When does Trump have to pay $355 MM?

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MarkTwain
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Ellis Wyatt said:

eric76 said:

Whether or not the disgorgement is proper is up to the courts.

It seems to me that what you and others are arguing is special protection for Trump that is denied to nearly everyone else.
To be clear: you're talking about the court that is allowing statutes to be used in ways they have never been used before and as they were never intended to be used by a prosecutor who ran on "getting Trump," and that has made appeal impossible without first posting unrealistic and usurious bond?

This is not justice. This is completely anti-American. Here you are defending it with everything you have.
Don't forget the selective tolling of the statute of limitations with no legal precedent to justify it, and no actual victim of fraud.
“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience" - Mark Twain
eric76
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AG
Ellis Wyatt said:

eric76 said:

Whether or not the disgorgement is proper is up to the courts.

It seems to me that what you and others are arguing is special protection for Trump that is denied to nearly everyone else.
To be clear: you're talking about the court that is allowing statutes to be used in ways they have never been used before and as they were never intended to be used by a prosecutor who ran on "getting Trump," and that has made appeal impossible without first posting unrealistic and usurious bond?

This is not justice. This is completely anti-American. Here you are defending it with everything you have.
That's the spin we hear. I tend to take a lot of things said promoting Trump with a grain of salt.

It remains to be seen whether those claims are at all true.
eric76
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Foreverconservative said:

Ellis Wyatt said:

eric76 said:

Whether or not the disgorgement is proper is up to the courts.

It seems to me that what you and others are arguing is special protection for Trump that is denied to nearly everyone else.
To be clear: you're talking about the court that is allowing statutes to be used in ways they have never been used before and as they were never intended to be used by a prosecutor who ran on "getting Trump," and that has made appeal impossible without first posting unrealistic and usurious bond?

This is not justice. This is completely anti-American. Here you are defending it with everything you have.
Don't forget the selective tolling of the statute of limitations with no legal precedent to justify it, and no actual victim of fraud.
Which statutes of limitations were selectively tolled here and in what manner?
Ellis Wyatt
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Quote:

That's the spin we hear.
eric, you are presumably a sentient being. Those are the facts. They aren't debatable.
aggiehawg
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AG
Bond has been reduced to 175 million. Just announced.
MarkTwain
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aggiehawg said:

Bond has been reduced to 175 million. Just announced.
New York appellate court lowered Trump bond to $175 MILLION, ruling Trump must pay $175 million bond within 10 days.
“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience" - Mark Twain
HTownAg98
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He also gets until September of this year to perfect the appeal. It won't be decided before the election now.
aggiehawg
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AG
Foreverconservative said:

aggiehawg said:

Bond has been reduced to 175 million. Just announced.
New York appellate court lowered Trump bond to $175 MILLION, ruling Trump must pay $175 million bond within 10 days.
Some semblance of sanity, at least.Still a lot of money.
Ellis Wyatt
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aggiehawg said:


Some semblance of sanity, at least.Still a lot of money.
Right. That it was reduced by nearly 2/3 should be telling to honest people. It was an outrageous attempt to prevent any pretense of due process.

People seem to have lost all concept of huge numbers.
Im Gipper
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fc2112 said:


Sorry!

:Looks like you will have to cancel your party!

I'm Gipper
Im Gipper
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I'm Gipper
Ellis Wyatt
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"Judge" Engoron must be furious. After all, he is only looking to see "justice served."
Stat Monitor Repairman
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Engeron goes into an extensive discussion of disgorgement and categorizes the damages as 'disgorgement.' Classification of damages is overlooked but is important here because it may affect any argument Trump has based in the 8th amendment regarding excessive fines.

As we know, disgorgement is an equitable remedy and not based in law, but in equity. An equitable remedy allows the judge to do what he or she thinks is just under the circumstances. In other words, an equitable remedy is whatever the judge says it is.

Typically fines and damages are straightforward as the law has been largely settled in that area, but it appears that they went to great lengths to classify the damages in this case as disgorgement rather than a fine or some other category of damages based in law.

The judge mentions disgorgement 17 times and goes in to a discussion on the issue and his reasoning. At first glance this was a strange tack and much discussion has been had about the bizarre reasoning that money saved equates to ill gotten profits and disgorgement of those profits is justified.

I say all that to say this.

It stands to reason that the AG and the judge did all this to curb Trump's argument tht $355 million in damages with no victim was considered an excessive fine. It's crafted in such a way to survive 8th amendment scrutiny.

So the AG and the Judge have collaborated here and gone to great lengths to also disgorge Trump of his constitutional rights and make these damages stick. They may have managed to muck this up just enough where it gives any appellate court that looks at it an out.

So Letitia and the judge really deserve some credit here for thinking this all through. Outstanding work. Letitia campaigned on the single issue of getting Trump, and she did.
Logos Stick
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aggiehawg said:

Bond has been reduced to 175 million. Just announced.

I thought he could not appeal the amount until he paid the full amount?
Stat Monitor Repairman
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Did the Letitia and Engeron tag team come to Jesus and decide that an almost half billion dollar bond was excessive and would effectively deny Trump a right of appeal?

Why are they charitable all of a sudden?

They captured the headlines but this was bound to raise the eyebrow of even ther most concerned of moderates,

Is the NY executive branch and judicial branch actively engaged in electioneering?

I'm surprised they went soft and caved on this.

Folded to Trump. Started out bold but caved at the last moment.
HTownAg98
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Logos Stick said:

aggiehawg said:

Bond has been reduced to 175 million. Just announced.

I thought he could not appeal the amount until he paid the full amount?
He could appeal and not pay anything. All the bond does is keep the government from seizing property during the appeal.
techno-ag
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AG
Stat Monitor Repairman said:

Did the Letitia and Engeron tag team come to Jesus and decide that an almost half billion dollar bond was excessive and would effectively deny Trump a right of appeal?

Why are they charitable all of a sudden?

They captured the headlines but this was bound to raise the eyebrow of even ther most concerned of moderates,

Is the NY executive branch and judicial branch actively engaged in electioneering?
They saw the polling showing Trump winning the election over this.
Trump will fix it.
HTownAg98
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Stat Monitor Repairman said:

Did the Letitia and Engeron tag team come to Jesus and decide that an almost half billion dollar bond was excessive and would effectively deny Trump a right of appeal?

Why are they charitable all of a sudden?

They captured the headlines but this was bound to raise the eyebrow of even ther most concerned of moderates,

Is the NY executive branch and judicial branch actively engaged in electioneering?

I'm surprised they went soft and caved on this.

Folded to Trump. Started out bold but caved at the last moment.
The appellate court reduced the bond.
jrdaustin
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AG
eric76 said:

jrdaustin said:

eric76 said:

Ellis Wyatt said:

eric76 said:

How much of the judgment against Trump were fines? My understanding is that it was a disgorgement.
Disgorgement of what?
Apparently of what the judge considered to be unearned and unjustified profits resulting from his representations of the value of his wealth resulting in lower interest rates.

Look, the whole thing seems rather suspicious. I would be surprised if the judge didn't make some errors there. However, it is in the court system and there are rules that must be followed. It doesn't matter how much everyone whines about it, the rules of the court system govern this.

It wouldn't be very surprising if the appeals court vacated the judgment and remanded it to the lower court for a do-over. The point is that being in the court system, Trump cannot magically kick it out of there.

This case strikes me as quite possibly the weakest of the cases against Trump. I can't say that Trump isn't reaping what he has spent his entire life sowing, though.
Again, if you were truly conservative, conservative philosophy and the rule of law - Especially equal protection - would govern your thinking. You would be outraged at this judicial malfeasance.

Yet you allow your own personal hatred of a man to outweigh your judgement.

Disgorgement of profits? How in your world would it ever be possible that 1/2 of the value of a multigenerational family business with world wide holdings be considered the profit from overstatement of value on a single loan application?

Do you even realize what you're saying?
There are people every day who find it onerous to post a bond or the money in escrow to forestall seizures during an appeal. Trump is just a better known case. Other than that, the same rules that would apply to you or me in a similar case should also apply to him.

Yes, there are people who find it onerous to post bond every day. But that is not a purpose of the bond. A bond is not supposed to inflict hardship as an integral part of its design. We have a case here where we have an arbitrary judgement has no relationship to the "crime", and the resulting bond as a function of the arbitrary, excessive judgement. As far as I'm aware, the only "rules" here are that anything goes as long as it's Trump.

Was this about a single loan application? My impression is that it is about many loan applications and other statements of his wealth.

Isn't that the funny part about all of this. The allegations are that he overinflated the value of Mara Lago and other assets, and to be sure, I checked, and yes it was on more than one loan. But valuations of real estate are not hard and fast. It's a judgement call. The valuations included a disclaimer indicated that the valuations were estimates and that the information was subject to review - which was done in EVERY case.

The judge disagreed with the valuations, and then egregiously fined Trump because HIS OPINION was different as to the value. To be sure, many have come back and said the Ergeron's valuations were grossly UNDERVALUED.

But that doesn't matter to you, does it?


And I don't actually hate Trump. I don't trust him at all and wish he would just go away and behave as if he were an honest citizen. If he did that, I probably wouldn't think of him any more often than I do Obama, Bill, or Hillary. I would never vote for any of them, but I don't hate them. I just wish they would go away like I wash Trump would go away.

Annnd, we're back to the conservative thing. You don't trust him, and you'd rather see him railroaded out of the election and us have 4 more years of Biden's policies rather than suffer the narcissism of Trump coupled with good policy.
There is so much wrong with this one post, Eric. Let's break it down...

I've said it before. Trump was not my first choice either. But he's the one we have. Him, or Biden.

Your posting continues to strongly indicate that you prefer Biden. And you're willing to look beyond an obvious manipulation of our justice system in order to get him. But you do you.
fredfredunderscorefred
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AG
Stat Monitor Repairman said:

Did the Letitia and Engeron tag team come to Jesus and decide that an almost half billion dollar bond was excessive and would effectively deny Trump a right of appeal?

Why are they charitable all of a sudden?

They captured the headlines but this was bound to raise the eyebrow of even ther most concerned of moderates,

Is the NY executive branch and judicial branch actively engaged in electioneering?

I'm surprised they went soft and caved on this.

Folded to Trump. Started out bold but caved at the last moment.


It was an appellate court. No indication AG or engeron agree with the appellate court decision (likely they do not)
MarkTwain
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Court also struck down the idiotic ruling of the hack judge Engeron that no one in the Trump organization be able to do business in NY.
“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience" - Mark Twain
Rockdoc
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AG
Sorry for your and Antoninus' loss. Get used to it.
Logos Stick
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HTownAg98 said:

Logos Stick said:

aggiehawg said:

Bond has been reduced to 175 million. Just announced.

I thought he could not appeal the amount until he paid the full amount?
He could appeal and not pay anything. All the bond does is keep the government from seizing property during the appeal.

OK, how did they come up with this new number, which seems outrageous still?
bobbranco
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AG
Logos Stick said:

HTownAg98 said:

Logos Stick said:

aggiehawg said:

Bond has been reduced to 175 million. Just announced.

I thought he could not appeal the amount until he paid the full amount?
He could appeal and not pay anything. All the bond does is keep the government from seizing property during the appeal.

OK, how did they come up with this new number, which seems outrageous still?
They're lawyers. Too chicken to make a decision. So split the baby they will.
fc2112
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Im Gipper said:

fc2112 said:


Sorry!

:Looks like you will have to cancel your party!

For 10 days, perhaps. Does Trump have $175 MM?
jrdaustin
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AG
Stat Monitor Repairman said:

Engeron goes into an extensive discussion of disgorgement and categorizes the damages as 'disgorgement.' Classification of damages is overlooked but is important here because it may affect any argument Trump has based in the 8th amendment regarding excessive fines.

As we know, disgorgement is an equitable remedy and not based in law, but in equity. An equitable remedy allows the judge to do what he or she thinks is just under the circumstances. In other words, an equitable remedy is whatever the judge says it is.

Typically fines and damages are straightforward as the law has been largely settled in that area, but it appears that they went to great lengths to classify the damages in this case as disgorgement rather than a fine or some other category of damages based in law.

The judge mentions disgorgement 17 times and goes in to a discussion on the issue and his reasoning. At first glance this was a strange tack and much discussion has been had about the bizarre reasoning that money saved equates to ill gotten profits and disgorgement of those profits is justified.

I say all that to say this.

It stands to reason that the AG and the judge did all this to curb Trump's argument tht $355 million in damages with no victim was considered an excessive fine. It's crafted in such a way to survive 8th amendment scrutiny.

So the AG and the Judge have collaborated here and gone to great lengths to also disgorge Trump of his constitutional rights and make these damages stick. They may have managed to muck this up just enough where it gives any appellate court that looks at it an out.

So Letitia and the judge really deserve some credit here for thinking this all through. Outstanding work. Letitia campaigned on the single issue of getting Trump, and she did.
Good analysis. However, the extent to which the planning was put into place to justify an unprecedented judgement only serves to reinforce the concept that the judgement itself was ultimately political in nature.

It remains to be seen if our system is robust enough to withstand a creative assault on our foundational principles in order to manipulate the system in such a way to target one individual for the express purpose of removing that individual from the political landscape.

For the sake of our country, I would hope so. Lord help us all if this strategy is ultimately successful, because moving forward it will then become standard operating procedure in the political arena.
BigRobSA
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Still a ridiculous sum for a made-up issue by a hack lawyer and hack judge. Hopefully they both lose their jobs over this idiocy.
Stat Monitor Repairman
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fredfredunderscorefred said:

Stat Monitor Repairman said:

Did the Letitia and Engeron tag team come to Jesus and decide that an almost half billion dollar bond was excessive and would effectively deny Trump a right of appeal?

Why are they charitable all of a sudden?

They captured the headlines but this was bound to raise the eyebrow of even ther most concerned of moderates,

Is the NY executive branch and judicial branch actively engaged in electioneering?

I'm surprised they went soft and caved on this.

Folded to Trump. Started out bold but caved at the last moment.
It was an appellate court. No indication AG or engeron agree with the appellate court decision (likely they do not)
Will be interested to see what they got to say on this.

Hope Letitia and Engeron don't get their feelings too hurt over this.
Barnyard96
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AG
Any word if Trump was able to secure a bond in that amount?
Stat Monitor Repairman
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Thats ultimately the point i'm trying to make. A lot of planning went into this, and you can see that materialize the more you look into it and the more you dig into the reasoning here.
Ellis Wyatt
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Barnyard96 said:

Any word if Trump was able to secure a bond in that amount?

I would assume they're working on it.

As I recall, $100MM was kind of an upper limit bond number that was going around. But maybe companies will reconsider with this "break."
Im Gipper
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fc2112 said:

Im Gipper said:

fc2112 said:


Sorry!

:Looks like you will have to cancel your party!

For 10 days, perhaps. Does Trump have $175 MM?
KEEP HOPE ALIVE!!!




FYI: Trump will have no problem getting a bond on this amount!

I'm Gipper
Im Gipper
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Stat Monitor Repairman said:

Did the Letitia and Engeron tag team come to Jesus and decide that an almost half billion dollar bond was excessive and would effectively deny Trump a right of appeal?

Why are they charitable all of a sudden?

They captured the headlines but this was bound to raise the eyebrow of even ther most concerned of moderates,

Is the NY executive branch and judicial branch actively engaged in electioneering?

I'm surprised they went soft and caved on this.

Folded to Trump. Started out bold but caved at the last moment.
Uh, Letitia and Engeron had nothing to do with this!

it as the Appellate Court!

I'm Gipper
bobbranco
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AG
Stat Monitor Repairman said:

Engeron goes into an extensive discussion of disgorgement and categorizes the damages as 'disgorgement.' Classification of damages is overlooked but is important here because it may affect any argument Trump has based in the 8th amendment regarding excessive fines.

As we know, disgorgement is an equitable remedy and not based in law, but in equity. An equitable remedy allows the judge to do what he or she thinks is just under the circumstances. In other words, an equitable remedy is whatever the judge says it is.

Typically fines and damages are straightforward as the law has been largely settled in that area, but it appears that they went to great lengths to classify the damages in this case as disgorgement rather than a fine or some other category of damages based in law.

The judge mentions disgorgement 17 times and goes in to a discussion on the issue and his reasoning. At first glance this was a strange tack and much discussion has been had about the bizarre reasoning that money saved equates to ill gotten profits and disgorgement of those profits is justified.

I say all that to say this.

It stands to reason that the AG and the judge did all this to curb Trump's argument tht $355 million in damages with no victim was considered an excessive fine. It's crafted in such a way to survive 8th amendment scrutiny.

So the AG and the Judge have collaborated here and gone to great lengths to also disgorge Trump of his constitutional rights and make these damages stick. They may have managed to muck this up just enough where it gives any appellate court that looks at it an out.

So Letitia and the judge really deserve some credit here for thinking this all through. Outstanding work. Letitia campaigned on the single issue of getting Trump, and she did.
Who was disgorged?

Who should receive these 'disgorged' funds?
bobbranco
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AG
fc2112 said:

Im Gipper said:

fc2112 said:


Sorry!

:Looks like you will have to cancel your party!

For 10 days, perhaps. Does Trump have $175 MM?
The fascist cheering section is back!
 
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