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Will the new peace deal that ends the war under Trump be better than the one at the onset of the war that Biden/Boris walked away from?

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Over a million free Ukrainians in the areas I mentioned say yes.

BlueTaze said:

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Ok, it was a peace deal that benefited Russia.

Will the new peace deal that ends the war under Trump be better than the one at the onset of the war that Biden/Boris walked away from?

Again, if the war ends without Ukriane joining NATO I don't see how it could be any better.

How many Ukrianians have died since then? How many billions have been spent? How much infrastructure destruction etc.

That's the point of the thread.

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Depends. If the war ends in a fashion that allows Ukraine to persist as an economically viable country which can determine its own political & economic affiliations, have elections uninfluenced by external entities, and can independently ally with enough other countries to ensure its future security (NATO not necessary), then yes.

If not, then no. But that was the point of the war. Giving in at the beginning ensures that Ukrainians become second class citizens in a nation where Ukrainian resources are mostly controlled by Russians (see Crimea and occupied Ukraine).

To your point, the US could have probably preserved many thousands of lives had they signed a treaty with Japan and maybe ceded Hawaii after Pearl Harbor and likewise arranged a treaty with Germany to stop funding/supporting Europe against Germany. Would America have ultimately been better off? A lot of Americans wouldn't have died and Europe probably would have saved lives by surrendering in short order.

That doesn't mean I'm likening Russia present day to Germany by any stretch, mind you.

We have punished Putin enough with ukraine. Now he knows to step the **** off when it comes inflicting us with psyops and IT infrastructure sabotage. An American regime change is a good opportunity for a reset.

Its time for the US to back off, and let Russia have a safe buffer between themselves and NATO. Ukraine is strategically insignificant to the US and effectively to Europe too.

If the fighting in Ukraine stops, then Russia's proxy war against Israel & the US through Iran is no longer necessary.

World peace is necessary for America to prosper, and for the trump doctrine to be enacted...the trump doctrine being fundamental disruption of the American political class. <- this is the most important thing for America to accomplish.

Stop the war.

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If the fighting in Ukraine stops, then Russia's proxy war against Israel & the US through Iran is no longer necessary.

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Russias proxy war against us via Iran didn't start with Ukraine and it won't end with them either.

Teslag said:

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If the fighting in Ukraine stops, then Russia's proxy war against Israel & the US through Iran is no longer necessary.

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Russias proxy war against us via Iran didn't start with Ukraine and it won't end with them either.

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The goal with Iran isn't victory or a definitive end. It's detente.

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Its time for the US to back off, and let Russia have a safe buffer between themselves and NATO

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NATO already borders Russia and it even increased since this war started

Russia needs a buffer from NATO.

And Latvia and Estonia and Finland and Norway.

And Poland and Lithuania if we include Kaliningrad

That does it. We must give Alaska to Russia in the interest of world peace. Wait… then we have to give them Canada… wait then we have tho give them the USA. Ok. Now Russia no longer borders NATO in this hemisphere. Everyone happy? lol. So dumb.

2014 would like a word...

Rossticus said:

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Stat Monitor Repairman said:

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People who acknowledge provocation aren't justifying or excusing the invasion. They aren't "pro-Putin", they are just aware of the actual events leading to the geopolitical situation we are in now.

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And yet those same people excuse and justify Russian provocation. The double standards are interesting.

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"I'm not pro-Russia, I just believe in pro-Russian revisionist history."

If Putin threatened to nuke America if we didn't give him a trillion dollars, something tells me MAGA would roll right over because, "ZOMG nukes!" and, "We provoked it! It's all or fault!" It's just incredible to see such a, "America is terrible so we should just bend over and take it," attitude from people who are supposedly patriots.

Putin has been planning a Ukrainian takeover since he took power. He was hoping to do it without an invasion and simply install the puppet state like he did in Belarus but it hasn't worked out for him.

See: Invasion of Georgia in the late 00's and a new puppet state government elected a few weeks ago.

For Russia this is all about securing more defensible geographic positions along potential invasion routes given their long-term demographic decline. That's what this is about. Everything else is a pretext. Russia views taking these territories as paramount to their survival.

If it weren't for NATO the Baltics would have already been run through.

Man some people pick the worst hills to die on this place.

EastSideAg2002 said:

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Man some people pick the worst hills to die on this place.

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Agreed. Why would those here die on a hill about preventing a bunch of corrupt Eastern Europeans from giving up land to other corrupt Eastern Europeans?

Should we start worrying about other conflicts like Africans from one country taking over another African country's resources? Africans making other Africans 2nd class citizens? Why not, we have unlimited debt to spread around the world!

Putin is in a special category bc the left has conditioned America into thinking so. If Kamala won, we would almost certainly be on a path to a cold war with Russia. Trump gives us an out, by bringing back a peace deal almost as good for Ukraine as what they gave up in early 2022, before all the death and destruction.

All of you talking tough about owning Russia with our superior nuke tech won't like what your 401K does IF it gets to that. This could go sideways quick.....then China and Iran decide to pile on.

ABATTBQ11 said:

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If Putin threatened to nuke America if we didn't give him a trillion dollars, something tells me MAGA would roll right over because, "ZOMG nukes!" and, "We provoked it! It's all or fault!" It's just incredible to see such a, "America is terrible so we should just bend over and take it," attitude from people who are supposedly patriots.

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Putin already threatened to nuke the US if we intervened more directly and backed bringing Ukraine into NATO. It's not about threats, it's about a single nuke actually hitting the continental US bc we decided that was worth defending the Donbas.

We could flex our nukes against Russia for Ukraine.
We could flex our nukes against Iran for Israel.
We could flex our nukes against China for Taiwan.

Why are any of these different? Maybe the best thing for these countries is dragging the US into war when we are already on an unsustainable path to financial destruction, as Fed Chair Powel puts it.

Just prepare yourself. Trump will end the war and the media will make it out to be a sweetheart deal for Putin. But the alternative would be much much worse.

Actual nukes ended WW2 when only the US had them. Actual nukes will end WW3 when others than US have them.

The EU is driving the bus when it comes to supporting UKR militarily and for joining NATO. At this point, if one hasn't arrived to the conclusion that UKR will join NATO then I don't think one ever will?

The EU has always be ahead of the curve than the US when it comes to comes to reacting to he developing needs of UKR.

Agreed. All the off-ramps to this utter disaster have been dutifully avoided since 2014. I'm optimistic Trump does what he promised here, quickly.





The euro's are out of munitions to send, and are functionally battling their own 'populists due to the economic impacts the war's energy policies have had on their populaces:

“If Trump 2.0 ends funding to Kyiv, Europe lacks the finance, weapons and will to replace American supplies and sustain the war”https://t.co/sWMhm1xrbP

— Simona Mangiante Papadopoulos (@SimonaMangiante) November 17, 2024

BlueTaze said:

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EastSideAg2002 said:

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Man some people pick the worst hills to die on this place.

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Agreed. Why would those here die on a hill about preventing a bunch of corrupt Eastern Europeans from giving up land to other corrupt Eastern Europeans?

Should we start worrying about other conflicts like Africans from one country taking over another African country's resources? Africans making other Africans 2nd class citizens? Why not, we have unlimited debt to spread around the world!

Putin is in a special category bc the left has conditioned America into thinking so. If Kamala won, we would almost certainly be on a path to a cold war with Russia. Trump gives us an out, by bringing back a peace deal almost as good for Ukraine as what they gave up in early 2022, before all the death and destruction.

All of you talking tough about owning Russia with our superior nuke tech won't like what your 401K does IF it gets to that. This could go sideways quick.....then China and Iran decide to pile on.

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precisely. Meanwhile the Warhawks have gotten us into russia-china-irans trap of expanding war. This isn't sustainable. Munitions supply chains are getting thin. What happens when another front opens up?

We're not ready to lose our first war to a major power...which could happen if, say China attacks taiwan. Extrapolate what happens after that. We have no business in Ukraine except to cripple Putin (which is definitely a worthy cause)...i think he's gotten the message. End it. Focus 100% on draining the swamp

What makes you think Putin wants to end it? What makes you think Ukraine will end it without years of continued fighting even if we cut them off?

FCBlitz said:

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The EU is driving the bus when it comes to supporting UKR militarily and for joining NATO. At this point, if one hasn't arrived to the conclusion that UKR will join NATO then I don't think one ever will?

The EU has always be ahead of the curve than the US when it comes to comes to reacting to he developing needs of UKR.

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Teslag said:

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What makes you think Putin wants to end it? What makes you think Ukraine will end it without years of continued fighting even if we cut them off?

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derp

Ukraine getting into NATO is not a foregone conclusion. The NATO Sec General wanted them in and publicly campaigned for it, but he was obviously biased to want to do that.

Germany is against it right now. Biden was against it regardless of what tard Kamala wanted. Trump is against it (I think).

The latest news out of Europe (WSJ) is that leaders are ready to deal and get this thing over with. Everyone can think Trump for that. They've just been waiting for an opportunity to get out of it and now they have one.

Teslag said:

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What makes you think Putin wants to end it? What makes you think Ukraine will end it without years of continued fighting even if we cut them off?

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The cost of war and cost of rebuilding newly acquired land masses, along with assurances Ukraine won't join NATO. That's what would make Putin want to quit. Ukraine will do whatever the US tells them to do. Which will soon be to enter into a peace deal that gives up the Donbas and formally commits to never joining NATO.

That would be a great outcome we should all celebrate. The only question is if that outcome could have been achieved in early 2022 when the Biden admin decided to pull out of peace negotiations and openly lobby for Ukraine to join NATO. Before all the death and destruction ensued.

Sid Farkas said:

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Teslag said:

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What makes you think Putin wants to end it? What makes you think Ukraine will end it without years of continued fighting even if we cut them off?

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derp

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Brilliant contribution

Putin doesn't care about NATO. He just wants Ukraine to be a part of Russia.

Yeah, forcing them to give up the bulk of their ec9nomic viability so they fall into poverty and eventually have to capitulate to, or become dependent on, Russia or China is a GREAT outcome.

Teslag said:

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Putin doesn't care about NATO.

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Exactly my point. NATO already bordered Russia and this war only increased NATO's border with the inclusion of Finland. It was never about NATO. It was always only about making Ukraine a part of Russia.

I can understand the arguement that Gorgachev wasn't concerned about NATO expansion in late 80s and early 90s. But to claim Putin isn't concerned about NATO expansion into Ukraine today, well that just shows how absolutely clueless you are.

As we watch this play out, you will learn how big a bargaining chip Ukriane joining, or not joining, NATO is. If Ukriane joins NATO, Putin immediately ends the war OR immediately joins China and Iran in a cold or hot WW3 against us. To avoid the latter, huge swaths of land would have to given to Russia (more than what was on table in early 2022).

We will soon see, probably in first year of Trump's term.

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. But to claim Putin isn't concerned about NATO expansion into Ukraine today, well that just shows how absolutely clueless you are.

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Putin's only "concern" for NATO is that they have the power to keep him from annexing Ukraine. That's it. That's all it ever was.

And china isn't engaging in a hot war with their largest trading partner and export market because Putin got denied a Russian state in Ukraine.

Teslag said:

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Putin's only "concern" for NATO is that they have the power to keep him from annexing Ukraine. That's it. That's all it ever was.

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If that's the case, the coming peace deal will make no assurances against NATO expansion. Weatern Ukraine will join NATO, and Putin will get a large chunk of Eastern Ukriane. Like I said, we will soon see who is right.

The US promised Russia (Gorbachev) that we wouldn't expand NATO….that promise lasted only a couple of years.

Russia/Putin has reason to mistrust and fear America. That's an observation, not an excuse for Putin.

Wars are full of incalculable risk. In this case, the risk is no longer worth it.

Make peace with our enemies, so we can fight the swamp enemies at home.

Teslag said:

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And china isn't engaging in a hot war with their largest trading partner and export market because Putin got denied a Russian state in Ukraine.

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China and Iran have their own grievances with the West. China would prob dump $800B in US treasuries before any hot war. But as I keep saying, we don't want to go anywhere near any of that, over some corrupt eastern euro country. Trump only has to address it bc the Biden admin decided to get so heavily involved. The EU should have been managing any Ukraine support with their money/weapons, not US.