Teslag said:

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Quote:

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Hyundai/Kia don't appear to be as reliable as Toyota.

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I don't think this is true anymore. Especially Toyota having problems with their turbo motors.

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They'll fix it. Give em 2 years.

With population demographics in the world starting to flatline and shrink, the publicly-traded automaker is turbo-****ed. Consumer growth is the only thing that keeps that system afloat. If you can't sell more cars, you have to inflate the prices. When you don't have increasing volumes, you have to throw $5,000 worth of **** in the car and inflate the price by $30,000.

Regulations and liabilities keep them protected from real competition. Deregulate and prices will plummet.

But, muh, consumer safety-uh! Yeah, well, people gonna be real safe riding the bus with the deranged homeless or riding a bike on a freeway.

Sims said:

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Cars also used to get you from point a to point b.

Now the car drives itself while you watch a movie with 7.1 surround and your heated massaging seat melts your cares away.

Maybe they need a lower end vehicle that accomplishes a task in a pragmatic way.

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While I don't disagree, the problem is, you can buy the used, point A to point B, nothing fancy car. It still takes up a much higher percent of income today than it did 5-10 years ago.

But yes, like homes, we need newer options without the bells and whistles. Will people buy them? I don't know. I'd like to think so, considering the financial pain some are in. But we don't seem to be producing them.

For example. A used Honda Civic with 50k miles on it still shows up around $13-14k on a quick search. That car would have cost $6-7K 10 years ago. Wages have not doubled, but payments have.

Stonegateag85 said:

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Seriously, I'm almost 40 with two kids. The price of new SUVs and even minivans is downright absurd. Certified used, also absurd. Furthermore, on no planet is my wife driving around our kids in an unreliable 12K used car.

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Used Teslas are cheap.

CDUB98 said:

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Virtually no one's salaries climbed at the rate auto prices did the last few years.

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Except those of the union auto worker.

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Of course. Must be nice having people continue to negotiate for a higher salary for them.

Aggie95 said:

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it used to make more sense to buy used cars too. That has changed in the last 5 years. I still buy them, but when you look at the price difference of a 2022 used car vs a new 2024....it's usually less than $2,000

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Yeah the resale prices I see for used are insane. They want to charge just a few thousand less for something that has 50K or more miles on it.

BluHorseShu said:

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CDUB98 said:

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Virtually no one's salaries climbed at the rate auto prices did the last few years.

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Except those of the union auto worker.

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Of course. Must be nice having people continue to negotiate for a higher salary for them.

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Because that is all it is, and at ridiculous levels.

But, your concern is noted.

No Spin Ag said:

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techno-ag said:

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https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/cars-were-once-a-financial-engine-of-america-s-middle-class-now-they-re-a-wealth-killer/ar-AA1tXWhC

Good article. Interview with people over at Dave Ramsey's podcast series. Average new car prices approaching $50k, many payments over $1k/mo. Used car averages close to $30k. Sucking up more and more income, now a trap more so than it ever was.

Government regs don't help of course, nor does the push for electrification.

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Will tarrifs have any effect on auto prices?

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Only if you are dead-set on a BMW or Mercedes.

Japan and South Korea have low or no tariffs on US sedans, so I don't see Trump jacking up tariffs on Hondas, Toyotas, Kias, or Hyundais.

Is it really important to you to own a European car?

Funky Winkerbean said:

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Government allowing 8 year terms is part of the problem.

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What? The government should have nothing to do with the length of auto loans. If you're dumb enough to take 96 months to finance a car you're going to have for 36 months, well, the line for Darwin Awards is over there. <<<<<

Gigem314 said:

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Aggie95 said:

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it used to make more sense to buy used cars too. That has changed in the last 5 years. I still buy them, but when you look at the price difference of a 2022 used car vs a new 2024....it's usually less than $2,000

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Yeah the resale prices I see for used are insane. They want to charge just a few thousand less for something that has 50K or more miles on it.

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Also crazy. It used to drop 20% the day you drove it off the lot. Now, it doesn't even drop 20% with 50k miles on it.

Hagen95 said:

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Tea Party said:

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Sims said:

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Cars also used to get you from point a to point b.

Now the car drives itself while you watch a movie with 7.1 surround and your heated massaging seat melts your cares away.

Maybe they need a lower end vehicle that accomplishes a task in a pragmatic way.

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Bring back carbs and the only electronics in a vehicle is the AM radio.

I'm only somewhat joking as I would seriously entertain a bare bones vehicle that could survive an EMP .

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Horses are cheap these days.

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Um. No they are not.

LOYAL AG said:

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Funky Winkerbean said:

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Government allowing 8 year terms is part of the problem.

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What? The government should have nothing to do with the length of auto loans. If you're dumb enough to take 96 months to finance a car you're going to have for 36 months, well, the line for Darwin Awards is over there. <<<<<

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Considering I typically keep cars for 10-15 years, if I could get 96 months at 0%, I'd do it in a heartbeat and you'd see me rolling a Denali.

No Spin Ag said:

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Nanomachines son said:

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Lathspell said:

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Everyone also wants to live above their means.

Zoomers and Millennials expect the same lifestyle they experienced at the point when they left their parent's home, if they have even left. They also want status instead of living frugally:

• They want a brand new $35K+ car instead of a $12K used car, because god forbid someone isn't impressed with their ride.
• They want to live in a 1BR apartment in the nicest part of town so they can walk to nice restaurants, bars, and shopping, because god forbid they live with a few roommates.
• They want designer clothing and accessories, because god-forbid others see them as cheap.
• They want to travel and go out to party multiple times a week, because what kind of crazy world would it be if they couldn't life that extravagant weekend lifestyle?!
• They want the newest and nicest technology. A 2 Yr old iPhone is not good enough, they need to buy the latest and greatest iPhone every year.

And then they complain about life being expensive. I agree, it is more expensive than it should be. But they make it so much harder on themselves.

I've also heard people talk about not having money left over for their savings after all their expenses. What a backwards way of looking at your finances. They can't conceive of the idea that you put your money into your savings FIRST, and then look at the remainder and make your budgetary decisions.

15% of my income is taken out between 401K and my other investments before I even consider my budget for home, auto, and other expenses.

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Yeah it's the people's fault for wanting to live and not the fault of the system obliterating affordable vehicles for people.

My wife and I are in the top 5% household now and these car prices are insane. $1000 a month payment? Sure we could handle that but no car is worth that amount. What the **** is a person who makes the median income for a family supposed to do to afford a vehicle? Are they just supposed to walk to and from work or get on public transportation that sucks and is full of violent criminals?

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I like that you don't forget about the rest even though you're now where you are.

Hopefully Trump will be able to get prices of autos down to at least where they were at right before covid hit.

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Impossible.

M2 money supply has increased by 25% since then. You could reduce M2 by a little, but it would be stupid to target M2 of 16 trillion again.

AggieDruggist89 said:

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Used Toyota for the win.

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Only thing I'll buy. 4 yr used is the sweet spot between mileage and depreciation.

techno-ag said:

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Stonegateag85 said:

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Seriously, I'm almost 40 with two kids. The price of new SUVs and even minivans is downright absurd. Certified used, also absurd. Furthermore, on no planet is my wife driving around our kids in an unreliable 12K used car.

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Used Teslas are cheap.

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Define cheap. Used Model Y's are still commanding north of $30k.

CDUB98 said:

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LOYAL AG said:

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Funky Winkerbean said:

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Government allowing 8 year terms is part of the problem.

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What? The government should have nothing to do with the length of auto loans. If you're dumb enough to take 96 months to finance a car you're going to have for 36 months, well, the line for Darwin Awards is over there. <<<<<

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Considering I typically keep cars for 10-15 years, if I could get 96 months at 0%, I'd do it in a heartbeat and you'd see me rolling a Denali.

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I prefer old, ugly cars. I would rather spend my money on rental houses.

Auto Reply

No Spin Ag said:

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techno-ag said:

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https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/cars-were-once-a-financial-engine-of-america-s-middle-class-now-they-re-a-wealth-killer/ar-AA1tXWhC

Good article. Interview with people over at Dave Ramsey's podcast series. Average new car prices approaching $50k, many payments over $1k/mo. Used car averages close to $30k. Sucking up more and more income, now a trap more so than it ever was.

Government regs don't help of course, nor does the push for electrification.

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Will tarrifs have any effect on auto prices?

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My understanding is if it's manufactured in the USA, there's no tariff.

Most foreign cars are built here.

I also thought the Tariff was to target Chinese EVs and protect Tesla.

Holding everyone down because it has forced middle class to buy cash cars instead and that has driven up used prices.

Get ready for Stagflation....

Stalantis has had a 67% decrease in demand. that is insane. the UAW is likely paying for their pay increases as all the manufacturers are laying everyone off. We are facing a crazy headwind as inflation has started creeping back up since they've lowered rates twice now.

Sadly, the fed is stuck between a rock and a hard place with all the spending since Obama to now.

CDUB98 said:

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I would seriously entertain a bare bones vehicle that could survive an EMP

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Not sure you understand how an EMP works.

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Extra Motor Part?

IIIHorn said:

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CDUB98 said:

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Quote:

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I would seriously entertain a bare bones vehicle that could survive an EMP

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Not sure you understand how an EMP works.

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Extra Motor Part?

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D-

CDUB98 said:

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LOYAL AG said:

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Funky Winkerbean said:

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Government allowing 8 year terms is part of the problem.

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What? The government should have nothing to do with the length of auto loans. If you're dumb enough to take 96 months to finance a car you're going to have for 36 months, well, the line for Darwin Awards is over there. <<<<<

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Considering I typically keep cars for 10-15 years, if I could get 96 months at 0%, I'd do it in a heartbeat and you'd see me rolling a Denali.

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Yeah I'm generally ok with 5y at 3% or less and driving them for 10. At that rate I can make money on the arbitrage and I'm happy. I did just buy a new Tesla Model Y at 0% for 5y so we'll see how that works out.

My truck has 161k miles on it. I plan to drive it to 300+k assuming I'm not putting 5 grand into a year to keep it running. As long as it financially makes sense.

When I do buy a new truck, I'm hoping it's A) 7-8 years from now, and B) has about 50-75k miles on it but still reliable. Drive that truck another 225K to 300k, too. If I can get really lucky, driving about 20-25k miles a year, I can theoretically buy only one more (used) vehicle the next 17-18 years. Who knows by the time, I'll be right on the cusp of retirement, how ICE vehicles will look then. Maybe I buy one more around that time as my retirement vehicle and that's it. If all goes perfectly.

Life happens though, and vehicles may crap out, or need to be totaled out, etc.,

AggieDruggist89 said:

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No Spin Ag said:

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techno-ag said:

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https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/cars-were-once-a-financial-engine-of-america-s-middle-class-now-they-re-a-wealth-killer/ar-AA1tXWhC

Good article. Interview with people over at Dave Ramsey's podcast series. Average new car prices approaching $50k, many payments over $1k/mo. Used car averages close to $30k. Sucking up more and more income, now a trap more so than it ever was.

Government regs don't help of course, nor does the push for electrification.

---

Will tarrifs have any effect on auto prices?

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My understanding is if it's manufactured in the USA, there's no tariff.

Most foreign cars are built here.

I also thought the Tariff was to target Chinese EVs and protect Tesla.

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Nearly every part on the car "built" here is imported in pieces and will be tarrif'd.

CDUB98 said:

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IIIHorn said:

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CDUB98 said:

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Quote:

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I would seriously entertain a bare bones vehicle that could survive an EMP

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Not sure you understand how an EMP works.

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Extra Motor Part?

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D-

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You are being very gracious, CDUB

Overblown and misleading. My kids have an old Sequoia that they bought for $3,000, 4-year-old Forrester that they bought for $27K, a four-year-old Honda Odyssey for about $25K. The only one of them who bought new picked up a Ford Maverick for less than $30K. I on the other hand do buy the expensive SUV's and pickups, because I can afford it. Guess what? When I was younger and couldn't afford it, I bought old and used. If you don't want to high car payment you can avoid it and still have reliable transportation.

AggieDruggist89 said:

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Old May Banker said:

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Horses are cheap these days.

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Actually, good horses are higher than they've ever been...

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Friend just paid $30,000 for a roping horse for their kid.

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Buying a roping horse is like buying a BMW. Awesome, but not necessary.

I'm about due for a new truck. Current one is a 2015 F-150 and my son will take it to college most likely (he is still going to pay me for about half of it at current value). I was thinking of getting a new Tundra but now I think I will just find a gently used well appointed version of the prior edition with the V-8. I'm guessing one of those should go 10 years without too many issues.

The easy way to fix this is to attack CAFE standards and other regulations that make it insanely expensive to make cars. Milton Friedman had a lot of conversations about this decades ago and he was right then and right now. It's ironic to me seeing someone like RFK on the side of deregulation and the how out of control the FDA is when he was such a loud liberal on the other side when he was younger for different areas of government intrusion. A lot of our current problems started with Ralph Nader and the Corvair.

BusterAg said:

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Hagen95 said:

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Tea Party said:

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Sims said:

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Cars also used to get you from point a to point b.

Now the car drives itself while you watch a movie with 7.1 surround and your heated massaging seat melts your cares away.

Maybe they need a lower end vehicle that accomplishes a task in a pragmatic way.

---

Bring back carbs and the only electronics in a vehicle is the AM radio.

I'm only somewhat joking as I would seriously entertain a bare bones vehicle that could survive an EMP .

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Horses are cheap these days.

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Um. No they are not.

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I asked my rancher father and yes, they are. I can get a free one, just don't check it's teeth.

Hagen95 said:

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AggieDruggist89 said:

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Old May Banker said:

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Quote:

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Horses are cheap these days.

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Actually, good horses are higher than they've ever been...

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Friend just paid $30,000 for a roping horse for their kid.

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Buying a roping horse is like buying a BMW. Awesome, but not necessary.

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I don't know anything about it. But he ropes almost every week and wins a bunch of stuff and cash. Also won CA regional as a 9th grader...and roped in the national in Wyoming few months ago. He's hooked up with a bunch of pros in his area. I think they're thinking he's going pro.

BowSowy said:

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Lathspell said:

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Everyone also wants to live above their means.

Zoomers and Millennials expect the same lifestyle they experienced at the point when they left their parent's home, if they have even left. They also want status instead of living frugally:

• They want a brand new $35K+ car instead of a $12K used car, because god forbid someone isn't impressed with their ride.
• They want to live in a 1BR apartment in the nicest part of town so they can walk to nice restaurants, bars, and shopping, because god forbid they live with a few roommates.
• They want designer clothing and accessories, because god-forbid others see them as cheap.
• They want to travel and go out to party multiple times a week, because what kind of crazy world would it be if they couldn't life that extravagant weekend lifestyle?!
• They want the newest and nicest technology. A 2 Yr old iPhone is not good enough, they need to buy the latest and greatest iPhone every year.

And then they complain about life being expensive. I agree, it is more expensive than it should be. But they make it so much harder on themselves.

I've also heard people talk about not having money left over for their savings after all their expenses. What a backwards way of looking at your finances. They can't conceive of the idea that you put your money into your savings FIRST, and then look at the remainder and make your budgetary decisions.

15% of my income is taken out between 401K and my other investments before I even consider my budget for home, auto, and other expenses.

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Serious question, how many millennials do you know that are still living in the city (with roommates?), traveling all the time, and partying every weekend? I feel like your definition of millennial is stuck 10-15 years in the past, most of us late-30s and settled down with a family.

Besides, none of that has anything to do with the fact that cars are way too expensive. You just wanted to get a rant in.

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People use millennial as a catchall for essentially every person younger than they are. It's essentially used to describe anyone from 18 to 44.

Lathspell said:

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Everyone also wants to live above their means.

Zoomers and Millennials expect the same lifestyle they experienced at the point when they left their parent's home, if they have even left. They also want status instead of living frugally:

• They want a brand new $35K+ car instead of a $12K used car, because god forbid someone isn't impressed with their ride.
• They want to live in a 1BR apartment in the nicest part of town so they can walk to nice restaurants, bars, and shopping, because god forbid they live with a few roommates.
• They want designer clothing and accessories, because god-forbid others see them as cheap.
• They want to travel and go out to party multiple times a week, because what kind of crazy world would it be if they couldn't life that extravagant weekend lifestyle?!
• They want the newest and nicest technology. A 2 Yr old iPhone is not good enough, they need to buy the latest and greatest iPhone every year.

And then they complain about life being expensive. I agree, it is more expensive than it should be. But they make it so much harder on themselves.

I've also heard people talk about not having money left over for their savings after all their expenses. What a backwards way of looking at your finances. They can't conceive of the idea that you put your money into your savings FIRST, and then look at the remainder and make your budgetary decisions.

15% of my income is taken out between 401K and my other investments before I even consider my budget for home, auto, and other expenses.

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No, not everyone. I will agree that there is a large section of uneducated who do and this is increasing.

There is a sizable section of society who lives within their means. I am one among them. I have a good net worth but I still look for deals and am price conscious.

Everything above, if you can afford then go for it. I am looking for an Audi SUV for my wife, I will buy not new but the ones they are getting rid off to make way. May cost $50k, but i can afford. Why should I buy a 12k used?

But you are right, the types you mention also are in significant numbers.

BTW My phone is an iPhone 12 bought used on eBay. Some idiot sold it cheap to get the latest and I pounced. It's a damn phone after all.

Problem is woke upbringing and weak dads. I blame dads, not moms for this. Men are no longer men so kids are not afraid of them and don't respect dads.

Hagen95 said:

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BusterAg said:

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Hagen95 said:

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Tea Party said:

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Sims said:

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Cars also used to get you from point a to point b.

Now the car drives itself while you watch a movie with 7.1 surround and your heated massaging seat melts your cares away.

Maybe they need a lower end vehicle that accomplishes a task in a pragmatic way.

---

Bring back carbs and the only electronics in a vehicle is the AM radio.

I'm only somewhat joking as I would seriously entertain a bare bones vehicle that could survive an EMP .

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Horses are cheap these days.

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Um. No they are not.

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I asked my rancher father and yes, they are. I can get a free one, just don't check it's teeth.

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Be sure it doesn't take neigh for an answer.

Quote:

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Considering I typically keep cars for 10-15 years, if I could get 96 months at 0%, I'd do it in a heartbeat and you'd see me rolling a Denali.

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Ditto. Since 1989, I have had three vehicles in total. 1989 Mercedes. 2003 Trailblazer, 2017 Traverse. And the only reason I bought the Trailblazer was because we had recently purchased a lake house, that was off a dirt and gravel road and needed to haul stuff (including my Mom and her stuff) back and forth. My Mercedes was just too small. Needed the cargo room of the SUV.

I love, love, loved my Mercedes and didn't sell it quickly after I got the Trailblazer. But after several weeks of driving the Traiblazer, I had occasion to drive the Mercedes and suddenly it felt so low to the ground and so small. Finally sold it to my Mom's neighbor who had always liked it.

techno-ag said:

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https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/cars-were-once-a-financial-engine-of-america-s-middle-class-now-they-re-a-wealth-killer/ar-AA1tXWhC

Good article. Interview with people over at Dave Ramsey's podcast series. Average new car prices approaching $50k, many payments over $1k/mo. Used car averages close to $30k. Sucking up more and more income, now a trap more so than it ever was.

Government regs don't help of course, nor does the push for electrification.

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Govt regs are 40-50% of the cost increase
- safety features some needed some not
- fuel economy (high performance engines with turbos,etc)
- emissions