CanyonAg77 said:

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IIRC, this is about someone who was selling raw milk, Being Amish has nothing to do with the state's objection.

Raw, unpasteurized milk, is a great source of e.coli and brucellosis, the former can kill you, the latter can cause spontaneous abortions and years-long health problems..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brucellosis

IMO, you are foolish to consume raw milk.

That should be balanced with the freedom we have in this country to be a fool, if you wish. And in the list of Terrible Things happening in our country right now, this seems to be pretty low level concern.

Unless the laws have changed in Texas, it's also illegal to sell unpasteurized milk here, as well, and I suspect the Texas Department of Health would shut you down.

However, it is not illegal to drink raw milk from your own cow. A local dairy at one time (don't know if they still do) skirted the regulation by selling shares of their cows. If you bought a share of a cow, you could collect some quantity of raw milk from them every week, legally. Because you "owned" the cow.

The Aggie running the dairy, told me his customers were from two groups: Youngsters who were into "raw" and "natural" foods, and senior citizens, who had grown up on raw milk, and preferred the taste.

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What we were allowed to read mentioned "thousands of dollars worth of food seized". Was it all raw milk and raw milk products? Hard to tell.

CanyonAg77 said:

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MemphisAg1 said:

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Need more info.

If you're producing strictly for yourself, government should stay out of it.

If you're selling to others, that's a different story.

There are unique situations like the Amish that provide for their community. They don't ask for government assistance, and the government needs to stay out of their business.

Edit: government needs to stay out of local farmers markets too. And local lemonade stands. I guess the key word is "local."

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He sells nationwide via a web site. This is not about attacking an Amish community providing for their own.

https://amosmillerorganicfarm.com/?v=1d20b5ff1ee9

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Fair point. If he's distributing nationwide, I don't see how he should be exempt from food safety requirements of similar producers.

B-1 83 said:

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CanyonAg77 said:

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IIRC, this is about someone who was selling raw milk, Being Amish has nothing to do with the state's objection.

Raw, unpasteurized milk, is a great source of e.coli and brucellosis, the former can kill you, the latter can cause spontaneous abortions and years-long health problems..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brucellosis

IMO, you are foolish to consume raw milk.

That should be balanced with the freedom we have in this country to be a fool, if you wish. And in the list of Terrible Things happening in our country right now, this seems to be pretty low level concern.

Unless the laws have changed in Texas, it's also illegal to sell unpasteurized milk here, as well, and I suspect the Texas Department of Health would shut you down.

However, it is not illegal to drink raw milk from your own cow. A local dairy at one time (don't know if they still do) skirted the regulation by selling shares of their cows. If you bought a share of a cow, you could collect some quantity of raw milk from them every week, legally. Because you "owned" the cow.

The Aggie running the dairy, told me his customers were from two groups: Youngsters who were into "raw" and "natural" foods, and senior citizens, who had grown up on raw milk, and preferred the taste.

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What we were allowed to read mentioned "thousands of dollars worth of food seized". Was it all raw milk and raw milk products? Hard to tell.

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Did you watch the video I posted in the OP?

Mostly Milk Cheese butter creams Ice cream, etc, and there were some dry goods and what looked like stuff put up in mason jars. But Dairy is his biggest stock.

I showed Amos where he was lacking in law and how he didn’t get his PMA work done correctly, causing him to struggle and he could have gotten knowledge and wisdom to defend his PMA that he got from a gentleman who died, he just didn’t slow down and take time to get with me

— DavidJose (@RealDaveCares4u) February 26, 2024

Foreverconservative said:

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CanyonAg77 said:

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I read his web site a bit, it appears that they are trying to skirt the regulations by selling to "members only", sort of like our local dairy who sold "shares" of cows.

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Which legally makes it a Co-Op.

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Co-ops are not quite the same as selling to members only, but disregarding that, what is your point?

I'm not aware that co-ops are exempt from regulations.

Quote:

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Mostly Milk Cheese butter creams Ice cream, etc,

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Milk products are pasteurized in the US for good reasons. Is it possible to produce raw milk safely?

Yes, but it ain't easy. And it's pretty terrible when it fails.

Quote:

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Raw milk is...legal to sell in Texas.

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Looks like that change happened in 2021

Quote:

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safe, awesome, healthy, and

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Don't really agree, but not going to debate . I've acknowledged it's possible to be safe, and laid out the possible hazards.

Quote:

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people who are lactose intolerant can drink it

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When you start throwing out nonsense like that, you really hurt your argument.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3948760/

Quote:

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Raw milk failed to reduce lactose malabsorption or lactose intolerance symptoms compared with pasteurized milk among adults positive for lactose malabsorption. These results do not support widespread anecdotal claims that raw milk reduces the symptoms of lactose intolerance.

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Co-ops are producers and user owned businesses that are controlled by and operate for the benefit of their members, rather than outside investors or retail sales. Kinda like opening a "private" club to serve booze in a dry area, you buy a annual membership and drink away.

PA elected town fool Fedderman. Dumb ass government *****s need to be castrated. The problem is I can't get past those modern efficient electric fixtures lighting up his Amish farm food.

Foreverconservative said:

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Co-ops are producers and user owned businesses that are controlled by and operate for the benefit of their members, rather than outside investors or retail sales. Kinda like opening a "private" club to serve booze in a dry area, you buy a annual membership and drink away.

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I've been a member of several co-ops and one the boards of a couple.

We still had to follow the rules.

It is nothing like a private club.

Quote:

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Is there a government agency that you WILL NOT defend like your sister's virginity?

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Exactly how can you be on the politics board this long, and be this ignorant?

Not to mention the post you quoted had zero to do with the government

CanyonAg77 said:

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Quote:

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Is there a government agency that you WILL NOT defend like your sister's virginity?

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Exactly how can you be on the politics board this long, and be this ignorant?

Not to mention the post you quoted had zero to do with the government

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What? No sister? My mistake Cousin perhaps

CanyonAg77 said:

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Foreverconservative said:

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Co-ops are producers and user owned businesses that are controlled by and operate for the benefit of their members, rather than outside investors or retail sales. Kinda like opening a "private" club to serve booze in a dry area, you buy a annual membership and drink away.

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I've been a member of several co-ops and one the boards of a couple.

We still had to follow the rules.

It is nothing like a private club.

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And that's the legal argument, PA Dept Ag is trying to enforce retail food laws at a Farm. Pennsylvania's safe food laws start at the retail shelf, not the farmer's fridge. Pure Food Laws, 1915 WL 5059 (Pa.Att'y Gen. Nov. 19, 1915).

So, you're admitting you have no facts to bring, and are simply resorting to personal attacks?

It's 11pm in Virginia, quit posting while drinking and go to bed. You'll regret being an ignorant ass in the morning when you sober up.

CanyonAg77 said:

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So, you're admitting you have no facts to bring, and are simply resorting to personal attacks?

It's 11pm in Virginia, quit posting while drinking and go to bed. You'll regret being an ignorant ass in the morning when you sober up.

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I don't drink smart guy never have.

CanyonAg77 said:

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Quote:

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Raw milk is...legal to sell in Texas.

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Looks like that change happened in 2021

Quote:

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safe, awesome, healthy, and

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Don't really agree, but not going to debate . I've acknowledged it's possible to be safe, and laid out the possible hazards.

Quote:

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people who are lactose intolerant can drink it

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When you start throwing out nonsense like that, you really hurt your argument.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3948760/

Quote:

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Raw milk failed to reduce lactose malabsorption or lactose intolerance symptoms compared with pasteurized milk among adults positive for lactose malabsorption. These results do not support widespread anecdotal claims that raw milk reduces the symptoms of lactose intolerance.

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What change was made in 2021? I've bought raw milk for well over 10 years now, but if it's for more freedom, I'll take it.
As far as safety, I'd rather drink it than pasteurized milk from factory farms. Go check out a raw dairy farm, they're awesome. The cows are healthy and the milk is delicious, and many people with lactose intolerance can drink it, regardless of a government study. I'm sure I won't change your mind, but you should seriously check out a local raw dairy farm. It's dairy done the way it should be.

MemphisAg1 said:

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Need more info.

If you're producing strictly for yourself, government should stay out of it.

If you're selling to others, that's a different story.

There are unique situations like the Amish that provide for their community. They don't ask for government assistance, and the government needs to stay out of their business.

Edit: government needs to stay out of local farmers markets too. And local lemonade stands. I guess the key word is "local."

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This was being sold as part of a business. Products were linked to at least 2 E. coli outbreaks out of state.

Foreverconservative said:

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CanyonAg77 said:

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Foreverconservative said:

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Co-ops are producers and user owned businesses that are controlled by and operate for the benefit of their members, rather than outside investors or retail sales. Kinda like opening a "private" club to serve booze in a dry area, you buy a annual membership and drink away.

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I've been a member of several co-ops and one the boards of a couple.

We still had to follow the rules.

It is nothing like a private club.

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And that's the legal argument, PA Dept Ag is trying to enforce retail food laws at a Farm. Pennsylvania's safe food laws start at the retail shelf, not the farmer's fridge. Pure Food Laws, 1915 WL 5059 (Pa.Att'y Gen. Nov. 19, 1915).

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Newsflash, this is not, "at a farm." The business model may be a "club" type requiring membership, but it is NOT a co-op. No one owns any part of the farm or is entitled to any part of its production or profits through membership. Membership merely entitles you to buy from the farm, which is is no different than Costco's or Sam's Club's membership model. They are certainly considered the retail shelf for all of their products, despite owning all aspects of production from farm to shelf for many of them, and this farm should be, too.

ABATTBQ11 said:

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Foreverconservative said:

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CanyonAg77 said:

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Foreverconservative said:

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Co-ops are producers and user owned businesses that are controlled by and operate for the benefit of their members, rather than outside investors or retail sales. Kinda like opening a "private" club to serve booze in a dry area, you buy a annual membership and drink away.

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I've been a member of several co-ops and one the boards of a couple.

We still had to follow the rules.

It is nothing like a private club.

---

And that's the legal argument, PA Dept Ag is trying to enforce retail food laws at a Farm. Pennsylvania's safe food laws start at the retail shelf, not the farmer's fridge. Pure Food Laws, 1915 WL 5059 (Pa.Att'y Gen. Nov. 19, 1915).

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Newsflash, this is not, "at a farm." The business model may be a "club" type requiring membership, but it is NOT a co-op. No one owns any part of the farm or is entitled to any part of its production or profits through membership. Membership merely entitles you to buy from the farm, which is is no different than Costco's or Sam's Club's membership model. They are certainly considered the retail shelf for all of their products, despite owning all aspects of production from farm to shelf for many of them, and this farm should be, too.

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Huh?? Costco's or Sam's Club don't produce anything, they are strictly a retail distributor for profit.

Sorry you're comparison is not even in the same galaxy

Wrong.

Costco has a massive chicken operation in Nebraska to provide tens of millions of its rotisserie chickens each year. They have a feed mill, hatching operation, and processing facility. They own everything from egg to heat lamp.

They do not produce all of the things sold in their stores, but some of the things sold under their inhouse brands are indeed produced entirely in house.

ABATTBQ11 said:

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Wrong.

Costco has a massive chicken operation in Nebraska to provide tens of millions of its rotisserie chickens each year. They have a feed mill, hatching operation, and processing facility. They own everything from egg to heat lamp.

They do not produce all of the things sold in their stores, but some of the things sold under their inhouse brands are indeed produced entirely in house.

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Oh you're referring to Lincoln Premium Poultry, a partnership between Marel Poultry and Costco, which is structured as a independent subsidiary of Costco Wholesale Industry and Kirkland is a private-label brand only, exclusively sold at Costco warehouse stores, they don't manufacture anything.

• Costco's batteries are made by Duracell. ...
• The Kirkland scotch at Costco is made by Alexander Murray. ...
• Kirkland Signature Coffee is made by Starbucks. ...
• Green Mountain supplies Costco with its Kirkland K-Cups. ...
• Kirkland Signature tuna is produced by Bumble Bee.

The list goes on and on

https://www.thedailymeal.com/1385913/brands-behind-favorite-kirkland-products-costco/

Imagine a government that allows millions of unvetted illegals into our country but raids an Amish organic farmer.
We are broken.

Foreverconservative said:

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Oh you're referring to Lincoln Premium Poultry, a partnership between Marel Poultry and Costco, which is structured as a independent subsidiary of Costco Wholesale Industry and Kirkland is a private-label brand only, exclusively sold at Costco warehouse stores, they don't manufacture anything.

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Marel Poultry is not a partner in the plant. They supplied all of the equipment, but Costco owns everything through LPP. So yes, Costco owns everything from egg to store.

I said some of the things under their brands are manufactured in house. For those that can read and do logic, that means that, yes, some are made by others under their brand. So no **** there are a lot of items under the Kirkland brand that are not made by Costco, but some are, as I clearly said. Another example is the hot dog. They own two processing facilities for hot dog production that provide all of their packaged and food court hot dogs.

LOTS of retailers do in fact produce the products they sell under their own labels. I've worked on a production plant for a retail brand, and the retailer was the owner and operator of the plant.

You keep trying to make this "amish farm" seem like this little mom and pop place being persecuted by big bad government and being told they can't feed themselves or share food when they're running an obvious commercial operation and trying to skirt food safety regulations by hiding behind club membership in order to buy from them. They are SELLING their products, and whether it is to members only or not, they're still selling it.

CanyonAg77 said:

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IIRC, this is about someone who was selling raw milk, Being Amish has nothing to do with the state's objection.

Raw, unpasteurized milk, is a great source of e.coli and brucellosis, the former can kill you, the latter can cause spontaneous abortions and years-long health problems..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brucellosis

IMO, you are foolish to consume raw milk.

That should be balanced with the freedom we have in this country to be a fool, if you wish. And in the list of Terrible Things happening in our country right now, this seems to be pretty low level concern.

Unless the laws have changed in Texas, it's also illegal to sell unpasteurized milk here, as well, and I suspect the Texas Department of Health would shut you down.

However, it is not illegal to drink raw milk from your own cow. A local dairy at one time (don't know if they still do) skirted the regulation by selling shares of their cows. If you bought a share of a cow, you could collect some quantity of raw milk from them every week, legally. Because you "owned" the cow.

The Aggie running the dairy, told me his customers were from two groups: Youngsters who were into "raw" and "natural" foods, and senior citizens, who had grown up on raw milk, and preferred the taste.

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And pasteurized milk cause calcium leakage (you lose calcium)

The views on that position are definitely mixed. For example, raw milk contains little Vitamin D, while pasteurized milk is fortified with that vitamin. Vitamin D increases bone density. In addition to drinking pasteurized milk, many of us white people who burn in the sun need Vitamin D supplements. I conclude that the benefits expressed regarding raw milk is simply a conspiracy theory - "be afraid of Big Dairy."

But the crap that Gates is "creating" is totally on the up and up.

Hell there are instances where raw milk has had some breakthroughs with children with autism. Most of that stuff hasn't been pumped with preservatives and will probably last longer than a lot of the stuff in stores.

My guess is some big food company saw some of its market share decrease and noticed that ole Abe was doing really well for himself as an Amish Farmer. Got together with the representative that they finance in Congress who slipped a note to the dept of agriculture.

Big Government doing Big Government things.

Whether raw milk is good or bad for you is irrelevant.

If the buyer wants raw milk, he should be allowed to buy it & drink it. And the farmer should be allowed to sell it if there are people willing to buy it.

Quote:

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What change was made in 2021? I've bought raw milk for well over 10 years now, but if it's for more freedom, I'll take it.

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My direct conversation with a dairy operator approximately 20 years ago is where I was told it was illegal to sell raw milk in Texas. Silly me, I believed the guy who was doing it day-to-day, and who used the "buy a share of a cow" method to bypass the regulation.

When you told me that it was not illegal to buy raw milk in Texas, my assumption was that the regulations had been changed. So I hit Google and guys who seem very invested in the raw milk thing

https://rawmilkfortexas.com/

claim on their web site

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Current Texas Law

As of May 14, 2021 farmers may now deliver raw milk to the consumer! This is a long overdue and exciting change brought about by the relentless work of the Farm and Ranch Freedom Alliance.

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Silly me, I went by their assertion. Though, to be fair, they are referring to retail sales, they also imply that direct sales to consumers at the farm have been legal since at least 2009.

Quote:

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As far as safety, I'd rather drink it than pasteurized milk from factory farms.

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When you start throwing out buzz words like "factory farms", it lessens your credibility.

Quote:

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Go check out a raw dairy farm, they're awesome. The cows are healthy and the milk is delicious,

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The dairy where I saw raw milk being sold had a big tank. If you had a cow share, they'd take a bottle over to the tank, turn the spigot, and get your raw milk. If you didn't take it raw, it went into the truck to head to processing.

If you want to argue happy cows, or animal rights, that's one thing. To pretend that viruses and bacteria somehow can't occur on a raw milk farm ,is magical thinking.

Quote:

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and many people with lactose intolerance can drink it, regardless of a government study

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Again, magical thinking. Pasteurized milk has lactose, Raw milk has lactose.

Quote:

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. I'm sure I won't change your mind, but you should seriously check out a local raw dairy farm. It's dairy done the way it should be.

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Again, our local dairy does both. Cows are happy and well treated. It doesn't look like a California Dairy commercial, because it takes economies of scale to produce milk affordable to the masses.

I would not expose my family to the hazards of raw milk, but I'm happy for you to have a choice.

In a world where billions of people worry where the next meal is coming from, Isn't it wonderful to live in a country where we can be picky on how our food is raised and processed, and not worry about being able to eat at all.

Quote:

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Newsflash, this is not, "at a farm." The business model may be a "club" type requiring membership, but it is NOT a co-op. No one owns any part of the farm or is entitled to any part of its production or profits through membership. Membership merely entitles you to buy from the farm, which is is no different than Costco's or Sam's Club's membership model.

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100% correct

Quote:

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Huh?? Costco's or Sam's Club don't produce anything, they are strictly a retail distributor for profit.

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I have been a member of at least eight co-ops that I can recall off the top of my head.

Only one of the eight produced anything. Some were service providers, some were associations of producers that handled grain or ginned cotton. The only production was from a denim mill that was created by dozens of co-op cotton gins banding together.

Co-ops generally produce a profit, as well. The difference is the profits go back to members.

When this farm produces profits, the money goes to Amos Miller, not the members of his buyers club.

Therefore, NOT a co-op

CanyonAg77 said:

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IIRC, this is about someone who was selling raw milk, Being Amish has nothing to do with the state's objection.

Raw, unpasteurized milk, is a great source of e.coli and brucellosis, the former can kill you, the latter can cause spontaneous abortions and years-long health problems..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brucellosis

IMO, you are foolish to consume raw milk.

That should be balanced with the freedom we have in this country to be a fool, if you wish. And in the list of Terrible Things happening in our country right now, this seems to be pretty low level concern.

Unless the laws have changed in Texas, it's also illegal to sell unpasteurized milk here, as well, and I suspect the Texas Department of Health would shut you down.

However, it is not illegal to drink raw milk from your own cow. A local dairy at one time (don't know if they still do) skirted the regulation by selling shares of their cows. If you bought a share of a cow, you could collect some quantity of raw milk from them every week, legally. Because you "owned" the cow.

The Aggie running the dairy, told me his customers were from two groups: Youngsters who were into "raw" and "natural" foods, and senior citizens, who had grown up on raw milk, and preferred the taste.

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Dad and I worked many dairies in Bailey County. A lot of the time, we would have a Nalgene bottle and get some milk from the chilled holding tank. That was raw unpasteurized milk. Not once have we ever had any of the bacteria that you mention.

ts5641 said:

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Imagine a government that allows millions of unvetted illegals into our country but raids an Amish organic farmer.

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Agree we are being invaded at the border.

But this is a state of Pennsylvania matter, not a federal matter.

Bring the hammer of God down on these Amish terrorists! This is priority number one for our government!