H1B Visa Misuse

4,659 Views | 64 Replies | Last: 10 days ago by infinity ag
infinity ag
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HollywoodBQ said:

Sea Speed said:

Any time you have to compete with Indians for a job it is going to depress the wages. It happens at my job in the shopping industry and whenever we ask about raises they just say that they've got a list of applicants a mile long. It's infuriating.
I'm sure autocorrect got you and changed shipping to shopping but it is funny to think that you're a professional shopper.

Well, companies have "Buyer" roles, so that is akin to "shopping"!

https://www.ziprecruiter.com/c/CLARK-Material-Handling-Company/Job/Jr.-Buyer-Aftermarket-Parts/-in-Flower-Mound,TX
Ag_of_08
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AG
It's really the great dilemma of our time, and we're honestly at the point it has to be addressed soon in my opinion.

Im not a fan of govt regulation in that sort of thing at all(Harris's price controls). Businesses are going to have to acknowledge it and figure it out soon though, or we're going to have a repeat of history and see a massive revolt/revolution. People tend to become violent when they're starving and watching relatives die.

Cromagnum
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AG
Even at half wages, they work harder than many millennials and Z
infinity ag
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Ag_of_08 said:

It's really the great dilemma of our time, and we're honestly at the point it has to be addressed soon in my opinion.

Im not a fan of govt regulation in that sort of thing at all(Harris's price controls). Businesses are going to have to acknowledge it and figure it out soon though, or we're going to have a repeat of history and see a massive revolt/revolution. People tend to become violent when they're starving and watching relatives die.



Don't just be for or against something for the sake of it. Think about the end goal and use any tool you need to get there.

Many people claim to love "free trade" but free trade does not exist anywhere. Other countries are ripping us off by getting access to our markets but they impose tariffs on us. Dems don't care. Trump, do something.
Ag_of_08
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AG
Tarrifs do nothing but hurt the people of the country imposing them.


The absolute insanity of promoting 20-30% cost hikes in the US that will hit the people whom CANNOT afford it is astounding. The Dems JUST lost power because everything became 20-30% more expensive in 2 years. The Republicans are racing to beat that mark with this nonsense.

Spare me the "temporary pain" nonsense as well... prices will rise, wages won't, and they'll never go back down..
HollywoodBQ
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AG
infinity ag said:

People from India seem to believe it is their God given right for jobs in the US.
This 100%

These days, there's really no reason to even bring them over.
Sea Speed
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AG
HollywoodBQ said:

infinity ag said:

People from India seem to believe it is their God given right for jobs in the US.
This 100%

These days, there's really no reason to even bring them over.


Agreed, but at least we aren't as bad as little India directly to the north of us.
Ags4DaWin
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Ag_of_08 said:

Tarrifs do nothing but hurt the people of the country imposing them.


The absolute insanity of promoting 20-30% cost hikes in the US that will hit the people whom CANNOT afford it is astounding. The Dems JUST lost power because everything became 20-30% more expensive in 2 years. The Republicans are racing to beat that mark with this nonsense.

Spare me the "temporary pain" nonsense as well... prices will rise, wages won't, and they'll never go back down..

This is the old argument Keynesians made for NAFTA and other one sided trade agreements.

Since then the blue collar middle class has been absolutely devastated. Pushing many people onto government welfare and costing taxpayers billions of dollars.

The bill always comes due. If the american economy doesn't have jobs for blue collar workers, then taxpayers pay for the welfare the people suited for blue collar work collect. Someone has to pay. I would rather pay 20% more for a refrigerator or a TV I buy every 5 years and have a stable diversified economy where I don't have to pay taxes foe 30% of the population to be on welfare.

Your argument has been proven wrong in the real world multiple times over.

Tariffs only hurt consumers because for 3 decades the US has offshore manufacturing to countries that use slave labor.

1) slave labor is wrong
2) America HAS to start producing some of its own again. Otherwise we put our own economy at risk for serious disruption.

COVID should have taught many of you yahoo's the truth of the second point.
revvie
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AG
Thunderstruck xx said:

revvie said:

BusterAg said:

I don't believe you.

What was the position?

What was the H1B wage?

What was the domestic wage?

How did you know the H1B wage?

How did you know the domestic wage?
The position?
Geologist/Geophysicist/Geological Engineer

What was the H1B wage?
$60/hour. Placed through an agency that was owned by a friend of one of the companies principals.

What was the domestic wage?
$125/hour plus incentives.

How did you know the H1B wage?
They told me.

How did you know the domestic wage?
Worked as independent contractor for 20+ years. Average hourly wages varied over time from 2000 until now. The wages quoted are in the time frame covered.

Degree requirements?
At least BS or equivalent with English language skills. May be others that I am unaware.

The individual was well liked by contemporaries and now is back in his home country as we speak


You pay an engineer $260k per year base? Are you hiring?
If you think that's ridiculous. At the same place a contract for an inhouse drilling engineer was emailed to me by mistake. It called for $300/hour, with a base of 2080 hours for twelve months. That is a base of $624,000 plus overtime provisions. This was when the oil business was nuts and experienced drilling engineers were enticed with 6-7 figure signing bonuses prorated over 2-3 years with startups. Most of these went bankrupt so I don't know how many people actually received their sign on bonuses. This particular company sold out to a blank check startup or else it would have been a bankruptcy filing for them as well.
Ag_of_08
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AG
Every protections tarrif that has been enacted has failed, stagnated the economy it was protecting, and driven inflation as badly or worse than keynesian economics has.

Neither work, both cause misery and devastate economies.

Whatever fantasy makes people believe manufacturing will return here, and our economy will balance, through tarrifs is going to put us in as bad a place as the socialist utopia the left promotes.
infinity ag
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Ags4DaWin said:

Ag_of_08 said:

Tarrifs do nothing but hurt the people of the country imposing them.


The absolute insanity of promoting 20-30% cost hikes in the US that will hit the people whom CANNOT afford it is astounding. The Dems JUST lost power because everything became 20-30% more expensive in 2 years. The Republicans are racing to beat that mark with this nonsense.

Spare me the "temporary pain" nonsense as well... prices will rise, wages won't, and they'll never go back down..

This is the old argument Keynesians made for NAFTA and other one sided trade agreements.

Since then the blue collar middle class has been absolutely devastated. Pushing many people onto government welfare and costing taxpayers billions of dollars.

The bill always comes due. If the american economy doesn't have jobs for blue collar workers, then taxpayers pay for the welfare the people suited for blue collar work collect. Someone has to pay. I would rather pay 20% more for a refrigerator or a TV I buy every 5 years and have a stable diversified economy where I don't have to pay taxes foe 30% of the population to be on welfare.

Your argument has been proven wrong in the real world multiple times over.

Tariffs only hurt consumers because for 3 decades the US has offshore manufacturing to countries that use slave labor.

1) slave labor is wrong
2) America HAS to start producing some of its own again. Otherwise we put our own economy at risk for serious disruption.

COVID should have taught many of you yahoo's the truth of the second point.

Ags4DaWin, I always love your posts!
infinity ag
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HollywoodBQ said:

infinity ag said:

People from India seem to believe it is their God given right for jobs in the US.
This 100%

These days, there's really no reason to even bring them over.

Dems are afraid of being called racists or xenophobic so they keep the gates open. I was talking to a few Dem voters last night and that was their argument.
Ags4DaWin
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Are you seriously going to use the same argument that Obama used 10 years ago and claim that people should just get used to a **** economy because manufacturing is never coming back? Trump proved that wrong.

Tarriffs alone are not the answer. But neither is a hyper specialized economy in the service and war industry.

Tarriffs plus incentives to increase automation and a decrease in onerous regulations 100% brings manufacturing back to the US. Chip makers WANTED to come back to the US til Biden scuttled it.

50% of people have an average IQ or below. 30% of people have an IQ of 90 or below and not suited to coding or high problem solving work.

You can't have a healthy economy when 30% of the population cannot find meaningful middle class employment.

You have a choice regarding what kind of society we have-

Healthy middle class which requires a diversified economy where blue collars workers can have a middle class lifestyle and low percent of the population on welfare.

Or high government spending on welfare, high taxes on the few producers, and a large percent of the population on the government teet because 30% of the population cannot find middle class work
infinity ag
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Cromagnum said:

Even at half wages, they work harder than many millennials and Z

That is not the point. USA for US citizens. People from India or Philippines have no right to anything here. No "American dream". They can have their own "Indian dream". You think Indians will tolerate an ocean of Nigerians descending on India taking up all jobs? No.

When US citizens, perfectly qualified, are struggling to find jobs (look at the tech layoffs), only a foolish country will import foreigners because the wages are low. Companies have some responsibility to the country. No one works in a vacuum. They exist because the Govt has reasonable taxes. Else they can go to India and open shop there. No one will care.
infinity ag
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Ags4DaWin said:

Are you seriously going to use the same argument that Obama used 10 years ago and claim that people should just get used to a **** economy because manufacturing is never coming back? Trump proved that wrong.

Tarriffs alone are not the answer. But neither is a hyper specialized economy in the service and war industry.

Tarriffs plus incentives to increase automation and a decrease in onerous regulations 100% brings manufacturing back to the US. Chip makers WANTED to come back to the US til Biden scuttled it.

50% of people have an average IQ or below. 30% of people have an IQ of 90 or below and not suited to coding or high problem solving work.

You can't have a healthy economy when 30% of the population cannot find meaningful middle class employment.

You have a choice regarding what kind of society we have-

Healthy middle class which requires a diversified economy where blue collars workers can have a middle class lifestyle and low percent of the population on welfare.


Or high government spending on welfare, high taxes on the few producers, and a large percent of the population on the government teet.

Another superb post.
The part I bolded is key.
infinity ag
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Ag_of_08 said:

Tarrifs do nothing but hurt the people of the country imposing them.


The absolute insanity of promoting 20-30% cost hikes in the US that will hit the people whom CANNOT afford it is astounding. The Dems JUST lost power because everything became 20-30% more expensive in 2 years. The Republicans are racing to beat that mark with this nonsense.

Spare me the "temporary pain" nonsense as well... prices will rise, wages won't, and they'll never go back down..

You are wrong and fallen prey to propaganda that has gotten us into this mess. Open your mind a big and rid it of dogmas and think for yourself logically.
Ag_of_08
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AG
The beauty of history, it's bot conjecture, just example after example of people doing the same thing, making the same argument, and failing in the same way.
Ag_of_08
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AG
I dont believe people will "get used" to an bad economy, nor than manufacturing cannot return.

I believe that sending 50-60%( the percentage living check to check) of the country into destitution through protectionist tarrifs, and stagnating innovation and growth through those tarrifs, is as bad now as it was in the 1850s,the 20s, 70s, and every other time it has been tried and proven to create an expensive and foolish bubble.

Im also a realist that knows the job market in the US must recover before we can put people under that strain. Stopping H1B visas, ironically, would be a step in the right direction. Deportation, tax credits to encourage repatriation ... good steps.

Something ive been researching a lot lately that would likely help is stopping foreign trucks operating in the US. The owner/operators are being thrown down the drain, and the mega carriers are consolidating and dying. Cut back on foreign trucks operating here, curtail some of the assanine government regs, and that industry might self correct and help other parts of the economy.

revvie
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AG
Ag_of_08 said:

Every protections tarrif that has been enacted has failed, stagnated the economy it was protecting, and driven inflation as badly or worse than keynesian economics has.

Neither work, both cause misery and devastate economies.

Whatever fantasy makes people believe manufacturing will return here, and our economy will balance, through tarrifs is going to put us in as bad a place as the socialist utopia the left promotes.
I have timber to sell and waiting on Trump to see what tariffs he imposes. Could be a windfall for our family.
Ag_of_08
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AG
I hope you're able to, and the escalating cost of housing doesn't lead to a slow down. Im assuming this is timber land you hold, at least it will not depreciate on you drastically, even in a down turn. Hard assets are likely to be the best hedge against what's coming
Ags4DaWin
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Ag_of_08 said:

I dont believe people will "get used" to an bad economy, nor than manufacturing cannot return.

I believe that sending 50-60%( the percentage living check to check) of the country into destitution through protectionist tarrifs, and stagnating innovation and growth through those tarrifs, is as bad now as it was in the 1850s,the 20s, 70s, and every other time it has been tried and proven to create an expensive and foolish bubble.

Im also a realist that knows the job market in the US must recover before we can put people under that strain. Stopping H1B visas, ironically, would be a step in the right direction. Deportation, tax credits to encourage repatriation ... good steps.

Something ive been researching a lot lately that would likely help is stopping foreign trucks operating in the US. The owner/operators are being thrown down the drain, and the mega carriers are consolidating and dying. Cut back on foreign trucks operating here, curtail some of the assanine government regs, and that industry might self correct and help other parts of the economy.




I don't disagree with some of this.

However it's not the job market that is bad.

It's the inflation.

I am not advocating tarriffs all at once.

You spend a year curtailing inflation and gearing up for good midterms.

You do this by cutting back on H1B Visas, massive illegal deportations, continuing with the tightening of the government budget, and reduction of government waste. Also you get rid of all of Biden's moratorium on federal oil and gas leases and fast track approval for pipelines, this creates jobs and reduces energy prices.

You also try to recapture some of the chip makers, etc who wanted to move manufacturing back to the US by axing the ridiculous DEI requirements Buden put into their incentives.

At 12 months in, you begin negotiations with countries who have massive tarriffs against the US.

at 20 months in you start levying the tariffs to those who refused to open up their countries to US products so as not to affect the midterm elections.

You continue decoupling from the Chinese slave labor force and levy tariffs on 2 kinds of corporations first

1) countries where they use slave labor to make products- I am looking at you Nike and Apple.
2) corporations based in countries with massive tariffs on US products.

The products people have struggling to buy right now are gas, rent, food, and energy.

Tariffs don't affect ANY of those 3 product categories.

Tackle those first and improve the pay for workers to bring wages in more alignment with inflation and that will give people enough breathing room for tariffs and people will be able to stomach it.

The big 3 food, rent, gas is what hurts the middle and lower class the most.

Electronics and other manufactured goods are what hurt the upper and wealthy classes the most.

Tariffs are going to affect the poor and Middle classes in a negligible way.

At this point noone cares about big screen tv's being 500 bucks when their grocery bill is twice that a month.

Once again.

All of your arguments about tariffs hurting the middle class are 2 decades behind the times and a 20th century argument that no longer applies because of how our economy has changed.

And no tariffs alone will not work but tariffs in concert with a comprehensive plan are a great additional tool to correct the fundamental issues that have plagued our economy ever since these one sided trade deals began.
Stat Monitor Repairman
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H1Bs are modern day share croppers.
McNasty
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AG
Even more than tech companies wanting low wage labor, the lion's share of h1b are claimed by Indian offshore companies (Wipro, Tata, L&T, etc.). These companies use the h1b employee to funnel as much work offshore as possible.

The biggest objection many have is that h1b is sold to the public as something different than reality.
Ag_of_08
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AG
If you think the job market is not killing off the middle class, or is not the problem, you're living with your head in the sand.

You accuse me of anachronistic thinking and living outside reality, but actually think pay will accelerate in the short term to cover current inflation, much less 20% tarrif costs? A 50% pay rate increase is NOT going to occur, period.

Some of y'all live in the same kind of utopian idealism that the keynesians do... but by all means, "bootstrap" people into poverty, refuse to work towards bringing work onshore again, and keep up the hope wages may suddenly rise without food and housing prices shooting up when they do.

I'm 99.9% i make significantly less than you do btw, I don't need a lecture on what is killing the bottom of the middle class.
aggie93
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AG
I've been in technical recruiting for 30 years and hired hundreds of H-1's. I have very rarely seen it be a salary issue. I have H-1's I hire that make serious money ($400k plus) because they have the right skills. Trying to underpay folks on visa generally doesn't work and will also get you in serious trouble. I do software and hardware engineers.

That said there is plenty of room for reform starting with a merit based system as opposed to the lottery. The volume of folks who come through the consulting agencies are also a problem and finding the loopholes that get abused.

Another problem is we aren't creating enough opportunities for kids to get into CS here really. At A&M Engineering is the hardest major to get into. Comp Sci is the most difficult major within ETAM to get into. Similar story at other schools. We have plenty of kids that want to do it but we aren't keeping the education pace to keep with demand.

Most H-1's get their BS in India or China and then come here for their Masters. Then they get a couple years on a work authorization trying to get someone to sponsor their H-1 and rolling the dice with the lottery. Colleges love having them because they pay full price or OOS.
"The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help."

Ronald Reagan
McKinney Ag69
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AG
Cromagnum said:

Even at half wages, they work harder than many millennials and Z


Yeah, but they smell like curry and they worship a million demon idols. . They don't share the Christian values/ethic our nation was founded on. You want that trade?
Ags4DaWin
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Current unemployment rate is 4.1%.

I don't disagree with the fact that part of the issue is the job market. However it is not an unemployment issue.

It is an inflation issue where current wages are dramatically lagging behind inflation.

You claim that tarriffs are a tax on the middle and lower class.

Inflation is a bigger tax and that has to be tackled first.

Placing tariffs on things that the middle and lower classes are not buying right now does not hurt them.

Once again, rent, food, gas, energy prices are what is hurting the middle class, not the cost of the latest IPhone.

You can tariff those products without ANY of it affecting the middle and lower class right now because NOONE has any money for it.

Noone in either of those demographics is buying luxury items ATM...credit cards have been maxed on groceries and gas.

So now is essentially the perfect time to tariff those things....

Because they are not being purchased in high amounts the producers of those products will feel it more.

Because the lower and middle classes are not purchasing those products they will not feel the pinch.

And if things get negotiated well, the tariffs may never come to fruition anyways.
Ag_of_08
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AG
First, that UE number is "adjusted", not a true metric.

Second, im aware inflation vs wages are an issue. Do you ACTUALLY believe that wages will shoot up and not cause inflation as companies scramble to maintain profit margins?

Third, why are the "tarrifs don't impact food" people not understanding that while the food itself may not be subject to tarrifs... EVRY.SINGLE.THING involved in the supply chain WILL be touched by them. Every piece of equipment, every grain bin...all of it gets hit. Food prices will increase, housing prices will increase. It's why tarrifs are so short sighted, they will always roll down hill.


The fantasy utopian nonsense has to stop.
infinity ag
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McNasty said:

Even more than tech companies wanting low wage labor, the lion's share of h1b are claimed by Indian offshore companies (Wipro, Tata, L&T, etc.). These companies use the h1b employee to funnel as much work offshore as possible.

The biggest objection many have is that h1b is sold to the public as something different than reality.

Yep. I have worked with these companies to see how low quality their workers are. They must be bribing some top US official in these companies and force these guys in. We were asked specifically to hire Tata and Cognizant and not other companies but to interview them for show.

H1B is a fraud on Americans. I am sad that so many foolish Americans fall for it and think it somehow is good for the economy.

It is good only if we pick the best and brightest. In reasonable numbers.
NOT bring in oceans of sub-standard low quality manual laborers (called coolies) and kill wages. That way you are driving smart and innovative Americans away from the field as they cannot survive with the depressed salaries. US companies are eventually ruined because the CEO get greedy on low quality work but destroyed the companies eventually (CEOs don't care as they are gone by then).

Result:
  • Greedy US Execs win.
  • Indian companies win.
  • America loses.
  • US middle class loses.

Wake up, people. This about this for a moment, don't just rely on "free market" propaganda from politicians.
infinity ag
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I think Trump should abolish H1B completely. Gone.

And start a new program from scratch based on 2024 situation. Not 1999 (we needed these guys back then for Y2K work and they stuck to us like leeches).
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