*** Official Trump Hush Money Trial Thread ***

605,317 Views | 6827 Replies | Last: 17 hrs ago by BMX Bandit
BMX Bandit
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Don't stop posting. I don't agree with your conclusions of law on lots of this, but I find your explaining facts of the case and legal issues before the court to be presented in an honest manner seeking a discussion.

[No need to insult other users in your commentary.-Staff] I've said numerous times this is a complete political hit job that never would have been brought against any other person. The facts alleged to make this a felony are as thin as pyhllo
WHOOP!'91
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Tramp96 said:

TXAggie2011 said:

TXAggie2011 said:

Tony Franklins Other Shoe said:

TXAggie2011 said:

And I think the conspiracy explanation above is pretty good. Lots of people get dinged for conspiracy to commit a crime even though they're not charged with that crime for some reason.
Is that like the get away driver even though he was never inside pulling the trigger or robbing the store?
In that universe, yes. I'm sure folks have her words like aid, abet, accessory, perjury, obstruction, tampering, etc.

We have a whole universe of crimes that relate to the "cover up."
To add to this, let's take Trump or the specific facts of this case out of the equation for a minute.

I own a business, and I donate $1 million bucks to a campaign, even though I know that's well above legal campaign limits. I do this, knowing I am breaking federal election law. My accountant hears about this, so he goes in makes up $1 million in business losses to explain where that $1 million went and hide that I broke campaign finance laws.

He's falsified business records to conceal my violation of law. If that case came down the pipe, this board wouldn't bat an eye if my accountant got dinged for a felony, I bet.

I think most would agree its a perfectly understandable and valid law if they take the emotion and politics out of it for a minute.

Whether the state can prove Trump himself intended to conceal something, that's another issue I've said I have questions about. But again, meeting the burden of proof is a whole different animal than the underlying legal elements of the crime.
Really bad analogy because this isn't remotely close to what happened.

Paying her to keep quiet with non-campaign funds isn't violating any campaign laws or any other laws for that matter. As Alan Derschowitz said...hush payments aren't against the law.

It got labeled legal fees. That's what they were. Now if it was labeled "campaign fee", then I think you would have a legitimate case, especially if it was paid using campaign dollars. But it wasn't.


And my understanding is that there isn't a limit to what you can donate to your own campaign, so there is no concept of above legal campaign limits concept here.
agAngeldad
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aggiehawg said:

PSA. I'll be late tomorrow. Can't be helped. Medical issues.

CNN/politics/Donald Trump/ live feed if someone wants to cover that. TIA.

Sorry.


Hope everything turns out ok. Look forward to your comments/post!
WHOOP!'91
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TXAggie2011 said:

Quote:

I don't know if the law says it has to be your crime you're covering up. You could be falsifying records to cover up a crime of a buddy of yours.
It can be your crime, it can be someone else's crime.

You just have to have the intent to commit, aid, or conceal a crime, whoever's crime it is.


Weak sauce. If this wasn't Trump, "no reasonable prosecutor would bring this case", to quote a former FBI director.
justcallmeharry
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S
aggiehawg said:

PSA. I'll be late tomorrow. Can't be helped. Medical issues.

CNN/politics/Donald Trump/ live feed if someone wants to cover that. TIA.

Sorry.
Hope all works out well.

Here is the CNN link:

https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/trump-hush-money-trial-05-09-24/index.html?tab=all
If you think I am a liberal, you are incorrect. Assume sarcasm on my part. Sorry if something I post has already been posted.
WHOOP!'91
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aggiehawg said:

Quote:

I'm optimistic that the entire jury sees right through this nonsense -- ESPECIALLY the two attorneys on the case -- but the recent sociopolitical stupidity I've witnessed and the fact that this is in Manhattan leaves me skeptical.
Yeah but the two attorneys can always be cowed by other jury members sayng a hung jury will threaten their families. One way or another.

Me? Were I on that jury? Come at me bro. You might kill me but I have no children and The Hubs has..ahem...fortifications..
And then there are lawyers who will break the law to "get Trump", even change FISA testimony, because they know if even they get caught, nothing will happen to them.
WHOOP!'91
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BMX Bandit said:

TXAggie2011 said:

Bryanisbest said:

TXAggie2011 said:

Bryanisbest said:

aggiehawg said:

Quote:

Bradley Smith is allowed to testify. The Court said he wouldn't be allowed to testify on matters of law to the jury (same thing happened in federal court) and that he lacked personal knowledge about the facts of this case so he would need to be limited to testifying about only certain things.
Which leads me to this question. Who is going to testify as to facts that would consitute a violation of federal election law? Cohen? A. he's disbarred. B. he cannot draw a legal conclusion. C. he was Trump's legal advisor at the time.

So Cohen will get on the stand and say Trump did these things pursuant to his own counsel? LOL.
Hawg, how is an alleged federal charge tried in a state court which has no federal jurisdiction? I've never seen that.
There is no federal charge.
A violation of "federal election law" is not a federal charge?
Trump's not charged with violating a federal law, no.

The limits of using predicate federal crimes has been well litigated over the years as to this particular law and others.

I don't even think Trump's team has argued New York simply cannot use federal law as a predicate crime simply because it is federal. They tried to get the federal crime thrown aside for much nerdier and complex reasons.


it's always great when f16 tells us how something is illegal or unconstitutional when the Trump lawyers aren't even making the claims in court.


I think lay people can't believe a jury can just assume you were trying to commit a crime when you've never been charged with that crime, much less found guilty of it.

That is some banana republic BS.

I guess Trump's lawyers should go through theoretical defenses of the theoretical crimes the prosecutor listed out.

All I can do as a lay person is shake my head at the obvious political persecution and double-standard "justice" system. Oh, and at how unashamed leftist are that they are the fascists they claim Trump would be.
NCNJ1217
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TXAggie2011 said:

No, but I was curious how many times and hours he'd spend asking the same question.
Ignore listed
Im Gipper
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aggiehawg said:

PSA. I'll be late tomorrow. Can't be helped. Medical issues.

CNN/politics/Donald Trump/ live feed if someone wants to cover that. TIA.

Sorry.
I got ya! Get well soon!

I'm Gipper
Gyles Marrett
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aggiehawg said:

PSA. I'll be late tomorrow. Can't be helped. Medical issues.

CNN/politics/Donald Trump/ live feed if someone wants to cover that. TIA.

Sorry.
But I thought we paid you the big bucks here to not have conflicts
Im Gipper
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HARD HITTING ANALYSIS!


Quote:

Former President Donald Trump is en route to the Manhattan courthouse to attend his criminal hush money trial.

I'm Gipper
bobbranco
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TXAggie2011 said:

Ag with kids said:

So...

Let's just assume the following as facts...

Trump paid Cohen, a lawyer, for having him get SD to sign an NDA.

An NDA is a legal document.

The attorney was performing a job he had been tasked with - a legal service.

So, explain to me how classifying these as "legal expenses" is in any way incorrect.

Is there a ledger entry that should chosen that said "illegal campaign contribution for legal expenses"?
An NDA is a contract. Payments made to another party per a contract aren't "legal fees." Legal fees are what you paid the lawyer to negotiate and draft the contract.

Mike Elko's salary isn't "legal fees" for A&M even though its a payment per a written contract negotiated and drafted by lawyers. Or, more analogous, Jimbo Fisher's payout isn't "legal fees" even though A&M's lawyers negotiated a contract for Jimbo to not coach.

Lets say you owned a trucking business and you had a contract to lease 50 trucks for $XXXX per month, which you're lawyer negotiated. Those monthly payments aren't legal fees, even though it was negotiated by a lawyer.

If at least some of the payments marked as legal fees weren't actually for legal services, but were actually for Stormy Daniels or to reimburse Cohen for paying Stormy Daniels, then they at least were making an accounting mistake, even if the state doesn't prove a crime.

(***With the obvious exception of payments to a lawyer per a contract for legal services would be legal fees.)

Your argument that Trump should be jailed for 80+ years "just because" the state can make false claims and a complicit jury will convict is ridiculous.
nortex97
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Amazing: (very fake news CNN live link).

Quote:

In "Stormy," a documentary that was released on Peacock in March, Daniels said that she agreed to accept the payment to protect her husband and daughter and so "that there would be a paper trail and money trail linking me to Donald Trump so that he could not have me killed."

"I was completely sure that I was gonna die," Daniels said in the documentary.

Prosecutors in New York have alleged that Trump sought to undermine the integrity of the 2016 election by suppressing negative information that would hurt his campaign. According to charging documents, Trump "repeatedly and fraudulently falsified New York business records to conceal criminal conduct that hid damaging information from the voting public during the 2016 presidential election."
She just got paid for a reality TV show about her 'mortal fear' of DJT having her killed, and now she is the star witness, along with felon michael Cohen. It isn't breaking news but it is…just so incredible. I hope they ask her about funds received for that peacock 'documentary.' And how exactly did Trump 'hide damaging information' in 2016? The Stormy story was everywhere, as were the claims he was a Putin agent etc. It was nonstop hyper-negative news that literally got him elected, and is driving his poll surge this time too.
Gyles Marrett
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TXAggie2011 said:

Ag with kids said:

So...

Let's just assume the following as facts...

Trump paid Cohen, a lawyer, for having him get SD to sign an NDA.

An NDA is a legal document.

The attorney was performing a job he had been tasked with - a legal service.

So, explain to me how classifying these as "legal expenses" is in any way incorrect.

Is there a ledger entry that should chosen that said "illegal campaign contribution for legal expenses"?
An NDA is a contract. Payments made to another party per a contract aren't "legal fees." Legal fees are what you paid the lawyer to negotiate and draft the contract.

Mike Elko's salary isn't "legal fees" for A&M even though its a payment per a written contract negotiated and drafted by lawyers. Or, more analogous, Jimbo Fisher's payout isn't "legal fees" even though A&M's lawyers negotiated a contract for Jimbo to not coach.

Lets say you owned a trucking business and you had a contract to lease 50 trucks for $XXXX per month, which you're lawyer negotiated. Those monthly payments aren't legal fees, even though it was negotiated by a lawyer.

If at least some of the payments marked as legal fees weren't actually for legal services, but were actually for Stormy Daniels or to reimburse Cohen for paying Stormy Daniels, then they at least were making an accounting mistake, even if the state doesn't prove a crime.

(***With the obvious exception of payments to a lawyer per a contract for legal services would be legal fees.)
Cohen paid Stormy for the NDA. Trump paid cohen for an invoice he sent. Your dot connected doesn't apply. Trump didn't "make payments to another party per a contract". It's already been testified what the invoice was. His invoice didn't say $ owed per contract of NDA. There's already been testimony to the outdated accounting system they used with few options for description in the book and that any payment to a lawer was recorded as legal fees. Trump didn't direct anyone to record it any which way which has also been testified to.

So again, how did Trump attempt to cover this up by that ledger recording when he didn't have anything to do with how she recorded it? She saw an invoice to a lawyer and recorded it as legal fees. Quite innocent. Is Trump supposed to be at fault for how Cohen sent the invoice?
Im Gipper
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Quote:

Trump has entered the courtroom ahead of today's proceedings.

Rick Scott is also here along with Boris Epshteyn and Alina Habba are also in the courtroom today

I'm Gipper
Ag with kids
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WHOOP!'91 said:

aggiehawg said:

Quote:

I'm optimistic that the entire jury sees right through this nonsense -- ESPECIALLY the two attorneys on the case -- but the recent sociopolitical stupidity I've witnessed and the fact that this is in Manhattan leaves me skeptical.
Yeah but the two attorneys can always be cowed by other jury members sayng a hung jury will threaten their families. One way or another.

Me? Were I on that jury? Come at me bro. You might kill me but I have no children and The Hubs has..ahem...fortifications..
And then there are lawyers who will break the law to "get Trump", even change FISA testimony, because they know if even they get caught, nothing will happen to them.
And don't forget the lawyers that would actually prosecute this case and those who also think it's perfectly valid.
Ag with kids
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nortex97 said:

Amazing: (very fake news CNN live link).

Quote:

In "Stormy," a documentary that was released on Peacock in March, Daniels said that she agreed to accept the payment to protect her husband and daughter and so "that there would be a paper trail and money trail linking me to Donald Trump so that he could not have me killed."

"I was completely sure that I was gonna die," Daniels said in the documentary.

Prosecutors in New York have alleged that Trump sought to undermine the integrity of the 2016 election by suppressing negative information that would hurt his campaign. According to charging documents, Trump "repeatedly and fraudulently falsified New York business records to conceal criminal conduct that hid damaging information from the voting public during the 2016 presidential election."
She just got paid for a reality TV show about her 'mortal fear' of DJT having her killed, and now she is the star witness, along with felon michael Cohen. It isn't breaking news but it is…just so incredible. I hope they ask her about funds received for that peacock 'documentary.' And how exactly did Trump 'hide damaging information' in 2016? The Stormy story was everywhere, as were the claims he was a Putin agent etc. It was nonstop hyper-negative news that literally got him elected, and is driving his poll surge this time too.
JFC...

Now Trump is someone who has people KILLED?

So, this story has gone from Trump had an affair, to Trump raped her, and now Trump was going to kill her.

Soon, we'll find out that Trump killed her puppy.
Im Gipper
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Quote:

The jury has entered the courtroom ahead of Stormy Daniels' continued cross-examination.

Trump lawyer Susan Necheles is at the podium to resume the cross-examination.
Quote:

Trump attorney Susan Necheles is showing some text messages on the screen in court. The text messages are between Gina Rodriguez, Stormy Daniels' former publicist, and Dylan Howard, the editor of the National Enquirer.

As she began to ask a question, Judge Juan Merchan asks the attorneys to approach the bench.
Quote:

Trump attorney Susan Necheles is asking Stormy Daniels if she was looking for money from Trump to sell her story.
"At this point, you were asking for money, you wanted money from President Trump?" Necheles asks.
"No," Daniels says.
Quote:

"I was asking to sell my story to publications to get the truth out," Daniels says.
"We were running out of time," Daniels says.

Quote:

Trump attorney Susan Necheles challenges Stormy Daniels that it was her choice to sign the nondisclosure agreement and broker a deal with Michael Cohen through her lawyer.
Daniels says, "I accepted an offer."
When Necheles challenges her again, Daniels says it wasn't "necessarily" her choice; she wanted to have a press conference, but she was running out of time, she says.

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Im Gipper
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Quote:

Trump attorney Susan Necheles is now asking Stormy Daniels about whether she recalls speaking to Slate Magazine about her affair.
Daniels confirms that she told Slate about the non-disclosure agreement with Cohen.
"He was my backup in case the non-disclosure fell through," Daniels says.
Quote:

"Numerous people wanted to publish the story," Daniels says with a small laugh.
Necheles suggests Daniels wanted money from Slate. She notes that Slate wasn't going to pay her for her story.
"I could have had anybody publish the story," Daniels says.
"But they weren't willing to give you money right?" Necheles asks.
"No," Daniels says.


Quote:

Judge Juan Merchan and attorneys from both sides are reviewing an audio recording from Keith Davidson who recorded conversations with Michael Cohen on April 4, 2018.


Quote:

Trump attorney Susan Necheles is giving Stormy Daniels with a document to refresh her memory.
Necheles asks if it's correct that she told the Slate reporter that as an "alternative to being paid" for her silence she wanted to be paid for her story.
"I don't remember saying that exactly, no," says Daniels.

Quote:

tormy Daniels maintains she took the nondisclosure agreement "to get my story protected by a paper trail so my family wouldn't get hurt when the story came out."
"I wanted the truth to be printed with some paper trail," she says.
Trump attorney Susan Necheles asks Daniels that even though she would have gotten her story out with Slate, she went with the NDA.
"This was a better alternative," Daniels says.
Necheles challenged her that there would've been a paper trail if she published her story instead of signing an NDA and accepting a settlement.
"With a target on my back and my family's," Daniels says in response.



Quote:

Trump is speaking with his attorney Todd Blanche while the other attorneys are at the bench.

He hasn't had any noticeable reaction to the testimony so far today.

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oldag00
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I think we heard testimony and possibly even saw evidence that Daniels signed the NDA as "Peggy Peterson", but that copy didn't include Trump's signature for "David Dennison".

Do we know that Trump actually ever signed the NDA?
Gyles Marrett
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Ag with kids said:

nortex97 said:

Amazing: (very fake news CNN live link).

Quote:

In "Stormy," a documentary that was released on Peacock in March, Daniels said that she agreed to accept the payment to protect her husband and daughter and so "that there would be a paper trail and money trail linking me to Donald Trump so that he could not have me killed."

"I was completely sure that I was gonna die," Daniels said in the documentary.

Prosecutors in New York have alleged that Trump sought to undermine the integrity of the 2016 election by suppressing negative information that would hurt his campaign. According to charging documents, Trump "repeatedly and fraudulently falsified New York business records to conceal criminal conduct that hid damaging information from the voting public during the 2016 presidential election."
She just got paid for a reality TV show about her 'mortal fear' of DJT having her killed, and now she is the star witness, along with felon michael Cohen. It isn't breaking news but it is…just so incredible. I hope they ask her about funds received for that peacock 'documentary.' And how exactly did Trump 'hide damaging information' in 2016? The Stormy story was everywhere, as were the claims he was a Putin agent etc. It was nonstop hyper-negative news that literally got him elected, and is driving his poll surge this time too.
JFC...

Now Trump is someone who has people KILLED?

So, this story has gone from Trump had an affair, to Trump raped her, and now Trump was going to kill her.

Soon, we'll find out that Trump killed her puppy.
When Stormy one day dies of old age, her listed cause of death will be DJT.
Im Gipper
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Quote:

Trump attorney Susan Necheles pulls up Stormy Daniels' settlement agreement from 2016.

Trump is leaning forward at the defense table and looking at the document on the screen in front of him.

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Gyles Marrett
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Im Gipper said:


Quote:

Trump attorney Susan Necheles is asking Stormy Daniels if she was looking for money from Trump to sell her story.
"At this point, you were asking for money, you wanted money from President Trump?" Necheles asks.
"No," Daniels says.
Quote:

"I was asking to sell my story to publications to get the truth out," Daniels says.
"We were running out of time," Daniels says.

Quote:

Trump attorney Susan Necheles challenges Stormy Daniels that it was her choice to sign the nondisclosure agreement and broker a deal with Michael Cohen through her lawyer.
Daniels says, "I accepted an offer."
When Necheles challenges her again, Daniels says it wasn't "necessarily" her choice; she wanted to have a press conference, but she was running out of time, she says.

If her goal was just telling her story and not money why is she so concerned about the timing?
Im Gipper
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Quote:

Trump attorney Susan Necheles is going through the lines of the confidentiality agreement.
"The parties are agreeing that this would be kept confidential thereafter," she asks.
"Right," Daniels says.
This is the agreement between David Dennison and Peggy Peterson, the pseudonyms used for Trump and Daniels.

Quote:

Trump attorney Susan Necheles is asking Stormy Daniels whether she understood this to be a matter negotiated by her lawyer and Michael Cohen.
"You understood this was a legal matter being settled with a legal contract, right?" Necheles asks.
"Yes," Daniels says after a pause.

Quote:

Trump's attorney is now moving her line of questioning back to the January 2018 Wall Street Journal article about Stormy Daniels' settlement agreement with Trump.
Daniels testifies that she signed a statement denying a sexual encounter with Trump two days earlier.
Trump attorney Susan Necheles asks Daniels to confirm she knew the article was coming out before it was published because the reporter reached out for comment.
Daniels says, "Keith Davidson said something was coming out."

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captkirk
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AG

Quote:

An NDA is a contract. Payments made to another party per a contract aren't "legal fees." Legal fees are what you paid the lawyer to negotiate and draft the contract.
Complete nonsense written by somebody that has no clue about how the world works
BMX Bandit
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captkirk said:


Quote:

An NDA is a contract. Payments made to another party per a contract aren't "legal fees." Legal fees are what you paid the lawyer to negotiate and draft the contract.
Complete nonsense written by somebody that has no clue about how the world works

every word of that is correct.

legal expenses are what you pay another party in a settlement, not legal fees
Im Gipper
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Quote:

Trump attorney Susan Necheles is reading a January 2018 statement from Stormy Daniels denying a sexual encounter with Trump.
Necheles reads, "Rumors that I had received hush money from Donald Trump are completely false."
Daniels replies, "Correct, because it wasn't a rumor, it was the truth."
Silly answer from Stormy.

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aezmvp
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We're talking about a ledger item that says legal fees. Paid to a lawyer to satisfy a contract. Legal expenses including payouts are literally a line item on the SEC reports that some companies that I've worked at file. It's a well known and accepted business practice. What planet are we even on?
Gyles Marrett
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BMX Bandit said:

captkirk said:


Quote:

An NDA is a contract. Payments made to another party per a contract aren't "legal fees." Legal fees are what you paid the lawyer to negotiate and draft the contract.
Complete nonsense written by somebody that has no clue about how the world works

every word of that is correct.

legal expenses are what you pay another party in a settlement, not legal fees
TDS: When you want Trump to go to jail because the word fees was used instead of expenses.

By definition a fee is an expense.

Again, please review the testimony about their accounting system and how it worked.
Im Gipper
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Quote:

Trump attorney Susan Necheles is now asking Stormy Daniels if she eventually wanted to publicly announce she had sex with Trump.
"No. Nobody would ever want to publicly say that. I wanted to publicly defend myself," Daniels testifies
"You wanted to make more money, right?" Necheles asks. "No, that's why I did 60 Minutes for free," Daniels responds.
Out of order. Sorry!!!


Quote:


On January 30, 2018, Stormy Daniels put out a second statement denying the sexual relationship with Donald Trump again.
"I didn't release it," Daniels says on the stand but acknowledges she signed it. This is the statement that Daniels says she signed her "Stormy Daniels" signature different than any other time previously.
Quote:

"You understood in 2018 that President Trump was denying this relationship? And he wanted you to deny it as well?" Trump attorney Susan Necheles asks.
Daniels says was pushed to sign the statement by Michael Cohen via Keith Davidson, adding, "I never spoke to Michael Cohen directly."
"(Trump) was not running for election at that point, right?" Necheles asks, noting there was no election in 2018. "He was already president, right? He was concerned about his family, right?"
"You understand that President Trump had a brand?" Necheles asks.
Laughing, Daniels says, "Brand? Yes."
Prosecutor Susan Hoffinger objected. The judge allowed Daniels to answer.


I'm Gipper
HTownAg98
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Im Gipper said:

Quote:

Trump has entered the courtroom ahead of today's proceedings.

Rick Scott is also here along with Boris Epshteyn and Alina Habba are also in the courtroom today


I wonder if Alina "fake it 'til you make it" Habba is going to try to enter something into evidence today.
Gyles Marrett
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Im Gipper said:

Quote:

Trump attorney Susan Necheles is reading a January 2018 statement from Stormy Daniels denying a sexual encounter with Trump.
Necheles reads, "Rumors that I had received hush money from Donald Trump are completely false."
Daniels replies, "Correct, because it wasn't a rumor, it was the truth."
Silly answer from Stormy.
Silly is an understatment. Might be the most idiotic answer I've heard.
BMX Bandit
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Quote:

TDS: When you want Trump to go to jail because the word fees was used instead of expenses.

By definition a fee is an expense.

Again, please review the testimony about their accounting system and how it worked.


STAFF: you deleted my post calling out those that just claim "TDS" every time they don't like something. look how quickly it showed up.

I don't want to Trump to go to jail.

in the legal worlds, fees and expenses are not the same thing. thats a fact. sorry that makes you mad.

I made no comment about that making Trump guilty of anything. the poster claiming it was "nonsense" was just wrong.
Gyles Marrett
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HTownAg98 said:

Im Gipper said:

Quote:

Trump has entered the courtroom ahead of today's proceedings.

Rick Scott is also here along with Boris Epshteyn and Alina Habba are also in the courtroom today


I wonder if Alina "fake it 'til you make it" Habba is going to try to enter something into evidence today.
Don't understand some peoples hate for her....
Im Gipper
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Quote:

Trump's attorney is continuing to ask Stormy Daniels questions about how much she benefited from going public with her story.
Attorney Susan Necheles asks Daniels to confirm whether after she gave a 60 Minutes interview for free, she got lots of publicity.
Daniels affirms, though she said it was "bad publicity."
"A ton of publicity," Necheles reiterates.
"Yes," Daniels replies.
Necheles continues, asking whether Daniels was able to negotiate a book contract for $800,000, which Daniels confirms.
Daniels also acknowledges that her then-lawyer Michael Avenatti arranged her appearances on CNN and The View, but says "he took everything else for himself."
"Now you have been paid almost $930,000, almost a million dollars for selling this story?" Necheles asks.

Quote:

Donald Trump has been leaning back in his chair, closing his eyes for much of the testimony so far

Shoutout to aggiehawg: Its really hard to post all this and keep up with the commentary from other posters!

I'm Gipper
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