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And pasteurized milk cause calcium leakage (you lose calcium)

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It may, under certain conditions. But the loss is much less than the calcium you add by drinking milk.

And exactly how does raw milk not cause the same calcium loss?

Line Ate Member said:

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Hell there are instances where raw milk has had some breakthroughs with children with autism.

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Skeptical.

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Most of that stuff hasn't been pumped with preservatives and will probably last longer than a lot of the stuff in stores.

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Most milk does not contain preservatives.

And if you want milk to last a long time, look for ultra-pasteurized milk. That process uses higher temperatures, but shorter treatment times, and has a much longer shelf life.

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My guess is some big food company saw some of its market share decrease and noticed that ole Abe was doing really well for himself as an Amish Farmer. Got together with the representative that they finance in Congress who slipped a note to the dept of agriculture.

Big Government doing Big Government things.

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State government. Who claim that Ole Amos (not Abe) was responsible for a couple of listeria cases

CanyonAg77 said:

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Line Ate Member said:

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Hell there are instances where raw milk has had some breakthroughs with children with autism.

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Skeptical.

Quote:

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Most of that stuff hasn't been pumped with preservatives and will probably last longer than a lot of the stuff in stores.

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Most milk does not contain preservatives.

Quote:

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My guess is some big food company saw some of its market share decrease and noticed that ole Abe was doing really well for himself as an Amish Farmer. Got together with the representative that they finance in Congress who slipped a note to the dept of agriculture.

Big Government doing Big Government things.

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State government. Who claim that Ole Amos (not Abe) was responsible for a couple of listeria cases

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there were a lot more things on his shelf than just milk.

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Dad and I worked many dairies in Bailey County. A lot of the time, we would have a Nalgene bottle and get some milk from the chilled holding tank. That was raw unpasteurized milk. Not once have we ever had any of the bacteria that you mention.

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Thanks for the anecdotal evidence. I'm happy that you and your dad worked dairies that had high standards for cleanliness, storage, handling, and herd health.

I never claimed that raw milk always had bacteria or viruses. But it is a great medium for their growth, and pasteurizing helps remove any that slip through before public consumption.

Just because it's possible to have unprotected sex with women and not get an STD, doesn't mean that you're not safer wrapping it up.

e=mc2 said:

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Bring the hammer of God down on these Amish terrorists! This is priority number one for our government!

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Pennsylvania Department of Ag, not the Feds

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there were a lot more things on his shelf than just milk.

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Okay. Your point?

This has everything with the govt being Anti-Amish. They are Amishists.

CanyonAg77 said:

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Quote:

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Dad and I worked many dairies in Bailey County. A lot of the time, we would have a Nalgene bottle and get some milk from the chilled holding tank. That was raw unpasteurized milk. Not once have we ever had any of the bacteria that you mention.

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Thanks for the anecdotal evidence. I'm happy that you and your dad worked dairies that had high standards for cleanliness, storage, handling, and herd health.

I never claimed that raw milk always had bacteria or viruses. But it is a great medium for their growth, and pasteurizing helps remove any that slip through before public consumption.

Just because it's possible to have unprotected sex with women and not get an STD, doesn't mean that you're not safer wrapping it up.

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A better analogy would be this.

It's safer to cook and eat all of your meat well done to avoid any bacteria that may slip through. However, that's just gross and the taste and nutritional value is diminished, so I'd rather do medium rare.

The interior of meat is sterile, is it not? Which makes cooking it well done an exercise in futility, completely different than pasteurization.

And mine is an excellent analogy. You claimed I said all raw milk was contaminated. I did not. You were lucky that the milk you drank was clean.

In the occasional cases that the milk or the partner is not clean, the results can be devastating.

CanyonAg77 said:

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You claimed I said all raw milk was contaminated.

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I never made that claim. Go check it.

WestTexAg12 said:

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CanyonAg77 said:

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You claimed I said all raw milk was contaminated.

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I never made that claim. Go check it.

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You implied it by telling that you drank raw milk and were unharmed

Foreverconservative said:

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This sound like a load of crap from the PA Dept or AG

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"Food Safety laws are an unreasonable intrusion !!!!!!"

(until someone dies of botulism, at which point "Why didn't the government prevent this ?????")

Antoninus said:

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Foreverconservative said:

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This sound like a load of crap from the PA Dept or AG

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"Food Safety laws are an unreasonable intrusion !!!!!!"

(until someone dies of botulism, at which point "Why didn't the government prevent this ?????")

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I think you and I disagree with a lot, politically.

But there is some merit in your post.

The vast majority of people are pretty damn ignorant when it comes to food production. They are also highly swayed by their own preconceptions and biases.

So on a Freedom level, I think people should be free to buy raw milk, if they so desire. They should also bear the brunt, if those decisions go bad. Most Americans won't and will look for someone else to blame and sue.

As someone who lives close to dairies, has sold crops to dairies, knows at least a couple of Aggies in the business, has an Agronomy degree, including food safety courses. I will not buy raw milk for my family.

My opinion is that dairies work hard to provide a clean, safe product. I also know that working at them is Not Fun, and the majority of their workers are not U.S. natives. They may be lacking in education, along with having different standards of cleanliness. Mistakes happen.

Witness Blue Bell ice cream and Listeria.

If someone has the money and time to buy raw, and has convinced themselves it's a good choice, go for it. I would ask that you not give it to pregnant women or small children.

For the vast majority of consumers, you should take the extra step of pasteurization.

Full disclosure, I think "organic" is mostly a scam and a marketing buzzword. I actively avoid "organic" food. The one exception is milk. The normal milk in our store is pasteurized, and lasts a few weeks. The "organic" in our store is ultra-pasteurized (UP), and lasts a few months. Has zero to do with "organic", except that normal milk processers won't spend the extra money to ultra-pasteurize.

We use little milk, so we buy the "organic" UP.

https://tdfhonestfarming.com/blog/milk-options

B-1 83 said:

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Something doesn't add up. Of all the Amish communities that sell/share food, why this one?

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Probably selling unpasteurized milk.

(And I am only slightly joking)

(And I only read about half of the first page before making this reply. Looks like it has already been discussed.)

We have a dairy near San Antonio that sells unpasteurized milk. It sure does taste good. They charge about $10/gallon for it too. Can't afford to drink that every day.

Burdizzo said:

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B-1 83 said:

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Something doesn't add up. Of all the Amish communities that sell/share food, why this one?

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Probably selling unpasteurized milk.

(And I am only slightly joking)

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I thought it was posted on here that people got very ill from drinking the milk?

Yah. Hadn't read the entire thread before I replied

I think "Listeria" was the best Def Leppard album.

Tanya 93 said:

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Burdizzo said:

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B-1 83 said:

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Something doesn't add up. Of all the Amish communities that sell/share food, why this one?

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Probably selling unpasteurized milk.

(And I am only slightly joking)

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I thought it was posted on here that people got very ill from drinking the milk?

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That was the original claim, and it proved to be unsubstantiated

Years ago we had a farmer down the road from us who was kind of eccentric, and so was his wife. She decided for her birthday she wanted a milk bath because she heard it was good for her skin. She her husband called the dairy down the road and asked if he could buy enough milk for his his wife to take a bath. The dairyman asked, "Do you want it pasteurized?" The farmer replied, "No. I just need enough to cover her ass. She can splash it on her face if she needs it that high."

Several years ago, a dairy farm in Claremore, Oklahoma that was selling unpasteurized milk directly to visitors ran into issues when it was discovered that one of the cows had developed rabies.

Rabies vaccinations were reportedly offered to all who wanted them and many accepted.

That said, there is only one case suspected of rabies passed by milk and that involved a ewe and her lamb. The ewe got rabies and died and then the lamb. It was hypothesized that the lamb might have gotten rabies from the milk.

Anonymous Source said:

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I think "Listeria" was the best Def Leppard album.

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Great album, but the ice cream was not very popular.

UNCUT: Robert Barnes speaks outside the Lancaster County Courthouse. pic.twitter.com/FYsYJEB0cE

— The Lancaster Patriot (@TheLanPatriot) February 29, 2024

Foreverconservative said:

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UNCUT: Robert Barnes speaks outside the Lancaster County Courthouse. pic.twitter.com/FYsYJEB0cE

— The Lancaster Patriot (@TheLanPatriot) February 29, 2024

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Absolutist government overreach at its finest

Hearing finished in #AmosMiller case. Expert witness testified his food is safe. PDA admitted NO one EVER complained about Amos Miller's food, an extraordinary safety record. State demands no food be made without their permission. Now up to judge. Thanks to @RepThomasMassie &…

— Robert Barnes (@barnes_law) February 29, 2024

A responsible farmer and businessman taking care of his customers, gets punished by the State in an effort to control him and destroy his business.

What are they going to do next? Tell the Amish they can't have church services in their worship houses because they don't meet code?

Welcome to Pedo Pete's America, where Christians are hunted merely for holding to traditional ways of operating and living.

Anything to report, other than Amos Miller's attorney, trying the case in the media?

Sorry to inject facts into a discussion of Millers Magic Milk, but let's look at the facts, anyway.

First, you need to listen to the attorney's rant (Robert Barnes) posted above. If you didn't know that Miller's Magic Milk healed the sick and raised the dead, and made the little women go out of their head, take a listen and you'll learn "The Truth".

Despite what Barnes said in his rant, Miller can continue to feed his raw milk to his family. He can't sell, at least until the court case is settled, and that part of the injunction holds.

And regardless of what you may think of the federal government, can we keep in mind that this is a State issue, in particular the Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture. Miller has already crossed the federal government and lost, more about that later.

This case was brought by the PA Dept Ag because they claim Miller's milk was contaminated. That is their role and their right.

https://lancasteronline.com/news/local/prompted-by-reports-of-foodborne-illness-pa-agriculture-dept-conducted-search-at-amos-miller-farm/article_2349fb14-ab33-11ee-a3fe-37f92d33e0a9.html

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The Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture said it executed a search warrant Thursday (Jan 4) at an Upper Leacock Township farm as part of an investigation into two food-borne illness cases...

The Agriculture Department's statement said it was notified by public health officials in New York and Michigan about illnesses reported in underage individuals who consumed raw eggnog and other raw dairy products from Miller Organic Farm. Both states said tests were positive for Shiga toxin producing E.Coli.

The department said the search warrant executed Thursday at Miller's farm "sought, among other things, illegal raw milk and raw milk products, including eggnog."

The agency said it would not comment further on an ongoing investigation, adding only, "Miller has never licensed his retail operation."

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Miller wants to sell raw milk in Pennsylvania. You can legally do that. You do have to obtain a permit. Miller has refused to obtain a permit.

Miller also sells raw milk across state lines. He uses the fig leaf of only selling to "members" of his buyers club, claiming that member sales aren't subject to federal interstate commerce laws. The Feds disagree.

Miller has been at odds with the feds, in a completely separate issue) since 2016, when the feds say his milk contained listeria, which sickened people.

Frankly, the guy is a nut, and so is his attorney. I'll detail some of the wackiness in following posts.

So back in 2016, Miller got crossways when people got sick from Listeria in his products. He insisted on selling raw milk across state lines, which the federal government does not allow.

From March 2022

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A month ago, a federal judge appointed an expert to work with Upper Leacock farmer Amos Miller to make sure he complied with food safety laws and court orders...


Three times, the expert visited Miller's Organic Farm, but he never was able to inspect it, despite a court order.

The first time...(the inspector) said an employee told him Miller wasn't there and refused him entrance. Even so, he said he was able to see workers packaging meat and poultry, which isn't permitted until Miller is in compliance.

On a March 4 visit, Lapsley said Miller handed him a note that read, "What are the compelling public interests to be here? Please respond by paper."...

And so on Wednesday afternoon Miller...dialed in to a status conference call with the judge for a course-correction....

Miller tried to ask the judge if he read a recent filing he made. The largely unintelligible filing espoused "sovereign citizen" rhetoric.



Miller's attorney, Steven Lafuente, of Dallas, Texas, said he was "at my wits' end" trying to reason with Miller.


Note: Lafuente is no longer representing MIller


Miller's first came to the attention of federal authorities in 2016, when the Food and Drug Administration said it identified Listeria in samples of Miller's raw milk; the agency found the Listeria to be genetically similar to the bacteria found in two people who developed listeriosis one of whom died after consuming raw milk.

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https://lancasteronline.com/news/local/lancaster-farmer-agrees-again-to-follow-court-order-after-refusing-to-allow-food-safety-expert/article_dc563262-9feb-11ec-9847-eb35032cf6e9.html

In January 2023

Quote:

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Miller, who got in trouble by failing to comply with federal food safety rules, paid $30,000 to the U.S. District Court in Philadelphia by a Dec. 23 deadline set under a consent decree reached in mid-December, according to his attorney.

For much of last year, Miller and the government were in a standoff, with Miller refusing to follow through on previous agreements reached under a federal judge's supervision....


The payment would seem to signal Miller's willingness to comply with food safety laws, which he and the federal government have been at odds over for years.

In summer 2021, U.S. District Judge Edward G. Smith found Miller in civil contempt for failing to abide by an April 2020 agreement concerning food safety compliance.

And though Miller had agreed to work with a food safety expert appointed by Smith, Miller at times did not cooperate. He also sought to pursue a "sovereign citizen" strategy to thwart the government's efforts to get him to comply...

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For those on what Texas Law is.

In Texas Raw milk may be sold in Texas direction from the "point of production" directly to the consumer so long as the seller has obtained the required Retail Milk Permit

January 2024

https://lancasteronline.com/news/local/prompted-by-reports-of-foodborne-illness-pa-agriculture-dept-conducted-search-at-amos-miller-farm/article_2349fb14-ab33-11ee-a3fe-37f92d33e0a9.html

Quote:

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The Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture said it executed a search warrant Thursday at an Upper Leacock Township farm as part of an investigation into two food-borne illness cases.

The announcement came hours after two state police vehicles and vehicles belonging to Agriculture Department were seen Thursday afternoon at property owned by an Amish farmer who has been involved in yearslong litigation with the federal government over food and meat inspection and health safety guidelines.

Note: Yes, he's been fighting the feds. But the current case is with the State of Pennsylvania

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Feb 28, 2024

https://lancasteronline.com/news/local/amos-millers-attorneys-accuse-pa-ag-department-of-lying-in-its-effort-to-shut-down/article_24fa69da-d662-11ee-b154-13edacf5fc7c.html

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Attorneys for Miller and the Pennsylvania Attorney General's Office will be in Lancaster County Court Thursday over the state Department of Agriculture's effort to stop him from producing and selling raw milk and other products while its lawsuit against him plays out.

Pennsylvania allows raw milk sales, but requires a permit. Miller does not have one. Federal law requires that milk shipped between states be pasteurized.,,,

One person wrote that Miller's raw butter helped heal a chipped tooth. Others credited his raw milk with improving or healing a range of health conditions, from autism to restless leg syndrome to depression and infertility....

See why I call it Miller's Magic Milk?


Appeals for donations to support Miller, either to offset business losses or cover legal fees, have raked in hundreds of thousands of dollars over the years. The most recent appeal, created after the January raid, has raised more than $250,000 as of Wednesday evening. More than 3,200 people donated, with one anonymous donor topping out at $7,777....

Miller has a history of opposing state and federal food safety regulations dating back at least a half-dozen years. He has at times portrayed himself as a "sovereign citizen."

Sovereign citizen adherents believe in the legally baseless assertion that individuals, and not courts or lawmakers, can decide what laws to follow.

Miller has also long maintained that he does not sell to the public, but rather, to members of his farm's "private membership association" and is therefore exempt from government regulations.

The federal government sued Miller in 2019 in part over that erroneous contention. That case concerned federal meat inspection rules.

But the parties resolved the dispute by early 2023, with Miller paying fines and costs of about $85,000. The federal court docket for Miller's case shows it was closed in August, though a consent decree remains in effect.

That decree requires him to follow state regulations.

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BurnetAggie99 said:

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For those on what Texas Law is.

In Texas Raw milk may be sold in Texas direction from the "point of production" directly to the consumer so long as the seller has obtained the required Retail Milk Permit

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From page 2 of this same thread

https://rawmilkfortexas.com/

claim on their web site

Quote:

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Quote:
Current Texas Law

As of May 14, 2021 farmers may now deliver raw milk to the consumer! This is a long overdue and exciting change brought about by the relentless work of the Farm and Ranch Freedom Alliance.

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Quote:

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A responsible farmer and businessman

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Objection, your honor. Assumes facts not in evidence, and even assumes facts in contradiction to published reports about Miller.

Major win today for #AmosMiller the #Amish farmer. Court agreed to modify injunction so that it only applies within the state of Pennsylvania removing the ban on sales to customers outside state. Thanks to all who supported Amos & thanks to @RepThomasMassie & @RobertKennedyJr

— Robert Barnes (@barnes_law) March 20, 2024

Fighting the FDA is all fun and games, until listeria and botulism show up.

i'm all for letting people eat and drink whatever the heck they want, so long as they are absolutely barred from suing anyone over it.