First Amendment auditors- attorney question.

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agsalaska
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1:15p, 7/20/24
AG
I have a first amendment attorney question.

I am addicted to 1st amendment auditors. And I will be the first to admit that most of them are a bunch of complete *******s and terrible human beings. However a some of them are very good. The ones that just sit back and let the people come to them are fantastic. Honor Your Oath is the best. iimpct is really good. And more.

Question is can government employees trespass a person from a public building without said person committing another crime? That is often the argument these guys make when they are working in a public building. In other words does a public employee working in a public building have the same abilities to trespass people as a private employee in a private business.

I have seen cops, DAs, State attorneys, etc. on these videos go both ways, though it seems to me that most of the attorneys tend to agree that they do not have the ability to trespass like, say, a Wal Mart manager. I have also seen auditors sue and win over these trespasses. But again I have seen others that are very adamant that they can and do.

Curious what the thought is here.

Thanks



EDIT TO ADD- I PROBABLY INCORRECTLY USED THE WORD TRESPASS. REMOVED IS PROBABLY A BETTER WORD.

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well_endowed_ag
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1:21p, 7/20/24
I'm not sure you know what "trespass" means. It doesn't mean "remove."
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agsalaska
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In reply to well_endowed_ag • 1:23p, 7/20/24
AG
well_endowed_ag said:
I'm not sure you know what "trespass" means. It doesn't mean "remove."
So I just read my entire OP and never used the word 'remove'

Do you have anything else to add? I tend to try to stick with the subject of OPs so if not that's cool.
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Jabin
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1:24p, 7/20/24
What the heck is "a first amendment auditor"?

ETA second question: If you didn't mean "remove" when you typed "trespass", what did you mean? Trespass makes no sense as you used it.
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agsalaska
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In reply to Jabin • 1:26p, 7/20/24
AG
Jabin said:
What the heck is "a first amendment auditor"?
They are people, generally jackasses, that film in public. The good ones just film and let stuff come to them. Some antagonize and try to get people, especially cops, to respond negatively.

Look up Honor Your Oath Civil Rights On Youtube. He is the best.


But that aside, question is really about anyone, not just them.
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well_endowed_ag
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In reply to agsalaska • 1:27p, 7/20/24
agsalaska said:
well_endowed_ag said:
I'm not sure you know what "trespass" means. It doesn't mean "remove."
So I just read my entire OP and never used the word 'remove'

Do you have anything else to add? I tend to try to stick with the subject of OPs so if not that's cool.

Yeah. It appears he's using "trespass" in place of what should be "remove," but it's not very clear, so I'm not sure what he's asking.
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lb3
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In reply to agsalaska • 1:30p, 7/20/24
AG
I like Sean at Long Island Audit.
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C@LAg
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1:31p, 7/20/24
most of these people are *******s. just because you can be an inconsiderate annoying idiot does not mean you should.

both public and private places should have the ability to remove loiters who are not there for a specific purpose or service.

i understand the whole "muh government, muh peoples' place" argument, but you are still being an asshat trying to antagonize and get a reaction so you can run to youtube and scream "muh oppression".
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fredfredunderscorefred
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In reply to agsalaska • 1:31p, 7/20/24
AG
agsalaska said:
well_endowed_ag said:
I'm not sure you know what "trespass" means. It doesn't mean "remove."
So I just read my entire OP and never used the word 'remove'

Do you have anything else to add? I tend to try to stick with the subject of OPs so if not that's cool.


Are you using trespass instead of remove? Or using trespass in the sense of "charge with trespassing"?
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Krazykat
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1:33p, 7/20/24
AG
1st Amendment auditors have too much time on their hands and need to get a life.

2nd Amendment Auditors... just because you can doesn't make it a good idea. It causes panic in the general population with all the recent active shooter events, plus it gives gun enthusiasts a bad name.
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agsalaska
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In reply to well_endowed_ag • 1:33p, 7/20/24
AG
well_endowed_ag said:
agsalaska said:
well_endowed_ag said:
I'm not sure you know what "trespass" means. It doesn't mean "remove."
So I just read my entire OP and never used the word 'remove'

Do you have anything else to add? I tend to try to stick with the subject of OPs so if not that's cool.

Yeah. It appears he's using "trespass" in place of what should be "remove," but it's not very clear, so I'm not sure what he's asking.
Ok Maybe my language is off. If 'remove' works better than ok. I spent my entire career in retail and we used the words interchangeably. You often hear it used interchangeably on the videos.

If Wal Mart wants to remove you they have a criminal trespass notice issued. If you violate that trespass, say you walk back in the next day, they will have you arrested for criminal trespassing. They don't generally need a reason though they could obviously get sued civilly. Question is can a public employee do the same thing for the same range of reasons that a private business has. And my language may still be a bit off. If removed works better than ok.


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Centerpole90
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1:34p, 7/20/24
AG
Have y'all seen the Aggie guy? I can't remember his name. He's been discussed on TA before.
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agsalaska
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In reply to fredfredunderscorefred • 1:35p, 7/20/24
AG
fredfredunderscorefred said:
agsalaska said:
well_endowed_ag said:
I'm not sure you know what "trespass" means. It doesn't mean "remove."
So I just read my entire OP and never used the word 'remove'

Do you have anything else to add? I tend to try to stick with the subject of OPs so if not that's cool.


Are you using trespass instead of remove? Or using trespass in the sense of "charge with trespassing"?
Yea maybe thats a better way to put it.
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lb3
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In reply to fredfredunderscorefred • 2:21p, 7/20/24
AG
fredfredunderscorefred said:
agsalaska said:
well_endowed_ag said:
I'm not sure you know what "trespass" means. It doesn't mean "remove."
So I just read my entire OP and never used the word 'remove'

Do you have anything else to add? I tend to try to stick with the subject of OPs so if not that's cool.


Are you using trespass instead of remove? Or using trespass in the sense of "charge with trespassing"?
In this context, 'to trespass' is used as a verb to describe a police officer's action to issue a trespass warning under threat of arrest if they do not leave the premises.
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agsalaska
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In reply to lb3 • 2:27p, 7/20/24
AG
Exactly. That is how I meant it.




But now that we have all clarified that, So far no real answers to the question though.



Also, I do like Long Island Audit. He is pretty good. But Jeff Gray with Honor Your Oath is the best. It is amazing how much **** that guy catches for sitting there with a sign that says God Bless the Homeless Vets. He has been arrested like 8 times for just standing there, on public property.
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Quincey P. Morris
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2:35p, 7/20/24
AG
First Amendment auditors are d***weeds. That said, the police response to them frequently gives them exactly the attention they want.
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Gator_2
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In reply to agsalaska • 2:39p, 7/20/24
AG
Im an attorney and love watching this kind of stuff, even though it's not my practice area.

I recommend Audit the Audit. Great job of actually breaking down applicable case law and statutes on various situations, and they aren't afraid to call out the Auditors when they're mistaken, or out of line. Lackluster is a popular channel too.

Easy come, easy go
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agsalaska
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In reply to Gator_2 • 2:57p, 7/20/24
AG
Audit the Audit is the channel that got me into it. I just randomly came across one of their videos maybe two years ago and lost an entire weekend of my life binge watching that channel. The amount of research that guy does is crazy.
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Bigballin
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3:01p, 7/20/24
AG
Didn't have a clue about folks doing this kind of "audit" until a few weeks ago until the YouTube recommended it.

I find it fascinating but also agree that a majority of these folks are jack wagons. However, I do find some of them show how much the 'law' will infringe if allowed when not doing anything criminal.
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No Spin Ag
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In reply to C@LAg • 3:05p, 7/20/24
C@LAg said:
most of these people are *******s. just because you can be an inconsiderate annoying idiot does not mean you should.

both public and private places should have the ability to remove loiters who are not there for a specific purpose or service.

i understand the whole "muh government, muh peoples' place" argument, but you are still being an asshat trying to antagonize and get a reaction so you can run to youtube and scream "muh oppression".
So much this.

New laws need to be enacted so that these idiots, regardless of what "side" can be put in their freaking place. Maybe a new form of "Stand Your Ground" law could allow individuals to defend themselves or their property when someone gets too close.
There are in fact two things, science and opinion; the former begets knowledge, the later ignorance. Hippocrates
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swampstander
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3:17p, 7/20/24
AG
I like Long Island and Honor Your Oath as well. I also like Bay Area Transparency but he does not post much anymore. I used to watch a guy and his son called Amagansett Press but I got tired of him calling everyone a "Karen". I know several women named Karen including my wife and they are all great people. He tries to come off as a nice caring guy but he is just an ass. There is a guy up here in New Hampshire called Press NH Now that is a real dooosh nozzle.
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eric76
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In reply to well_endowed_ag • 3:28p, 7/20/24
AG
well_endowed_ag said:
agsalaska said:
well_endowed_ag said:
I'm not sure you know what "trespass" means. It doesn't mean "remove."
So I just read my entire OP and never used the word 'remove'

Do you have anything else to add? I tend to try to stick with the subject of OPs so if not that's cool.

Yeah. It appears he's using "trespass" in place of what should be "remove," but it's not very clear, so I'm not sure what he's asking.
Sometimes, they say "have someone tresspassed" to mean something like "they have to leave and they have warning that they do not have permission to enter or be on the property and if they come back for any reason in the next year or so, they will be arrested for trespassing".
ef857002-e9da-4375-b80a-869a3518bb00@8shield.net
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agsalaska
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In reply to C@LAg • 3:31p, 7/20/24
AG
C@LAg said:
most of these people are *******s. just because you can be an inconsiderate annoying idiot does not mean you should.

both public and private places should have the ability to remove loiters who are not there for a specific purpose or service.

i understand the whole "muh government, muh peoples' place" argument, but you are still being an asshat trying to antagonize and get a reaction so you can run to youtube and scream "muh oppression".
So, to your second statement, filming in public is freedom of the press. That is a specific purpose and service and is NOT loitering. That is pretty well establish in case law Only the dumbest of police still try to charge people for that.

To the third statement I agree and that is generally not who I am talking about. Those guys are just pieces of ***** But that is not who the better ones are or what they do. The better ones, the best ones, do none of that. And they are generally pro law enforcement. They are anti Karen.


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agsalaska
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In reply to eric76 • 3:34p, 7/20/24
AG
This.

We are a page in and I still have not seen anyone take a crack at answering the question.

My guess is that the public employees do not have the same abilities as private employees. But I have seen it argued so many times both ways. Seems like when the attorneys get involved they always end up dropping any charges.
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agracer
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In reply to Gator_2 • 3:43p, 7/20/24
AG
On one of the Audit videos, a guys got pulled over and the cops told him to "open all your windows ". The guy in the card did, but all I could think was they're just searching your car and you letting them. also, I thought the SC ruled you only half to roll down your window enough to communicate. So, not even one window (usually drivers side) has to be down all the way? True??
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Gateman
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3:49p, 7/20/24
AG
I agree Honor Your Oath is the king of auditors and Long Island Audit is right up there these days. KULT News is another channel I like. Back in the day, News Now Houston was right up there with the best of them but I think he is in prison these days. Justin Pullman is the Aggie but not very active these days. There are definitely a lot total *********s out there also. Never ceases to amaze me how stupid some cops can be in dealing with these guys.
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eric76
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In reply to agsalaska • 3:53p, 7/20/24
AG
This is just a guess, but it seems likely that most such places would have signs posted and any employee who had seen the sign would generally be in the right to point it out to the violator.

As far as I'm concerned, if it is posted, then the idiot auditor has been placed on notice.
ef857002-e9da-4375-b80a-869a3518bb00@8shield.net
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agsalaska
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In reply to eric76 • 4:35p, 7/20/24
AG
eric76 said:
This is just a guess, but it seems likely that most such places would have signs posted and any employee who had seen the sign would generally be in the right to point it out to the violator.

As far as I'm concerned, if it is posted, then the idiot auditor has been placed on notice.
A sign that says what exactly? I guess I am not following.

One of their favorite saying, which is 100% true and something screws up bad cops, is policies are not laws. A public building can post all of the signs they want but if they are just policies they are unenforceable.
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agsalaska
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In reply to Gateman • 4:38p, 7/20/24
AG
News Now Houston was really good. But yea he ended up being a perv right?

KULT is really good too. But the one that I have been fully addicted too for the last week is iimpct media. They are relatively new, very pro police, and funny as hell. I spelled that correctly.
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2/10 SWB
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5:49p, 7/20/24
I've never watched any of these videos. I'm not 100% on the law on public property, but I can generally explain how it works on private property. On private property, if you are asked to leave the property by someone with authority over the property (the property owner or a manager), and you refuse to leave, you are trespassing at that moment. If the police are called, you can be charged with trespassing. I would assume the same would apply to federal property, with some limitations. Obviously, I can't walk into the CIA building and refuse to leave, but I can protest in a public place (Lincoln Memorial, for instance) as long as I'm not being disruptive. A lot of 1st Amendment cases revolve around a reasonableness standard.
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Bocephus
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6:14p, 7/20/24
AG
In Texas you just need to post a sign or paint a purple stripe on your trees and you are good. Just bc it is a public building does not mean the public shears has access to all parts of it (think of the capitol building).
TAMU ‘98 Ole Miss ‘21
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Aggie Jurist
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6:26p, 7/20/24
AG
I have been a fan of a number of these - Audit the Audit, Honor Your Oath, and one that left the net a couple of years ago - Photography is not a Crime.

Those of you saying these guys are jerks or worse seem to be OK with giving up your Constitutional rights. You have a right under the 1st Amendment to record places that are viewable from a public location - including police interactions. Yes, you can be asked to leave private property and be issued a trespass notice (the rules for this vary from state to state). However, if you are in what is considered a "traditional public forum" you are permitted to engage in speech activity (and yes, that includes soliciting).

I became interested in this area when my father was harassed in S. Texas one day. My dad is a photography and train enthusiast. He and my mom were driving in a small town when dad spotted some interesting rail cars next to a Valero refinery and pulled over. From the sidewalk he began taking pictures. Security guards demanded that he stop - and delete the photos. He refused. The police were summoned and the responding officer confronted my father and demanded he erase the images.

Flustered - dad did as he was ordered, then he called me. I contacted the Chief of Police, had a brief conversation, and followed that with a letter. My father received a formal apology from the Chief.

It should never have come to that. The police had no authority to confront my father. But police do this kind of thing ALL THE TIME. The auditors are doing the work to educate the public regarding their rights (and the police, regarding their duties). Honor your Oath has filed a number of suits - donating the settlements to veterans' charities. He is non-confrontational and respectful and he is making a difference.
LGB
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agsalaska
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In reply to Bocephus • 6:28p, 7/20/24
AG
To clarify,

I am talking about publicly accessible areas during normal business hours. Like the lobby of the county clerks office.

Would they have them same ability to remove an individual as I would off my own property?

The argument that seems to win is no they cannot. The county clerk can't just say F that Bocephus clown get him out of here. Now Hanks Deli shop. Sure. But from a publicly accessible area? I don't k ow about that.
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lb3
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In reply to Bocephus • 6:37p, 7/20/24
AG
Bocephus said:
In Texas you just need to post a sign or paint a purple stripe on your trees and you are good. Just bc it is a public building does not mean the public shears has access to all parts of it (think of the capitol building).
You can't walk onto the floor of the legislature but you can walk around the lobby and other publicly accessible areas. As the auditors like to say, your eyes can't trespass so if you're in a public area, you can record anything your eyes can see. The auditors claim that no policy or written notice can supersede that right.

That doesn't mean you can bring a ladder into the lobby then climb to the top of a screen meant to obstruct the view of a protected area for example.

Long Island Audit got a retaliatory ticket for window tint recently and has been on an entertaining crusade against Suffolk County police ever since. He's documenting the personal vehicles of every police officer in the county that is also in violation of window tinting or have illegal license plate covers. Fun series of videos where he walks around putting violation notices under all their windshield wipers.
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Sharpshooter
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6:46p, 7/20/24
AG
I can't believe this post has had such legs.
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