Found Teslag, 55 secs in

Infection_Ag11 said:

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ABATTBQ11 said:

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BlueTaze said:

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Putin was absolutely provoked. It's not even debatable. The war could have easily been avoided. Acknowledging this reality doesn't make you pro Russia/Putin.

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This is bull****.

For one, the supposed provocation was never mentioned by Putin. All he said before invading was that Ukraine was full of fascists threatening ethnic Russians, which is the same crap exist he's been using to annex territories for the last two decades.

For two, he pulled defenses and personnel positions that would be defending against Europe and NATO in some hypothetical and far-fetched invasion of Russia. He also drove even more neighbors into NATO membership that completely locked Kaliningrad within NATO countries. If his provocation was somehow NATO and European encroachment, he's completely lost the objective.

For three, the areas he's been trying to annex for the last 15 years just happen to be the parts that are profitable and that Ukrainians want to keep it off Russian influence. Putin is an old school Russian imperialist who liked having the Soviet vassal states feeding mother Russia, and that's his only motivation here. This is a resource grab because Ukraine decided to finally throw off the yoke of Soviet/Russian influence and domination and his ability to meddle in Ukrainian affairs was minimized.

Making excuses for never ending Russian aggression and rejecting reality in favor of a dictator does in fact make you pro Russia/Putin

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Just because the response wasn't justified doesn't mean they weren't provoked. It is not debatable that actions by the US/Ukraine/EU leading up to the invasion provoked Putin.

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Again. It was a land grab. There was no provocation needed.

Teslag said:

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Infection_Ag11 said:

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ABATTBQ11 said:

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BlueTaze said:

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Putin was absolutely provoked. It's not even debatable. The war could have easily been avoided. Acknowledging this reality doesn't make you pro Russia/Putin.

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This is bull****.

For one, the supposed provocation was never mentioned by Putin. All he said before invading was that Ukraine was full of fascists threatening ethnic Russians, which is the same crap exist he's been using to annex territories for the last two decades.

For two, he pulled defenses and personnel positions that would be defending against Europe and NATO in some hypothetical and far-fetched invasion of Russia. He also drove even more neighbors into NATO membership that completely locked Kaliningrad within NATO countries. If his provocation was somehow NATO and European encroachment, he's completely lost the objective.

For three, the areas he's been trying to annex for the last 15 years just happen to be the parts that are profitable and that Ukrainians want to keep it off Russian influence. Putin is an old school Russian imperialist who liked having the Soviet vassal states feeding mother Russia, and that's his only motivation here. This is a resource grab because Ukraine decided to finally throw off the yoke of Soviet/Russian influence and domination and his ability to meddle in Ukrainian affairs was minimized.

Making excuses for never ending Russian aggression and rejecting reality in favor of a dictator does in fact make you pro Russia/Putin

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Just because the response wasn't justified doesn't mean they weren't provoked. It is not debatable that actions by the US/Ukraine/EU leading up to the invasion provoked Putin.

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Again. It was a land grab. There was no provocation needed.

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Sure, but he didn't do it before the Biden administration decided to make him think it was a necessity as opposed to a desire.

GAC06 said:

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I'm not a European. The EU has given more than us. You sound lost. Have a good one.

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You including military aid?

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1303432/total-bilateral-aid-to-ukraine/

I believe he simply felt the time was right and his forces were up to it. And he also thought Biden wouldn't push back, which he didn't. The only reason we ever really helped is because the Ukrainians showed they could stop the invasion.

Infection_Ag11 said:

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Teslag said:

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Infection_Ag11 said:

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ABATTBQ11 said:

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BlueTaze said:

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Putin was absolutely provoked. It's not even debatable. The war could have easily been avoided. Acknowledging this reality doesn't make you pro Russia/Putin.

---

This is bull****.

For one, the supposed provocation was never mentioned by Putin. All he said before invading was that Ukraine was full of fascists threatening ethnic Russians, which is the same crap exist he's been using to annex territories for the last two decades.

For two, he pulled defenses and personnel positions that would be defending against Europe and NATO in some hypothetical and far-fetched invasion of Russia. He also drove even more neighbors into NATO membership that completely locked Kaliningrad within NATO countries. If his provocation was somehow NATO and European encroachment, he's completely lost the objective.

For three, the areas he's been trying to annex for the last 15 years just happen to be the parts that are profitable and that Ukrainians want to keep it off Russian influence. Putin is an old school Russian imperialist who liked having the Soviet vassal states feeding mother Russia, and that's his only motivation here. This is a resource grab because Ukraine decided to finally throw off the yoke of Soviet/Russian influence and domination and his ability to meddle in Ukrainian affairs was minimized.

Making excuses for never ending Russian aggression and rejecting reality in favor of a dictator does in fact make you pro Russia/Putin

---

Just because the response wasn't justified doesn't mean they weren't provoked. It is not debatable that actions by the US/Ukraine/EU leading up to the invasion provoked Putin.

---

Again. It was a land grab. There was no provocation needed.

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Sure, but he didn't do it before the Biden administration decided to make him think it was a necessity as opposed to a desire.

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Biden didn't make him think it was necessary. Biden made him think we wouldn't interfere and there would be no repercussions. Russia tends to exploit weakness and avoid testing perceived strength.

One of the biggest aspects in which the Biden administration is such a reprehensible failure in foreign policy is their persistent signaling of weakness to bad actors. And we see the results.

Rossticus said:

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Infection_Ag11 said:

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Teslag said:

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Infection_Ag11 said:

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ABATTBQ11 said:

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BlueTaze said:

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Putin was absolutely provoked. It's not even debatable. The war could have easily been avoided. Acknowledging this reality doesn't make you pro Russia/Putin.

---

This is bull****.

For one, the supposed provocation was never mentioned by Putin. All he said before invading was that Ukraine was full of fascists threatening ethnic Russians, which is the same crap exist he's been using to annex territories for the last two decades.

For two, he pulled defenses and personnel positions that would be defending against Europe and NATO in some hypothetical and far-fetched invasion of Russia. He also drove even more neighbors into NATO membership that completely locked Kaliningrad within NATO countries. If his provocation was somehow NATO and European encroachment, he's completely lost the objective.

For three, the areas he's been trying to annex for the last 15 years just happen to be the parts that are profitable and that Ukrainians want to keep it off Russian influence. Putin is an old school Russian imperialist who liked having the Soviet vassal states feeding mother Russia, and that's his only motivation here. This is a resource grab because Ukraine decided to finally throw off the yoke of Soviet/Russian influence and domination and his ability to meddle in Ukrainian affairs was minimized.

Making excuses for never ending Russian aggression and rejecting reality in favor of a dictator does in fact make you pro Russia/Putin

---

Just because the response wasn't justified doesn't mean they weren't provoked. It is not debatable that actions by the US/Ukraine/EU leading up to the invasion provoked Putin.

---

Again. It was a land grab. There was no provocation needed.

---

Sure, but he didn't do it before the Biden administration decided to make him think it was a necessity as opposed to a desire.

---

Biden didn't make him think it was necessary. Biden made him think we wouldn't interfere and there would be no repercussions. Russia tends to exploit weakness and avoid testing perceived strength.

One of the biggest aspects in which the Biden administration is such a reprehensible failure in foreign policy is their persistent signaling of weakness to bad actors. And we see the results.

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His administration, with the tacit support of the EU, overtly insinuated a pending addition of Ukraine to NATO within 5 years. Obviously that wasn't the ONLY issue, but that has been Russia's line in the sand for 25 years.

The only reason Russia didn't want Ukraine in NATO was because it meant it would be impossible for them to actually invade and acquire Ukraine, which was their ultimate goal for a decade prior.

Russia recognized Ukraine's sovereignty in 1991 after Ukrainians voted 90% for independence. From that point on Ukraine was free to join any organization or pact they wanted.

Infection_Ag11 said:

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Rossticus said:

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Infection_Ag11 said:

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Teslag said:

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Infection_Ag11 said:

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ABATTBQ11 said:

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BlueTaze said:

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Putin was absolutely provoked. It's not even debatable. The war could have easily been avoided. Acknowledging this reality doesn't make you pro Russia/Putin.

---

This is bull****.

For one, the supposed provocation was never mentioned by Putin. All he said before invading was that Ukraine was full of fascists threatening ethnic Russians, which is the same crap exist he's been using to annex territories for the last two decades.

For two, he pulled defenses and personnel positions that would be defending against Europe and NATO in some hypothetical and far-fetched invasion of Russia. He also drove even more neighbors into NATO membership that completely locked Kaliningrad within NATO countries. If his provocation was somehow NATO and European encroachment, he's completely lost the objective.

For three, the areas he's been trying to annex for the last 15 years just happen to be the parts that are profitable and that Ukrainians want to keep it off Russian influence. Putin is an old school Russian imperialist who liked having the Soviet vassal states feeding mother Russia, and that's his only motivation here. This is a resource grab because Ukraine decided to finally throw off the yoke of Soviet/Russian influence and domination and his ability to meddle in Ukrainian affairs was minimized.

Making excuses for never ending Russian aggression and rejecting reality in favor of a dictator does in fact make you pro Russia/Putin

---

Just because the response wasn't justified doesn't mean they weren't provoked. It is not debatable that actions by the US/Ukraine/EU leading up to the invasion provoked Putin.

---

Again. It was a land grab. There was no provocation needed.

---

Sure, but he didn't do it before the Biden administration decided to make him think it was a necessity as opposed to a desire.

---

Biden didn't make him think it was necessary. Biden made him think we wouldn't interfere and there would be no repercussions. Russia tends to exploit weakness and avoid testing perceived strength.

One of the biggest aspects in which the Biden administration is such a reprehensible failure in foreign policy is their persistent signaling of weakness to bad actors. And we see the results.

---

His administration, with the tacit support of the EU, overtly insinuated a pending addition of Ukraine to NATO within 5 years. Obviously that wasn't the ONLY issue, but that has been Russia's line in the sand for 25 years.

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That wasn't a provocation as much as it was a reason to speed up Russia's timetable to annex Ukraine.

Infection_Ag11 said:

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Rossticus said:

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Infection_Ag11 said:

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Teslag said:

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Infection_Ag11 said:

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ABATTBQ11 said:

---

BlueTaze said:

---

Putin was absolutely provoked. It's not even debatable. The war could have easily been avoided. Acknowledging this reality doesn't make you pro Russia/Putin.

---

This is bull****.

For one, the supposed provocation was never mentioned by Putin. All he said before invading was that Ukraine was full of fascists threatening ethnic Russians, which is the same crap exist he's been using to annex territories for the last two decades.

For two, he pulled defenses and personnel positions that would be defending against Europe and NATO in some hypothetical and far-fetched invasion of Russia. He also drove even more neighbors into NATO membership that completely locked Kaliningrad within NATO countries. If his provocation was somehow NATO and European encroachment, he's completely lost the objective.

For three, the areas he's been trying to annex for the last 15 years just happen to be the parts that are profitable and that Ukrainians want to keep it off Russian influence. Putin is an old school Russian imperialist who liked having the Soviet vassal states feeding mother Russia, and that's his only motivation here. This is a resource grab because Ukraine decided to finally throw off the yoke of Soviet/Russian influence and domination and his ability to meddle in Ukrainian affairs was minimized.

Making excuses for never ending Russian aggression and rejecting reality in favor of a dictator does in fact make you pro Russia/Putin

---

Just because the response wasn't justified doesn't mean they weren't provoked. It is not debatable that actions by the US/Ukraine/EU leading up to the invasion provoked Putin.

---

Again. It was a land grab. There was no provocation needed.

---

Sure, but he didn't do it before the Biden administration decided to make him think it was a necessity as opposed to a desire.

---

Biden didn't make him think it was necessary. Biden made him think we wouldn't interfere and there would be no repercussions. Russia tends to exploit weakness and avoid testing perceived strength.

One of the biggest aspects in which the Biden administration is such a reprehensible failure in foreign policy is their persistent signaling of weakness to bad actors. And we see the results.

---

His administration, with the tacit support of the EU, overtly insinuated a pending addition of Ukraine to NATO within 5 years. Obviously that wasn't the ONLY issue, but that has been Russia's line in the sand for 25 years.

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Russia, on paper, committed to ensuring Ukraine's territorial integrity when they gave up their nuclear material and delivery devices. I tend to think that their decision to then re-take Crimea and start directly fomenting a separatist uprising (complete with Russians and Russian military) would violate that promise and render any expectations that they might have null and void. And this happened waaaaay before any NATO talk.

I find the train of thought that Russia can militarily encroach on a neighboring country which they promised to protect and then retroactively rationalize it when that country seeks out a defense treaty… welll… stupid.

They wanted to join a defensive pact to keep us from invading them after we invaded them so we invaded them again.

Old Army Ghost said:

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Tea Party said:

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If EU wants to support Ukraine because they are worried about Russia then the EU can start pitching in.

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why f16 doesnt know facts is beyond me

The US has committed the second-largest amount of money to help Ukraine overall including military, financial and humanitarian assistance after the European Union, which has sent a total of around $93.3 billion, according to Kiel Institute data. That figure does not include contributions from individual EU member states, which are counted separately.

But unlike some of Ukraine's smaller allies, Washington's contributions account for 0.3% of its GDP, data shows.

Denmark, Norway and the Baltic states bordering Russia Estonia, Lithuania and Latvia are committing a greater proportion of their wealth to the war at more than 1% of their GDP.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/05/world/ukraine-money-military-aid-intl-dg/index.html

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Check those CNN numbers...we've sent almost double the amount you note.

Quote:

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The total budget authority under these billsthe "headline" figure often cited by news mediais $175 billion.

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https://www.cfr.org/article/how-much-us-aid-going-ukraine

Depends. There's a difference between what we've allocated and what's actually been utilized. We've been sitting in a substantial portion of the approved amount for quite some time. It gets a bit convoluted.

ABATTBQ11 said:

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doubledog said:

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Quote:

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Zelensky says Ukraine war will end 'faster' under Trump presidency

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So end it now, why wait.... Oh right the 10% to the big guy kickbacks.

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It is amazing that this keeps getting parroted when Zelensky is the reformist candidate and all of Hunter and Joe's dealings were under the regime that he ran on replacing. And there's 0 evidence whatsoever of any kind grift or theft. It's almost like Biden finally figured out supporting Ukraine was a good thing and then it has to be a bad thing for MAGA. 100% if Trump decided to give Ukraine weapons everyone crying about it would be calling for more, more, more.

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I did not say who was paying Joe the 10%.

He knows he's got to immediately start kissing Trump's ass. **** him and **** his war!

Teslag said:

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The only reason Russia didn't want Ukraine in NATO was because it meant it would be impossible for them to actually invade and acquire Ukraine, which was their ultimate goal for a decade prior.

Russia recognized Ukraine's sovereignty in 1991 after Ukrainians voted 90% for independence. From that point on Ukraine was free to join any organization or pact they wanted.

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The best thing to come from Putin's failure to take over all of Ukraine is that in the next Dem presidency, Ukraine will likely get fast-tracked into NATO, thereby cementing Putin's failure to not only take over all of Ukraine but to keep NATO from expanding and strengthening itself.

Slava Ukraini

I'm ok with funding Ukraine....after the following happens:

- Finish the wall
- Develop a much better, multi-layered approach to US border security
- Fund counter measures that target the cartels to weaken and destroy them
- Establish a Monroe Doctrine 2.0

If there is anything left for Ukraine after this is completed and if they still exist, then sure give them some resources.

No Spin Ag said:

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Teslag said:

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The only reason Russia didn't want Ukraine in NATO was because it meant it would be impossible for them to actually invade and acquire Ukraine, which was their ultimate goal for a decade prior.

Russia recognized Ukraine's sovereignty in 1991 after Ukrainians voted 90% for independence. From that point on Ukraine was free to join any organization or pact they wanted.

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The best thing to come from Putin's failure to take over all of Ukraine is that in the next Dem presidency, Ukraine will likely get fast-tracked into NATO, thereby cementing Putin's failure to not only take over all of Ukraine but to keep NATO from expanding and strengthening itself.

Slava Ukraini

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Well, Germany is against that as recently as yesterday. The US has been against this as well.

What is more likely are military assurances that we will help them in the future, in some form or fashion. This is actually what Ukraine was pushing for during the 2022 peace negotiations with Russia but the US didn't want to sign onto that. At the time, Ukraine was effectively asking for NATO equivalent assurances without being in NATO and we had no interest in that.

YouBet said:

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No Spin Ag said:

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Teslag said:

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The only reason Russia didn't want Ukraine in NATO was because it meant it would be impossible for them to actually invade and acquire Ukraine, which was their ultimate goal for a decade prior.

Russia recognized Ukraine's sovereignty in 1991 after Ukrainians voted 90% for independence. From that point on Ukraine was free to join any organization or pact they wanted.

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The best thing to come from Putin's failure to take over all of Ukraine is that in the next Dem presidency, Ukraine will likely get fast-tracked into NATO, thereby cementing Putin's failure to not only take over all of Ukraine but to keep NATO from expanding and strengthening itself.

Slava Ukraini

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Well, Germany is against that as recently as yesterday. The US has been against this as well.

What is more likely are military assurances that we will help them in the future, in some form or fashion. This is actually what Ukraine was pushing for during the 2022 peace negotiations with Russia but the US didn't want to sign onto that. At the time, Ukraine was effectively asking for NATO equivalent assurances without being in NATO and we had no interest in that.

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I forgot about that. Thanks for the reminder.

That's still infinitely better than what they have right now.

There is peace across the globe because Biden said "Don't!"


He said it like 5 times. So surely it resulted in peace. Right?

Such a feckless administration.

e=mc2 said:

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There is peace across the globe because Biden said "Don't!"


He said it like 5 times. So surely it resulted in peace. Right?

Such a feckless administration.

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Kind of like Obama's red line?

The last of the virtue-signalers have finally dropped the Ukraine flag from their bio. What do you think that means? pic.twitter.com/caF2FUVIY3

— David Sacks (@DavidSacks) November 17, 2024

LOL.