Aggie4Life02 said:

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aTmAg said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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aTmAg said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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The ends justify the means sometimes when it comes to slavery apparently.

It's amazing how people will twist and turn themselves into knots in order to justify their pet nonsense.

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When the end is "protection of liberty" they yes. They infringe on our right to property when we pay taxes for defense. This is an infringement of liberty for defense. Without defense, our rights would be far more egregiously infringed than they are with the draft. Seems that any real libertarian would agree.

Please stop embarrassing the libertarian movement with this naive nonsense.

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Slavery for liberty. You're the true libertarian!

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Are you against throwing criminals in jail? That is infringing on the right to liberty too. Does that end justify the means?

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LOL. So citizens are de facto convicted criminals now? As I said jump through hoops. It's called due process.

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How why would "due process" make it okay? Didn't you say that the "ends do not justify the means"? So it's only okay with you when government decides their process is "due" enough?

And, BTW, the draft is enacted with tons of due process anyway.

Aggie4Life02 said:

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Military conscription is the worst form of slavery. I don't agree with this dude, but involuntary servitude is vile and disgusting. Draping slavery in patriotism doesn't make it any less disgusting.

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Conscription isn't ideal, but ultimately the need for survival trumps all other concerns. Israel isn't as fortunate as the US is in being a literal ocean away from any serious military threat. They have Hamas and Hezbollah right on their borders wanting to eradicate all the Jews. So, I understand why they have to make military service mandatory.

If you want to be disgusted at anything, blame "international law" with its double standard that massive forced population transfer was acceptable against the Germans in 1945, but not against the "Palestinians" in 1967. Had such an expulsion been conducted then, Israel would be in a much more secure position today.

Aggie4Life02 said:

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Infection_Ag11 said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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Military conscription is the worst form of slavery. I don't agree with this dude, but involuntary servitude is vile and disgusting. Draping slavery in patriotism doesn't make it any less disgusting.

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Military conscripts are paid, have all their living expenses covered by the government, and at the end of their conscription they can have their education, homes and cars all completely or partially paid for by the government.

Regardless of how you feel about it, calling it "the worst form of slavery" is stupidity of the highest order.

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What good is pay when you are dead?

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The mortality rate for military conscripts in Israel is less than 1%. A 21 year old in Israeli is historically more likely to die of a car crash than to be killed while serving. Meanwhile, the average life expectancy of a slave in the antebellum south was 22, roughly half that of southern landowners at the time.

You're just wrong buddy

Aggie4Life02 said:

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aTmAg said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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aTmAg said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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The ends justify the means sometimes when it comes to slavery apparently.

It's amazing how people will twist and turn themselves into knots in order to justify their pet nonsense.

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When the end is "protection of liberty" they yes. They infringe on our right to property when we pay taxes for defense. This is an infringement of liberty for defense. Without defense, our rights would be far more egregiously infringed than they are with the draft. Seems that any real libertarian would agree.

Please stop embarrassing the libertarian movement with this naive nonsense.

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Slavery for liberty. You're the true libertarian!

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Are you against throwing criminals in jail? That is infringing on the right to liberty too. Does that end justify the means?

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LOL. So citizens are de facto convicted criminals now? As I said jump through hoops. It's called due process.

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Citizens in western republics historically have a social contract with the state that includes an obligation to defend the state for the greater good in times of existential threats.

bobbranco said:

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True. If you get paid you are not a slave.

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Typically the use of slavery comes with the implication of no financial compensation. It's not technically required definitionally but in practice that is the case.

But even in cases where slavery is used in situations where physical payment is included, those situations are not comparable to military conscription.

Graduated in 1970 and was drafted 4 months later. Thought the Vietnam war was a waste of American lives for nothing so I enlisted for an extra to get a MOS that would (probably) keep me out of that conflict.

Unfortunately I wasn't privileged and didn't have a doctor to provide an out for bone spurs. Took a 92 percent cut in salary when I went from my civilian job to PFC. There were some good times and met some really good people but it was mostly a waste of 3 years.

Infection_Ag11 said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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aTmAg said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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aTmAg said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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The ends justify the means sometimes when it comes to slavery apparently.

It's amazing how people will twist and turn themselves into knots in order to justify their pet nonsense.

---

When the end is "protection of liberty" they yes. They infringe on our right to property when we pay taxes for defense. This is an infringement of liberty for defense. Without defense, our rights would be far more egregiously infringed than they are with the draft. Seems that any real libertarian would agree.

Please stop embarrassing the libertarian movement with this naive nonsense.

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Slavery for liberty. You're the true libertarian!

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Are you against throwing criminals in jail? That is infringing on the right to liberty too. Does that end justify the means?

---

LOL. So citizens are de facto convicted criminals now? As I said jump through hoops. It's called due process.

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Citizens in western republics historically have a social contract with the state that includes an obligation to defend the state for the greater good in times of existential threats.

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Ah, the old myth of the social contract…

I want to thank the slaves that got drafted and saved my rights to freedom.

Aggie4Life02 said:

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Infection_Ag11 said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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aTmAg said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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aTmAg said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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The ends justify the means sometimes when it comes to slavery apparently.

It's amazing how people will twist and turn themselves into knots in order to justify their pet nonsense.

---

When the end is "protection of liberty" they yes. They infringe on our right to property when we pay taxes for defense. This is an infringement of liberty for defense. Without defense, our rights would be far more egregiously infringed than they are with the draft. Seems that any real libertarian would agree.

Please stop embarrassing the libertarian movement with this naive nonsense.

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Slavery for liberty. You're the true libertarian!

---

Are you against throwing criminals in jail? That is infringing on the right to liberty too. Does that end justify the means?

---

LOL. So citizens are de facto convicted criminals now? As I said jump through hoops. It's called due process.

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Citizens in western republics historically have a social contract with the state that includes an obligation to defend the state for the greater good in times of existential threats.

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Ah, the old myth of the social contract…

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Typical for you to ignore posts you find inconvenient. You cannot defend your ideology with common sense as your ideology is a micron deep.

What's more of an infringement: somebody getting drafted or somebody getting killed in war?

Aggie4Life02 said:

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Military conscription is the worst form of slavery. I don't agree with this dude, but involuntary servitude is vile and disgusting. Draping slavery in patriotism doesn't make it any less disgusting.

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If someone does not agree with Israel's military conscription they free to move.

Scruffy said:

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ItsA&InotA&M said:

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Scruffy said:

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Wasn't Sergent York one as well?
Or do have my WW2 people confused?

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MOH recipient York was WW1.

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Thanks... they all run together

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Alvin York originally refused to fight based on religious beliefs but later changed his mind.

aTmAg said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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Infection_Ag11 said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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aTmAg said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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aTmAg said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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The ends justify the means sometimes when it comes to slavery apparently.

It's amazing how people will twist and turn themselves into knots in order to justify their pet nonsense.

---

When the end is "protection of liberty" they yes. They infringe on our right to property when we pay taxes for defense. This is an infringement of liberty for defense. Without defense, our rights would be far more egregiously infringed than they are with the draft. Seems that any real libertarian would agree.

Please stop embarrassing the libertarian movement with this naive nonsense.

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Slavery for liberty. You're the true libertarian!

---

Are you against throwing criminals in jail? That is infringing on the right to liberty too. Does that end justify the means?

---

LOL. So citizens are de facto convicted criminals now? As I said jump through hoops. It's called due process.

---

Citizens in western republics historically have a social contract with the state that includes an obligation to defend the state for the greater good in times of existential threats.

---

Ah, the old myth of the social contract…

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Typical for you to ignore posts you find inconvenient. You cannot defend your ideology with common sense as your ideology is a micron deep.

What's more of an infringement: somebody getting drafted or somebody getting killed in war?

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I ignore you because you are intellectually dishonest and suffer from cognitive dissonance.

Aggie4Life02 said:

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aTmAg said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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Infection_Ag11 said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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aTmAg said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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aTmAg said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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The ends justify the means sometimes when it comes to slavery apparently.

It's amazing how people will twist and turn themselves into knots in order to justify their pet nonsense.

---

When the end is "protection of liberty" they yes. They infringe on our right to property when we pay taxes for defense. This is an infringement of liberty for defense. Without defense, our rights would be far more egregiously infringed than they are with the draft. Seems that any real libertarian would agree.

Please stop embarrassing the libertarian movement with this naive nonsense.

---

Slavery for liberty. You're the true libertarian!

---

Are you against throwing criminals in jail? That is infringing on the right to liberty too. Does that end justify the means?

---

LOL. So citizens are de facto convicted criminals now? As I said jump through hoops. It's called due process.

---

Citizens in western republics historically have a social contract with the state that includes an obligation to defend the state for the greater good in times of existential threats.

---

Ah, the old myth of the social contract…

---

Typical for you to ignore posts you find inconvenient. You cannot defend your ideology with common sense as your ideology is a micron deep.

What's more of an infringement: somebody getting drafted or somebody getting killed in war?

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I ignore you because you are intellectually dishonest and suffer from cognitive dissonance.

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Sure, buddy. Then expose my intellectual dishonesty with an actual argument. If your stance made any sense then it would easy.

Government ALWAYS intrudes on rights. That's why it exists. As a libertarian, we should want government to only do so to protect rights overall. We infringe on the rights of murderers by throwing them in jail because that infringement is less overall than if we let murderers run rampant. We infringe on the right of property by imposing taxation, because defense, police, courts, etc. protects more rights overall.

And the same is true with the draft. When an army is bearing down on a nation (like Arabs have done to Israel many times), then it would be less of an infringement to draft people than to just to let the Arabic nations genocide the entire population.

These sorts of things should be obvious.

I have been off Txags all afternoon with honey-dos...

Wait, so OP came back and doubled down on stupid?

No one is suggesting that obligated military service should be un-paid.

Additionally, I would be for free technical school or super low rates for college after their time is complete.

On top of that, only a small percentage of military members serve in combat. There are tons of jobs behind the lines that could be accomplished as well.

Comparing it to slavery is intellectually dishonest.at a minimum, more like pushing a narrative and truly disgusting, when slaves have no rights, no pay, can't choose what they would like to do, can't choose who they married and were owned by someone else.

Amen.

aggiez03 said:

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I have been off Txags all afternoon with honey-dos...

Wait, so OP came back and doubled down on stupid?

No one is suggesting that obligated military service should be un-paid.

Additionally, I would be for free technical school or super low rates for college after their time is complete.

On top of that, only a small percentage of military members serve in combat. There are tons of jobs behind the lines that could be accomplished as well.

Comparing it to slavery is intellectually dishonest.at a minimum, more like pushing a narrative and truly disgusting, when slaves have no rights, no pay, can't choose what they would like to do, can't choose who they married and were owned by someone else.

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Chattel slavery isn't the only form of slavery. Involuntary servitude is slavery even if someone gets paid.


It is also a violation of the US Constitution.

13th Amendment:

Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

Aggie4Life02 said:

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aggiez03 said:

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I have been off Txags all afternoon with honey-dos...

Wait, so OP came back and doubled down on stupid?

No one is suggesting that obligated military service should be un-paid.

Additionally, I would be for free technical school or super low rates for college after their time is complete.

On top of that, only a small percentage of military members serve in combat. There are tons of jobs behind the lines that could be accomplished as well.

Comparing it to slavery is intellectually dishonest.at a minimum, more like pushing a narrative and truly disgusting, when slaves have no rights, no pay, can't choose what they would like to do, can't choose who they married and were owned by someone else.

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Chattel slavery isn't the only form of slavery. Involuntary servitude is slavery even if someone gets paid.


It is also a violation of the US Constitution.

13th Amendment:

Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

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The USSC has historically upheld the Constitution's right of Congress to raise an army by any means necessary to include conscription. The court has actually directly rejected your specific argument on TWO separate occasions, I believe in 1917 and 1968.

And the objection everyone has to your claim isn't really even that you are calling it slavery, though that is in and of itself absurd (Compulsory military service and involuntary or indentured servitude simply do not carry the same historical connotations or definitions by any stretch of the imagination). The issue most including myself are taking is that you called it WORSE than chattel slavery based on the objective falsehood that it is more dangerous and more people die as a percentage. That's just so overtly wrong that I have to assume an educated adult knows that to be the case and you're just lying. But either way it's an absolutely absurd and frankly historically offensive claim. To compare Vietnam draftees to an enslaved African being whipped in a Caribbean sugar cane field 300 years ago is beyond distasteful.

Infection_Ag11 said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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aggiez03 said:

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I have been off Txags all afternoon with honey-dos...

Wait, so OP came back and doubled down on stupid?

No one is suggesting that obligated military service should be un-paid.

Additionally, I would be for free technical school or super low rates for college after their time is complete.

On top of that, only a small percentage of military members serve in combat. There are tons of jobs behind the lines that could be accomplished as well.

Comparing it to slavery is intellectually dishonest.at a minimum, more like pushing a narrative and truly disgusting, when slaves have no rights, no pay, can't choose what they would like to do, can't choose who they married and were owned by someone else.

---

Chattel slavery isn't the only form of slavery. Involuntary servitude is slavery even if someone gets paid.


It is also a violation of the US Constitution.

13th Amendment:

Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

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The USSC has historically upheld the Constitution's right of Congress to raise an army by any means necessary to include conscription. The court has actually directly rejected your specific argument on TWO separate occasions, I believe in 1917 and 1968.

And the objection everyone has to your claim isn't really even that you are calling it slavery, though that is in and of itself absurd (Compulsory military service and involuntary or indentured servitude simply do not carry the same historical connotations or definitions by any stretch of the imagination). The issue most including myself are taking is that you called it WORSE than chattel slavery based on the objective falsehood that it is more dangerous and more people die as a percentage. That's just so overtly wrong that I have to assume an educated adult knows that to be the case and you're just lying. But either way it's an absolutely absurd and frankly historically offensive claim. To compare Vietnam draftees to an enslaved African being whipped in a Caribbean sugar cane field 300 years ago is beyond distasteful.

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How many draftees died in Vietnam for a bull$*it war that had nothing to do with them?

How many draftees died in WW1 so a bunch of European Kings could try to win more land and a pissing contest?

Most wars are not patriotic or defensive and the ones that are don't need to force men to defend their homeland. The vast majority of men will do so without compulsion.

If you can't get enough to volunteer, that should tell you something about that war.

Quote:

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The USSC has historically upheld the Constitution's right of Congress to raise an army by any means necessary to include conscription. The court has actually directly rejected your specific argument on TWO separate occasions, I believe in 1917 and 1968.

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The vast majority of Supreme Court Justices have the reading comprehension abilities of a 3rd grader. Many of them thought that the right to murder your baby was in the Constitution somewhere.

Quote:

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How many draftees died in Vietnam for a bull$*it war that had nothing to do with them?

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2,215,000 Americans were drafted into Vietnam. Less than 1% were killed (only about 25% of the men in active combat zones during the war were draftees). Meanwhile, over 70% eventually derived significant educational and financial benefits for serving, the majority of whom never actually had to endure any significant danger.

Quote:

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How many draftees died in WW1 so a bunch of European Kings could try to win more land and a pissing contest?

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2,800,000 million Americans were drafted into World War One. About 2% were killed. Also just as a side, but by the time we joined the war Russia was tapping out, France hasdnt had a monarch since 1870 and the English monarchy hadnt had any real power in 200 years. Just a historical annoyance.

Quote:

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Most wars are not patriotic or defensive and the ones that are don't need to force men to defend their homeland. The vast majority of men will do so without compulsion.

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Irrelevant to the discussion. Untrue, but also irrelevant.

Quote:

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If you can't get enough to volunteer, that should tell you something about that war.

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Most humans would rather be ruled than stressed. Only a minority will voluntarily risk life and limb without the use of incentives or force.

Quote:

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The vast majority of Supreme Court Justices have the reading comprehension abilities of a 3rd grader.

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You see, it's difficult to take someone seriously when they post nonsense like this.

Yes, a collection of some of the most accomplished judges and legal minds in the history of our republic are largely drooling morons who can't read. They managed to graduate law school and work their way to the top of the judicial system because they couldn't comprehend the written word.

Maybe they need to have a 2nd, more inclusive circumcision.

Infection_Ag11 said:

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Quote:

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The vast majority of Supreme Court Justices have the reading comprehension abilities of a 3rd grader.

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You see, it's difficult to take someone seriously when they post nonsense like this.

Yes, a collection of some of the most accomplished judges and legal minds in the history of our republic are largely drooling morons who can't read. They managed to graduate law school and work their way to the top of the judicial system because they couldn't comprehend the written word.

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I was obviously using hyperbole, but when Harvard educated men completely ignore the plain text and meaning of the Constitution, including the Bill of Rights, it's hard to take their opinion on how military conscription isn't involuntary servitude seriously.

It obviously is. I guess in your mind certain forms of slavery are acceptable. So be it. But don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining. Military conscription is a form of slavery. Stop pretending it's not because it upsets your modern day sensibilities.

To all the people defending military conscription, you are missing the point. Name ONE war other than WWII our government has gotten involved in that you'd be willing to go fight in. Or even worse, that your sons would go fight in. If we could trust our government to only engage in justifiable conflicts, I'd happily sign up. No way in hell I'm fighting for what this country has become. And by that measure, I agree military conscription is the worst form of slavery.

Helicopter Ben said:

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To all the people defending military conscription, you are missing the point. Name ONE war other than WWII our government has gotten involved in that you'd be willing to go fight in. Or even worse, that your sons would go fight in. If we could trust our government to only engage in justifiable conflicts, I'd happily sign up. No way in hell I'm fighting for what this country has become. And by that measure, I agree military conscription is the worst form of slavery.

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THIS!

You couldn't pay me a million dollars to fight for these corrupt politicians. Like you, I'd be willing to fight and die if our freedom was actually being threatened.

Wyoming Aggie said:

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Helicopter Ben said:

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To all the people defending military conscription, you are missing the point. Name ONE war other than WWII our government has gotten involved in that you'd be willing to go fight in. Or even worse, that your sons would go fight in. If we could trust our government to only engage in justifiable conflicts, I'd happily sign up. No way in hell I'm fighting for what this country has become. And by that measure, I agree military conscription is the worst form of slavery.

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THIS!

You couldn't pay me a million dollars to fight for these corrupt politicians. Like you, I'd be willing to fight and die if our freedom was actually being threatened.

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The question which one must ask themselves is am I willing to die in a small scale war in order to prevent an international war. Would it have been better to stop Germany/Japan early on instead of a policy of capitulation. We ended up in a global war in which millions of innocent civilians and military died.

We will never know the consequences if we had not intervened in Korea and Vietnam. Maybe the Chinese would have stopped on their own volition but their goal is world domination, that is the underlining goal of Communism(note: even though no country has ever achieved Communism, seems to stop at dictatorship of the proletariat).

Me, I am just a poster on a bulletin board and haven't the answers but history seems to repeat itself.

edit spelling

One can go a further step in voluntary service. The one proposed by Robert Heinlein (USNA '29) in his Star Ship Trooper novel. One I have always thought an interesting concept.

1-All military service is voluntary- there is a constitutional right to serve.
2-All citizenship is based on military service.
3-Only citizens can vote or hold office.
4-Non citizens pay taxes and go about their normal life.

OR " A soldier accepts personal responsibility for the safety of the body politic of which he is a member, defending it, if need be, with his life. The civilian does not.

Novel cocept...

laavispa said:

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One can go a further step in voluntary service. The one proposed by Robert Heinlein (USNA '29) in his Star Ship Trooper novel. One I have always thought an interesting concept.

1-All military service is voluntary- there is a constitutional right to serve.
2-All citizenship is based on military service.
3-Only citizens can vote or hold office.
4-Non citizens pay taxes and go about their normal life.

OR " A soldier accepts personal responsibility for the safety of the body politic of which he is a member, defending it, if need be, with his life. The civilian does not.

Novel cocept...

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Taxation without representation…what a statist idea!

The kid's a cowardly POS. But it's good to know they have them over there too.

Helicopter Ben said:

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To all the people defending military conscription, you are missing the point. Name ONE war other than WWII our government has gotten involved in that you'd be willing to go fight in. Or even worse, that your sons would go fight in. If we could trust our government to only engage in justifiable conflicts, I'd happily sign up. No way in hell I'm fighting for what this country has become. And by that measure, I agree military conscription is the worst form of slavery.

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Revolutionary War, War of 1812, "Civil" War, probably the Spanish American War. But nice moving the goalposts. A4L said "Military conscription is the worst form of slavery," a blanket statement that is obviously untrue.

This thread is about the Israeli coward. So even if you don't think it's right to conscript for wars like Vietnam, because it wasn't a direct threat to the US, this is about the direct threat to Israel. No military age male, and sometimes females (see WWII Russia) should be able to shirk the responsibility of a citizen to defend the country that he or she is a citizen of; And then enjoy the benefits that were fought for by others.

You use WWII as the example of a just war. Was that conscription also slavery? How about for the French or the English?

Involuntary servitude.

Quote:

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No military age male, and sometimes females (see WWII Russia) should be able to shirk the responsibility of a citizen to defend the country that he or she is a citizen of; And then enjoy the benefits that were fought for by others.

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Well said.

In looking at Israeli conscription policies, they seem very generous. Even to the point of assigning people to noncombatant roles. see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Defense_Service_Law .

Aggie4Life02 said:

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GAC06 said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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Military conscription is the worst form of slavery.

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Except for… actual slavery. Embarrassing.

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Military conscription is actual slavery. Involuntary servitude. It's not that complicated.

Military conscripts are much more likely to die while serving than plantation slaves

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Yikes. I think if you asked anyone if they'd rather be conscripted for a period of time to serve their country versus 1800s chattel where you never envision the chance to be free and serve some idiot for their personal enjoyment.

Neither is desired, but I think its a bad comparison.

Aggie4Life02 said:

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Involuntary servitude.

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Which is preferable to the alternative of involuntary death to even more people.

zephyr88 said:

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When a country loses the support of a generation, it is on a downward spiral towards failure.

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That's exactly what happened in the 60s here. Look who Is in charge now.