Bubblez said:

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Fenrir said:

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Bubblez said:

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Fenrir said:

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Bubblez said:

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cecil77 said:

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The failures of government are directly tied to big business influence and tremendous lobbying efforts.

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So absent that influence government is noble and good, with only the best interests of the people as a motivation?

If you truly believe that I do feel pity for you.

Humans are flawed. Humans with more power have the ability to do more harm. Government is power. (period)

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And Big Oil, Big Tobacco, Big Any Industry, isn't power?

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I don't think anyone has claimed otherwise, you're arguing a strawman with this post. On the other hand you've been arguing that the failings of government lies solely at the feet of lobbying. That's an absurd concept that flies in the face of the history of all government forms. "Big business" didn't work with China to do gain of function research on a virus that it then let escape. "Big business" didn't shut down the world's economy, try to force people to isolate from each other for inhumanely long periods of time, devalue our currency by the mass printing of money, etc, etc, etc.

And that's just in our recent history. Should we go look at all the illegal human experiments our government has done in the last century? Government is and always has been every bad thing you fear about businesses and a lack of accountability.

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We're not China. And we have the ability to elect our government, not so much for Big Business unless you have the cash to buy them out entirely. Though, their lobbying efforts has made our ability to select representatives pretty much moot.

Big Business failings are enormous. Go look at any superfund site. Go back to the 2021 blackouts where Big Business had the ability to winterize their plants, or ensure well heads didn't freeze over, but they chose not to do so.

Meanwhile, hundreds of people died. And there would have been more if everyone still had 100W incandescent light bulbs.

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Most of our policies at the federal level are put into place by unelected bureaucrats. All the 3 letter agencies have taken over policy making and our legislation, judicial, and executive branches have allowed them to. There is no oversight of these people because all of our checks and balances have been neglected. Our representatives are moot because they have delegated their roles and responsibilities to unelected employees with no accountability. Lobbying is out of control but the idea that our government would function properly if they didn't exist is to deny basic human nature when accountability isn't present.

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And you are denying every basic human instinct if you don't think Big Business would rather dump a bunch of hazardous waste down a creek because it would be cheaper than treating it.

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Thing is, nobody has claimed that businesses are inherently ethical and will do what's best for all. You're the only one claiming that a subset of the population is inherently good (except for those darned businesses corrupting them). It's nonsensical.

annie88 said:

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Wow, I'm kind of disgusted by some of the comments on here, and it tells me that most of you have never had to deal with any kind of serious restriction in your lives.

Do better.

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Annie: I'm a conservative and muh freedoms

Also Annie: you have to cater to ADA at all costs, even if you lose your business and livelihood because I know people who live with restrictions and everyone should have to pay to accommodate

Of course we also have Annie: I believe in the Bible

And also
Annie: we have lesbians in our church who are active and who are Christians and we are going to stay United Methodist.

This is part of the problem with modern society. Folks always wanting to make exceptions and carve outs because of their own personal experience, but always wanting others to shoulder the burden or even blind themselves to the truth

Bubblez said:

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cecil77 said:

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Quote:

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The failures of government are directly tied to big business influence and tremendous lobbying efforts.

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So absent that influence government is noble and good, with only the best interests of the people as a motivation?

If you truly believe that I do feel pity for you.

Humans are flawed. Humans with more power have the ability to do more harm. Government is power. (period)

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And Big Oil, Big Tobacco, Big Any Industry, isn't power?

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Not at the point of a gun, it's not. With freely available information and transparency, consumers have the power, if they choose to use it.

And yes, ALL goverrnmental power devolves to the point of a gun. At al levels, all of it.

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And you are denying every basic human instinct if you don't think Big Business would rather dump a bunch of hazardous waste down a creek because it would be cheaper than treating it.

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That is a pitiful view of human being. "Big Business" is not an entity. It is humans, husbands, wives, parents, uncles, aunts, children, grandparents. Why do you think that all human morality can be always and in every case be purchased. Ironically, if it could be, using a coercive government would be the most efficient way to accomplish it.

Bubblez said:

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Helicopter Ben said:

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Bubblez said:

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Helicopter Ben said:

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Bubblez said:

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Would you pay your property tax bill if you could choose to simply opt out by paying whatever you amount you desired or nothing at all?

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Property tax is an oxymoron, so no I would not pay them. I don't agree with government schools so I consider that theft. Just like the vast majority of what the government wastes our hard earned money on, I would not pay my income taxes either. All of that money would have been far better utilized if left in the hands of those who earned it.

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Take a look how the big players in the free market fought tooth and nail so they can continue to pump lead into the atmosphere through the use of leaded gasoline decrying the costs involved. This goes to just about every environmental regulation that prevents a business from dumping whatever they want into the environment. Our air is much cleaner today because of this. None of this would have happened without the government forcing the hands of business to do it while time and time again business showed the only thing they care about is their bottom line, lead exposure be damned.

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Once again, you are asking us to prove a negative. You have no proof the government did this better than the free market. OTOH we have countless examples of destructive government actions.

So I'll ask again. If people are so untrustworthy to do good that we need government to force them…how do you reconcile that with the fact that government is run by FAR LESS trustworthy people?

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We know the free market fought all of these things, as they sure has heck had no plan of action to fix them.

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I have a response to this, but you keep avoiding the FAR more important question…. So I'll ask again. If people are so untrustworthy to do good that we need government to force them…how do you reconcile that with the fact that government is run by FAR LESS trustworthy people?

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That is not a fact at all. The issues with government are the incessant lobbying by private industry that do all they can to kill off any attempts to employ vital regulation. Eventually the tide ultimately turns. The facts haven't changed, the ability for private industry to dictate policy has. Even at that point, whether its Big Tobacco, or Big Oil in conjunction with other industry players, they all still fight against those regulations.

Its certainly not big business finally having an epiphany deciding to clean up their own acts. They are still forced to do so.

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Yes it is a fact. Unless for some delusional reason you don't agree with the Lord Acton quote that power corrupts. And your point about lobbying is backwards. What I'm saying is that the government shouldn't have the power to make lobbying efforts so lucrative. Big business only spends so much money on lobbying because they can get favorable treatment from THE GOVERNMENT. Such favorable treatment that would not otherwise be obtainable in the free market. And that spend is worth it to them because it stamps out competition, grants them subsidies, or otherwise puts them in a favorable position and so on. This is the exact opposite of free markets. Once again, you have completely dodged the question with a deflection answer.

Helicopter Ben said:

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Bubblez said:

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Helicopter Ben said:

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Bubblez said:

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Helicopter Ben said:

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Bubblez said:

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Would you pay your property tax bill if you could choose to simply opt out by paying whatever you amount you desired or nothing at all?

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Property tax is an oxymoron, so no I would not pay them. I don't agree with government schools so I consider that theft. Just like the vast majority of what the government wastes our hard earned money on, I would not pay my income taxes either. All of that money would have been far better utilized if left in the hands of those who earned it.

Quote:

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Take a look how the big players in the free market fought tooth and nail so they can continue to pump lead into the atmosphere through the use of leaded gasoline decrying the costs involved. This goes to just about every environmental regulation that prevents a business from dumping whatever they want into the environment. Our air is much cleaner today because of this. None of this would have happened without the government forcing the hands of business to do it while time and time again business showed the only thing they care about is their bottom line, lead exposure be damned.

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Once again, you are asking us to prove a negative. You have no proof the government did this better than the free market. OTOH we have countless examples of destructive government actions.

So I'll ask again. If people are so untrustworthy to do good that we need government to force them…how do you reconcile that with the fact that government is run by FAR LESS trustworthy people?

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We know the free market fought all of these things, as they sure has heck had no plan of action to fix them.

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I have a response to this, but you keep avoiding the FAR more important question…. So I'll ask again. If people are so untrustworthy to do good that we need government to force them…how do you reconcile that with the fact that government is run by FAR LESS trustworthy people?

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That is not a fact at all. The issues with government are the incessant lobbying by private industry that do all they can to kill off any attempts to employ vital regulation. Eventually the tide ultimately turns. The facts haven't changed, the ability for private industry to dictate policy has. Even at that point, whether its Big Tobacco, or Big Oil in conjunction with other industry players, they all still fight against those regulations.

Its certainly not big business finally having an epiphany deciding to clean up their own acts. They are still forced to do so.

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Yes it is a fact. Unless for some delusional reason you don't agree with the Lord Acton quote that power corrupts. And your point about lobbying is backwards. What I'm saying is that the government shouldn't have the power to make lobbying efforts so lucrative. Big business only spends so much money on lobbying because they can get favorable treatment from THE GOVERNMENT. Such favorable treatment that would not otherwise be obtainable in the free market. And that spend is worth it to them because it stamps out competition, grants them subsidies, or otherwise puts them in a favorable position and so on. This is the exact opposite of free markets. Once again, you have completely dodged the question with a deflection answer.

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Conservatives think progressives want some sort of utopia powered by unicorn farts. A world absent of a government with big business driven to decisions that are best for society as a whole rather than their profitability is about as unicorn fart as you can get. Hate to break it to you, but there is no such thing as free markets. Business will seek any and all opportunities to tilt the balance of power in their favor. And they are able to wield that influence all too frequently.

cecil77 said:

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Quote:

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And you are denying every basic human instinct if you don't think Big Business would rather dump a bunch of hazardous waste down a creek because it would be cheaper than treating it.

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That is a pitiful view of human being. "Big Business" is not an entity. It is humans, husbands, wives, parents, uncles, aunts, children, grandparents. Why do you think that all human morality can be always and in every case be purchased. Ironically, if it could be, using a coercive government would be the most efficient way to accomplish it.

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Its an accurate view of how things have played out time and time again. Why didn't those good human beings at Ford understand their wrongdoings with the Pinto when just a few dollars worth of design changes would have saved lives?

Most of the guys with the last name of "Patel" running a liquor/convenience store aren't going to do squat for a disabled person unless forced to.

You gonna make a man drive across town for some whiskey?

Bubblez said:

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Conservatives think progressives want some sort of utopia powered by unicorn farts. A world absent of a government with big business driven to decisions that are best for society as a whole rather than their profitability is about as unicorn fart as you can get. Hate to break it to you, but there is no such thing as free markets. Business will seek any and all opportunities to tilt the balance of power in their favor. And they are able to wield that influence all too frequently.

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A government run by fallible PEOPLE absent corruption is about as unicorn fart as you can get…FIFY

Let's ignore for a quick moment the good that individuals do. Individuals are vastly limited in the damage they can cause. Government OTOH, is not. They are granted monopoly power on the use of force. Nobody in a free market, whether they be big business or mom and pop, can cause the widespread destruction and misery that a government can. And again, these are PEOPLE. The same evil businessmen you are so quick to demonize are running said government. If you truly believe that it's only the best and brightest running government, then you are hopelessly delusional.

Bubblez said:

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Helicopter Ben said:

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Bubblez said:

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Helicopter Ben said:

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Bubblez said:

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Helicopter Ben said:

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Bubblez said:

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Would you pay your property tax bill if you could choose to simply opt out by paying whatever you amount you desired or nothing at all?

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Property tax is an oxymoron, so no I would not pay them. I don't agree with government schools so I consider that theft. Just like the vast majority of what the government wastes our hard earned money on, I would not pay my income taxes either. All of that money would have been far better utilized if left in the hands of those who earned it.

Quote:

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Take a look how the big players in the free market fought tooth and nail so they can continue to pump lead into the atmosphere through the use of leaded gasoline decrying the costs involved. This goes to just about every environmental regulation that prevents a business from dumping whatever they want into the environment. Our air is much cleaner today because of this. None of this would have happened without the government forcing the hands of business to do it while time and time again business showed the only thing they care about is their bottom line, lead exposure be damned.

---

Once again, you are asking us to prove a negative. You have no proof the government did this better than the free market. OTOH we have countless examples of destructive government actions.

So I'll ask again. If people are so untrustworthy to do good that we need government to force them…how do you reconcile that with the fact that government is run by FAR LESS trustworthy people?

---

We know the free market fought all of these things, as they sure has heck had no plan of action to fix them.

---

I have a response to this, but you keep avoiding the FAR more important question…. So I'll ask again. If people are so untrustworthy to do good that we need government to force them…how do you reconcile that with the fact that government is run by FAR LESS trustworthy people?

---

That is not a fact at all. The issues with government are the incessant lobbying by private industry that do all they can to kill off any attempts to employ vital regulation. Eventually the tide ultimately turns. The facts haven't changed, the ability for private industry to dictate policy has. Even at that point, whether its Big Tobacco, or Big Oil in conjunction with other industry players, they all still fight against those regulations.

Its certainly not big business finally having an epiphany deciding to clean up their own acts. They are still forced to do so.

---

Yes it is a fact. Unless for some delusional reason you don't agree with the Lord Acton quote that power corrupts. And your point about lobbying is backwards. What I'm saying is that the government shouldn't have the power to make lobbying efforts so lucrative. Big business only spends so much money on lobbying because they can get favorable treatment from THE GOVERNMENT. Such favorable treatment that would not otherwise be obtainable in the free market. And that spend is worth it to them because it stamps out competition, grants them subsidies, or otherwise puts them in a favorable position and so on. This is the exact opposite of free markets. Once again, you have completely dodged the question with a deflection answer.

---

Conservatives think progressives want some sort of utopia powered by unicorn farts. A world absent of a government with big business driven to decisions that are best for society as a whole rather than their profitability is about as unicorn fart as you can get. Hate to break it to you, but there is no such thing as free markets. Business will seek any and all opportunities to tilt the balance of power in their favor. And they are able to wield that influence all too frequently.

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What a rollercoaster this was. You are so close to figuring it out... So close...

What is that giant mammoth power lever that big business uses to crush small business? Is it called the market or is it called government?

GeorgiAg said:

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Most of the guys with the last name of "Patel" running a liquor/convenience store aren't going to do squat for a disabled person unless forced to.

You gonna make a man drive across town for some whiskey?

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Who is making them drive across town? It's been addressed that local communities can offer business incentives for disability access if they want to. There is absolutely no reason that this should be a federal issue.

Would Patel take up an offer from their community for some money or property tax incentives if they made their property disability accessible. I'd say absolutely some would.

Tea Party said:

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GeorgiAg said:

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Most of the guys with the last name of "Patel" running a liquor/convenience store aren't going to do squat for a disabled person unless forced to.

You gonna make a man drive across town for some whiskey?

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Who is making them drive across town? It's been addressed that local communities can offer business incentives for disability access if they want to. There is absolutely no reason that this should be a federal issue.

Would Patel take up an offer from their community for some money or property tax incentives if they made their property disability accessible. I'd say absolutely some would.

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This. The list of things that should be handled at the federal level is very, very short.

Yup, and the military is about 90% of it

ddp

GeorgiAg said:

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Most of the guys with the last name of "Patel" running a liquor/convenience store aren't going to do squat for a disabled person unless forced to.

You gonna make a man drive across town for some whiskey?

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Yes and your solution is to add enough government regulations so that the original and other whiskey stores owned by "Patel" (racist much) are unprofitable and close. Then people are stuck buying their liquor from the big box stores. You just love it when big government and big business can work in harmony.

shack009 said:

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Bubblez said:

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Helicopter Ben said:

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Bubblez said:

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Helicopter Ben said:

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Bubblez said:

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Helicopter Ben said:

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Bubblez said:

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Would you pay your property tax bill if you could choose to simply opt out by paying whatever you amount you desired or nothing at all?

---

Property tax is an oxymoron, so no I would not pay them. I don't agree with government schools so I consider that theft. Just like the vast majority of what the government wastes our hard earned money on, I would not pay my income taxes either. All of that money would have been far better utilized if left in the hands of those who earned it.

Quote:

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Take a look how the big players in the free market fought tooth and nail so they can continue to pump lead into the atmosphere through the use of leaded gasoline decrying the costs involved. This goes to just about every environmental regulation that prevents a business from dumping whatever they want into the environment. Our air is much cleaner today because of this. None of this would have happened without the government forcing the hands of business to do it while time and time again business showed the only thing they care about is their bottom line, lead exposure be damned.

---

Once again, you are asking us to prove a negative. You have no proof the government did this better than the free market. OTOH we have countless examples of destructive government actions.

So I'll ask again. If people are so untrustworthy to do good that we need government to force them…how do you reconcile that with the fact that government is run by FAR LESS trustworthy people?

---

We know the free market fought all of these things, as they sure has heck had no plan of action to fix them.

---

I have a response to this, but you keep avoiding the FAR more important question…. So I'll ask again. If people are so untrustworthy to do good that we need government to force them…how do you reconcile that with the fact that government is run by FAR LESS trustworthy people?

---

That is not a fact at all. The issues with government are the incessant lobbying by private industry that do all they can to kill off any attempts to employ vital regulation. Eventually the tide ultimately turns. The facts haven't changed, the ability for private industry to dictate policy has. Even at that point, whether its Big Tobacco, or Big Oil in conjunction with other industry players, they all still fight against those regulations.

Its certainly not big business finally having an epiphany deciding to clean up their own acts. They are still forced to do so.

---

Yes it is a fact. Unless for some delusional reason you don't agree with the Lord Acton quote that power corrupts. And your point about lobbying is backwards. What I'm saying is that the government shouldn't have the power to make lobbying efforts so lucrative. Big business only spends so much money on lobbying because they can get favorable treatment from THE GOVERNMENT. Such favorable treatment that would not otherwise be obtainable in the free market. And that spend is worth it to them because it stamps out competition, grants them subsidies, or otherwise puts them in a favorable position and so on. This is the exact opposite of free markets. Once again, you have completely dodged the question with a deflection answer.

---

Conservatives think progressives want some sort of utopia powered by unicorn farts. A world absent of a government with big business driven to decisions that are best for society as a whole rather than their profitability is about as unicorn fart as you can get. Hate to break it to you, but there is no such thing as free markets. Business will seek any and all opportunities to tilt the balance of power in their favor. And they are able to wield that influence all too frequently.

---

What a rollercoaster this was. You are so close to figuring it out... So close...

What is that giant mammoth power lever that big business uses to crush small business? Is it called the market or is it called government?

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Nah, he ain't close.