should come from universities, and they should be on the hook for loan defaults.

You would see a realignment of priorities. Universities would slash unnecessary overhead that just drives up the cost of tuition because their customers (students) wouldn't want to pay for it, and you would see loan amounts aligned with ability to repay. Engineers and business majors could borrow more, while social workers and journalists could borrow less. That keeps people from being burdened with debt they can't repay.

Reality. It's time we embrace it.
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Independence H-D
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In reply to RAB87 • 4:16p, 11/17/24
Wrong

Me. BA COMM. I've been pretty damn successful and generally an asset for the greater good.

Maybe you could have benefited from some more rounded education.
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No Spin Ag
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In reply to Alta • 4:32p, 11/17/24
Alta said:
Why don't we let people major in and do what they want with their lives? Not everybody wants to maximize their earning potential by doing something they do not find interesting. Lots more to a successful career than simply how much you are paid. Some people much rather be a journalist making $50k than do anything else. A lot of people also don't pay for their college education so they are not saddled with student loan debt.

A liberal arts degree can be a terrific education and lead to great earning potential as well. I have a liberal arts degree and make more money than 99.9% of engineers, business majors, etc.

Let's stop trying to dictate what people should and shouldn't do with their lives. People can make decisions they think are best for them and live with the consequences of those decisions (both good and bad).


Live and let live? The audacity.
There are in fact two things, science and opinion; the former begets knowledge, the later ignorance. Hippocrates
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Rebel Yell
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In reply to No Spin Ag • 4:36p, 11/17/24
AG
No Spin Ag said:
Alta said:
Why don't we let people major in and do what they want with their lives? Not everybody wants to maximize their earning potential by doing something they do not find interesting. Lots more to a successful career than simply how much you are paid. Some people much rather be a journalist making $50k than do anything else. A lot of people also don't pay for their college education so they are not saddled with student loan debt.

A liberal arts degree can be a terrific education and lead to great earning potential as well. I have a liberal arts degree and make more money than 99.9% of engineers, business majors, etc.

Let's stop trying to dictate what people should and shouldn't do with their lives. People can make decisions they think are best for them and live with the consequences of those decisions (both good and bad).


Live and let live? The audacity.
In fairness, this conversation only happens because Biden used American tax dollars to pay off student loans.

By doing so, the American public does have a right to comment on the value of certain degrees.

Again the answer is to get the government out of this business and then "live and let live" is the right answer.
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BBRex
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4:48p, 11/17/24
AG
First, a liberal arts education used to be about learning the building blocks of Western Civilization, often using the Socratic method. The goal was to create students who knew how to problem-solve and find solutions, no matter the problem. They were also expected to carry the torch for Western Civ. The specialization of certain fields has turned a university education into essentially next-level vocational training, but the importance of a liberal arts education still persists in the electives that are still required in those vocational programs.

I think you could make the argument that the decline in the stature of Western Civilization is in part to the lack of interest is liberal arts.
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Burnsey
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In reply to RAB87 • 5:02p, 11/17/24
AG
RAB87 said:
Undergraduate and graduate education in Liberal Arts has become a drain on society. Degrees in things like Journalism, Communication, Political Science, Art History, and Gender/Race Studies have become the landing spot for those who lack the academic ability for useful programs like Engineering, Business, Science, and Healthcare. Most Liberal Arts degrees lead to poor paying jobs in the food service industry. This has resulted in massive student debt that is unsecured by commensurate employment income and unprecedented incompetence in the workplace. Prove me wrong.
I agree that most, if not every DEI degree is generally worthless. But degrees like ECON and POLSC remain relevant. If you want proof, we can meet up and compare 1040s.
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2000AgPhD
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5:04p, 11/17/24
As someone with undergraduate degrees in Biology and History and graduate degrees in Military and Diplomatic History, I have made a pretty good life for my family and I. Never took out a loan and worked my way through.

Having worked in what was the College of Liberal Arts and now in a STEM college, I will tell you that the Liberal Arts students were much better critical thinkers and more intellectually curious than the STEM students I am seeing now, who are pretty one-dimensional - they don't have much of an international perspective and are pretty mercenary in terms of "I want to make a sh*t-ton of money and that's why I am majoring in X".

Having said that, if student loans disappeared tomorrow (and I wish they would), I think you would see a return to traditional LA degrees and the niche and "pet" programs (Gender Studies, Queer Studies, etc.) would disappear pretty fast.

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Central Committee
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5:11p, 11/17/24
AG
Keep economics. Make every student, regardless of degree, take and pass with at least a B micro and macro economics.

And for you socialists and concerned moderates out there, I mean good ol fashion Adam Smith Econ, but Marxist Econ.
We may not always get what we want. We may not always get what we need. Just so we don't get what we deserve.
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policywonk98
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In reply to 2000AgPhD • 5:22p, 11/17/24
AG
To bolster your point. In my line of work I talk with a lot of private equity guys that have been in the investment game for a very long time. They always look for candidates for their investment firms that still have a strong background in liberal arts, especially history degrees or heavy history and arts. They've told me that candidates strictly in finance, economics, business management, and even engineering, are not as good at critical thinking and well rounded thinking. The guys I talk with really like the candidates that got a liberal arts degree and went to B-School or Engineering with some type of artistic hobby or minor. They still like universities requiring liberal arts in all their programs. At least for executive level and investment careers.
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EclipseAg
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5:42p, 11/17/24
AG
OP's argument is so tired.

Universities aren't trade schools. A liberal arts degree can lead to all types of well-paying degrees.
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WdlsAg
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5:50p, 11/17/24
Nobody's talked about the "deal with taxpayers."
Do what you want in private schools. But, state schools should produce workers!

Tax payers (of all social classes) pay state taxes to supplement college education in exchange for a capable and productive workforce that makes the whole economy better.

Many lib arts degrees should not be supported by taxes and be eliminated. Dance, fine arts, psychology, sociology, fill in the blank studies, communication,

Professors shouldn't be able to expand majors/programs just because they can convince students to sign up for it….someone has to be the adult in the room and protect taxpayers.

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BBRex
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5:59p, 11/17/24
AG
Another thought: I bet more than a couple of African American Studies (and Sport Management) programs were started to improve recruiting for athletics.
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13B
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In reply to WdlsAg • 6:06p, 11/17/24
So, you don't think there should be any Psychologists, Psychiatrists, Counselors, Criminal Profilers...

<Torbush> WOW!
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doubledog
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In reply to EclipseAg • 6:07p, 11/17/24
EclipseAg said:
OP's argument is so tired.

Universities aren't trade schools. A liberal arts degree can lead to all types of well-paying degrees.
You are correct. At the university you are not taught the "answer", you are taught how to find the answer. This includes a well traveled trip through the "liberal" arts.
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Houston Lee
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6:32p, 11/17/24
AG
This OP doesn't have a clue. All you need these days is a college degree in SOMETHING. Just get your piece of paper from any college and go get a job. Whatever job you get, the company will have to train you anyway. I got my degree at A&M in Political Science, but spent 25 years in highly technical product sales for oil and gas. I train Engineers!

I have hired dozens of people with Liberal Arts degrees and trained them on products and how to sell them. As long as they had a personality to sell and a technical aptitude, they could do it. It's all about PRODUCT KNOWLEDGE. You don't get that from a college degree. You get it by the company teaching you.

So, WHO CARES what degree you get? Just get one. Then go start your career and find your way…
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Ryan the Temp
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6:38p, 11/17/24
AG
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Jugstore Cowboy
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In reply to RAB87 • 6:42p, 11/17/24
AG
RAB87 said:
The only actual example of Classic LA education value provided so far is "style of writing". SMH. Examples of successful LA grads are cool and all, but there are far more who never get an ROI because the only value they can contribute is flipping my burger.
Nice troll job.

If you're remotely serious, you've lived a sheltered life if you've never worked with anyone who had a Liberal Arts degree in 35 years, or think all they do is flip burgers.
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Ryan the Temp
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In reply to Jugstore Cowboy • 6:45p, 11/17/24
AG
Jugstore Cowboy said:
RAB87 said:
The only actual example of Classic LA education value provided so far is "style of writing". SMH. Examples of successful LA grads are cool and all, but there are far more who never get an ROI because the only value they can contribute is flipping my burger.
Nice troll job.

If you're remotely serious, you've lived a sheltered life if you've never worked with anyone who had a Liberal Arts degree in 35 years, or think all they do is flip burgers.
Yep. Some of us are making six figures with our "useless" liberal arts degrees.
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13B
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In reply to Houston Lee • 6:45p, 11/17/24
Houston Lee said:
This OP doesn't have a clue. All you need these days is a college degree in SOMETHING. Just get your piece of paper from any college and go get a job. Whatever job you get, the company will have to train you anyway. I got my degree at A&M in Political Science, but spent 25 years in highly technical product sales for oil and gas. I train Engineers!

I have hired dozens of people with Liberal Arts degrees and trained them on products and how to sell them. As long as they had a personality to sell and a technical aptitude, they could do it. It's all about PRODUCT KNOWLEDGE. You don't get that from a college degree. You get it by the company teaching you.

So, WHO CARES what degree you get? Just get one. Then go start your career and find your way…
While I agree with your bolded statement wholeheartedly, I have found that in many cases, straight out of college, "any old degree" doesn't always cut it. It depends greatly on what career field you are trying to get into.
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Bondag
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6:46p, 11/17/24
AG
If anything most of these should be an associates degree at a Jr College. You don't need a $45k master's from NYU plus expenses to write stories about professional athletes doing the Trump dance.
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Bondag
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In reply to Houston Lee • 6:49p, 11/17/24
AG
Houston Lee said:
This OP doesn't have a clue. All you need these days is a college degree in SOMETHING. Just get your piece of paper from any college and go get a job. Whatever job you get, the company will have to train you anyway. I got my degree at A&M in Political Science, but spent 25 years in highly technical product sales for oil and gas. I train Engineers!

I have hired dozens of people with Liberal Arts degrees and trained them on products and how to sell them. As long as they had a personality to sell and a technical aptitude, they could do it. It's all about PRODUCT KNOWLEDGE. You don't get that from a college degree. You get it by the company teaching you.

So, WHO CARES what degree you get? Just get one. Then go start your career and find your way…


If I hire an Aggie I have little training to do. The same can't be said for other schools in my degree.

There are also some with that same thought that because they have a degree in something that they know everything. That is common with this generation
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No Spin Ag
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In reply to Rebel Yell • 6:58p, 11/17/24
Rebel Yell said:
No Spin Ag said:
Alta said:
Why don't we let people major in and do what they want with their lives? Not everybody wants to maximize their earning potential by doing something they do not find interesting. Lots more to a successful career than simply how much you are paid. Some people much rather be a journalist making $50k than do anything else. A lot of people also don't pay for their college education so they are not saddled with student loan debt.

A liberal arts degree can be a terrific education and lead to great earning potential as well. I have a liberal arts degree and make more money than 99.9% of engineers, business majors, etc.

Let's stop trying to dictate what people should and shouldn't do with their lives. People can make decisions they think are best for them and live with the consequences of those decisions (both good and bad).


Live and let live? The audacity.
In fairness, this conversation only happens because Biden used American tax dollars to pay off student loans.

By doing so, the American public does have a right to comment on the value of certain degrees.

Again the answer is to get the government out of this business and then "live and let live" is the right answer.


You go know student loans were paid off during previous administration, including Trump's first, right?
There are in fact two things, science and opinion; the former begets knowledge, the later ignorance. Hippocrates
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EclipseAg
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8:27a, 11/18/24
AG
I know people with liberal arts degrees in journalism, communications, history, political science, dance, etc., who have great jobs, make good money and "contribute to society."

I also know people with degrees in subjects like poultry science; recreation, parks and tourism; and sports management who have never worked in those fields -- yet also have great jobs and make good money.

Not everyone can be an engineer or a scientist. But a degree -- even in liberal arts -- is still an important marker of commitment, intelligence and problem-solving ability.

Are there some less-than-useful degrees? In today's world, sure. Yet even those folks can be successful post-graduation. The degree is just a starting point.
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AgCMT
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8:30a, 11/18/24
AG
I make a good living with my liberal arts education speaking for engineers.
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doubledog
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In reply to Houston Lee • 8:35a, 11/18/24
Houston Lee said:
This OP doesn't have a clue. All you need these days is a college degree in SOMETHING. Just get your piece of paper from any college and go get a job. Whatever job you get, the company will have to train you anyway. I got my degree at A&M in Political Science, but spent 25 years in highly technical product sales for oil and gas. I train Engineers!

I have hired dozens of people with Liberal Arts degrees and trained them on products and how to sell them. As long as they had a personality to sell and a technical aptitude, they could do it. It's all about PRODUCT KNOWLEDGE. You don't get that from a college degree. You get it by the company teaching you.

So, WHO CARES what degree you get? Just get one. Then go start your career and find your way…
I agree, here is a secret about college degrees. For a professional position, a college degree will help move you from stack A of applicants to stack B. Once you are in the much smaller stack B then it is up to your resume, application and references to move to the next stack.
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BigRobSA
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In reply to AgCMT • 8:43a, 11/18/24
AgCMT said:
I make a good living with my liberal arts education speaking for engineers.

You only hire mute engineers!?
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Gigem314
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In reply to B-1 83 • 8:52a, 11/18/24
AG
B-1 83 said:
dmart90 said:
Wrong.

Useless degrees like gender studies or insert minority here studies degrees need to go away. Classic liberals arts degrees are still, and will continue to be, valuable.
Sir, this is F16 and you will be labeled a "Concerned Moderate" for such logical poppycock
If you're not being called a CM or right wing Trump lover on F16, you're not having any fun.
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MouthBQ98
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8:55a, 11/18/24
AG
Liberal arts are fine.

Gigantic numbers of mostly useless neo marxist ideological indoctrination pseudoscience degrees like the "studies" might not be worthy of so much public funding given they are all but religious education.

The education degrees need similar reform due to a high degree of academically dubious junk science cross contamination from the "studies" departments over time.
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txwxman
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9:01a, 11/18/24
Engineers I work with tend to be very one-dimensional. They could benefit from a few more classes in liberal arts.
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