Israel/Hamas going at it

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BTHOB
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1:49p, 10/23/23
AG
https://www.cnbc.com/2023/10/23/israel-hamas-war-updates-and-latest-news-on-gaza-conflict.html

****
Excerpt:

"...Israel Defense Forces spokesperson Jonathan Conricus told ABC Radio Melbourne.
"The aim here is to totally dismantle Hamas from its military capabilities. If that can be done from the air, and with standoff measures, with very limited exposure to our troops and less damage on the ground, that would be great," he added.
Meanwhile, the European Union's top diplomat Josep Borrell on Monday called for a pause in the ongoing conflict..."
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BTHOB
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1:50p, 10/23/23
AG
Translation: full-scale ground invasion less and less likely
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boulderaggie
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2:08p, 10/23/23
AG
My translation: Yes, that would be great, buuuuut...

They're going to hunt down every single invader they can ID, even if it takes 20 years. They know they'll never get another chance now that the entire planet (pols + media) have shown their cards.
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BTHOB
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In reply to boulderaggie • 2:09p, 10/23/23
AG
boulderaggie said:
My translation: Yes, that would be great, buuuuut...

They're going to hunt down every single invader they can ID, even if it takes 20 years. They know they'll never get another chance now that the entire planet (pols + media) has shown their cards.
I hope you're correct and Israel remains steadfast in their efforts to complete their stated mission.
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P.U.T.U
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In reply to LMCane • 2:09p, 10/23/23
AG
Women have their own military units and they normally don't serve in the same roles as men. They may be attached to a male unit for intelligence rolls or to help with females and children on the other side.
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P.U.T.U
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In reply to BTHOB • 2:15p, 10/23/23
AG
Israel does not play around when it comes down to hunting down those who harm their citizens. Took them 16 years to track down all the terrorist involved in the 1972 Munich massacre.

Look up Caesarea, I said it earlier but it is not illegal to assassinate someone in Israel law. As long as they "prove" that the person is a threat they can and will kill them. Until recently they were still hunting down Germans from WWII
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Definitely Not A Cop
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2:16p, 10/23/23
AG
There was a story I saw on some thread about a US helicopter being shot down in the past few days, did that end up being fake news?
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LMCane
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In reply to P.U.T.U • 2:28p, 10/23/23
P.U.T.U said:
Women have their own military units and they normally don't serve in the same roles as men. They may be attached to a male unit for intelligence rolls or to help with females and children on the other side.
not correct

the Caracal is a mixed male/female combat unit.

Caracal Battalion
The Caracal Battalion (33rd Battalion) is a coed infantry battalion in the Israel Defense Forces.

The battalion's namesake, the Caracal cat, is common in the Arava Region of Israel, where the battalion first became operational. The battalion is under the command of the Sagi Regional Brigade in the Southern Command.

Soldiers of the battalion wear a light green beret and red boots. The battalion's badge bears the Caracal cat as well as a sickle and sword, symbolizing the historical connection between Caracal and the Arava Brigade.

The battalion was established in order to integrate women into the IDF's combat system, and is comprised of about one-third men and two-thirds women. Female soldiers who serve in the battalion volunteer for combat service and undergo a special preparation program.

https://www.idf.il/en/mini-sites/ground-forces/border-defense/caracal/caracal-battalion/

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P.U.T.U
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In reply to LMCane • 2:41p, 10/23/23
AG
Good to know, looks like they are a border security unit where they serve in a roll that they know that does not require the same physical strength as other unit like infantry where carrying heavy rucksacks is required.
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LMCane
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2:42p, 10/23/23
It's unbelievable how many Arabs were murdered by Hamas during their massacre.

This guy was a true hero- may his memory be a blessing:

Amer Abu Sabila, 25, died trying to save two young girls in Sderot

On that Saturday morning, more than 50 people were murdered in Sderot by Palestinian Hamas terrorists who infiltrated the community, gunning people down on the street, as dozens of rockets rained down on the town.

Abu Sabila worked in construction and was visiting two of his brothers who worked as guards in Sderot.

Abu Sabila heard the cries of Odaya, whose husband Dolev had been murdered by Hamas terrorists. He attempted to take Dolev's spot in the driver's seat to move the car out of firing range but was shot dead alongside Odaya.

The young girls, aged 3 and 6, lay on the floor of the vehicle and were saved.

Arab Muslim tried to protect Jewish women

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LMCane
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In reply to P.U.T.U • 2:44p, 10/23/23
P.U.T.U said:
Good to know, looks like they are a border security unit where they serve in a roll that they know that does not require the same physical strength as other unit like infantry where carrying heavy rucksacks is required.

Exactly

there was actually an 11 part series on Israel TV showing the infantry training and what the Caracal and the Lions of Judah do.

it was pretty cool to see how they launch ambushes and conduct flanking attacks with flags and suppressing fire.

I think you can find it in the USA on streaming.
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LMCane
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2:54p, 10/23/23
Hamas is ISIS

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TommyBrady
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3:00p, 10/23/23
AG
1 IDF KIA in southern Gaza during a rescue attempt
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Broncos
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3:02p, 10/23/23
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Psycho Bunny
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3:26p, 10/23/23
Media outlets, including NYT, ran with stories before getting full details, often only citing the source as Palestinian health officials and not Hamas

The New York Times published on Monday an editors' note acknowledging its coverage "relied too heavily on claims by Hamas," in regards to an explosion at Gaza City's al-Ahli hospital, admitting that their report "left readers with an incorrect impression about what was known and how credible the account was."

On October 17, officials belonging to the Hamas terrorist organization had blamed an Israeli airstrike for an explosion at the hospital, saying there were over 500 casualties. Many media outlets, including the NYT, ran with the story before full vetting the details, often only citing the source as Palestinian health officials and not the designated terror group.

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Joes
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In reply to YouBet • 4:07p, 10/23/23
YouBet said:
BTHOB said:
And, yet, the USA (and most of the rest of the world plus the media) continue to push for a delay / pause in full-scale ground invasion...

Israel waited too long. After the narrative started to change and the initial atrocities committed by Hamas began to fade into the 'last week' and 'two weeks ago' categories it became predictable that no full-scale ground invasion would take place.

I've predicted for over a week now that only minor ground incursions might take place, but nothing close to the 'full-scale invasion' that's been plastered all over the news. I guess we'll just continue to wait and see...

Unfortunately, if no full-scale ground invasion takes place, we'll be right back here in 5 years (or less) with another senseless terrorist tragedy inflicted upon the Israeli people.


Hope you are wrong but I'm starting to agree with this. This is moving away from a kinetic engagement to a PR War fought in the media. Israel has little chance of winning the latter.

If the strategy of sharing the Hamas raw footage with the media today (or already happened) doesn't work then nothing will work. At that point, you cut your losses and destroy Gaza and let the chips fall where they may. Just not sure if they are going to do it at this point outside of these periodic air sorties.


I've been pessimistic all along that the full effort would be what people here want and expect.

I've also been spending more time today on purpose trying to watch a lot of general big media out of curiosity and it's like I'm living in an alternate world. If you want to make yourself miserable watch the Piers/Cent interview that was posted a half hour ago. It came off like Israel is the heart of all evil in the world and the most racist oppressive people to ever exist. And virtually all the comments I browsed (yeah I know, YouTube comments..) are on the Palestinian side. And Piers' show has generally been pro-Israel in this.

The bottom line is that I see it, and almost all of us here see it, as Hamas as utter barbarians that need to be exterminated, and also that the ones who did the murdering two weeks ago are mostly representative of that whole culture and Palestinians overall. But almost everything I've seen in doing a broad survey today is that Israel's genocide of Arabs must be stopped at all cost. I know people are going to say "Don't watch that ****" but it's important to know what the wider perspective is because it's going to have a massive impact.

Humans are F'ing stupid.
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TH36
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In reply to Joes • 4:40p, 10/23/23
I happened to get an apprentice this week who is of Moroccan decent and Muslim (not one taking part in the religion) and he's blinded as well. I think it's mostly cause he's 19 but he's all about "no innocent people should die on either side" and I keep telling him to tell that to the people who had family members tortured, beheaded, and kidnapped. He laughs like that's fake news but yet he cited the hospital being blown up….which we all know is fake.
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Joes
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In reply to TH36 • 4:54p, 10/23/23
TH36 said:
I happened to get an apprentice this week who is of Moroccan decent and Muslim (not one taking part in the religion) and he's blinded as well. I think it's mostly cause he's 19 but he's all about "no innocent people should die on either side" and I keep telling him to tell that to the people who had family members tortured, beheaded, and kidnapped. He laughs like that's fake news but yet he cited the hospital being blown up….which we all know is fake.


Yep. I swear if Kristallnacht happened with today's media and culture by the next day all we'd be hearing about is deep concern about disproportionate retaliatory attacks against Nazis.

And I'm sorry, but for all those on this thread who keep hyping the "Israel doesn't give a **** what anybody thinks" that's obviously not true or they wouldn't have IDF spokespeople and politicians on every channel stating their case and providing that awful footage to outside media and such. It absolutely does matter to them.

None of this means they won't invade, they still might, but the people here dismissing America's influence and general world opinion on their actions are just way off base I think. That tiny country can't operate in a total vacuum and alienating everyone.
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Rebel Yell
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In reply to No Spin Ag • 6:10p, 10/23/23
AG
No Spin Ag said:
LMCane said:
No Spin Ag said:
LMCane said:
No Spin Ag said:
I haven't followed this thread in a while, but does anyone know if the women in the IDF will be on the front lines when Israel goes into Gaza?

I ask because I know they're required to serve like the men, and they can always be seen in social media clips wearing their uniforms, without or without a weapon.
Good question

there are IDF female fighters in actual combat units in the "Caracal" and the "Lions of Judah" brigades but those are stationed near the Jordan border to combat cross-border smuggling.

they won't be deployed to Gaza.

on the other hand, Hamas terrorists really don't like fighting and dying at the hands of women.



That's cool that they're in combat units. I'd like to think that if they want to be on the front lines when the invasion happen they should be allowed to. I'm sure they're more than capable to killing terrorists.

I only disagree that it makes it very easy for female IDF soldiers to be kidnapped by Hamas in a dense urban war- and that fate is worse than death.

It may even make Hamas fight harder if they know they are fighting women rather than men.


I get where you're coming from, and that is something worse than death, but if being harmed in a way that makes people uncomfortable is a concern then they (only those concerned about that) shouldn't be in the military.
Women can fight equal to men.

And Israel is the nation to do it, because if their military ever loses, the women would be fighting anyway to avoid annihilation.

For me however, it is not about capability, it is about the officers having to give the orders. Men naturally are protective of women. It is ingrained in us.

As a male officer, if there is a high probability that a mission/movement in battle may result in death/capture, the officer will naturally select the men in the unit, or at least hesitate to select the women. Enough of those types of situations and suddenly the men in the unit are being exposed to more and more risk than they would be in an all male unit.

Again this doesn't apply to Israel, but it never seems to be discussed when discussing women in combat.
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Who?mikejones!
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6:39p, 10/23/23
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DCPD158
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In reply to Who?mikejones! • 6:41p, 10/23/23
AG
Agthatbuilds said:
Yea, that would mean we are at war with someone now.
Company I-1, Ord-Ords '85 -12thFan and Websider-
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Raiderjay
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6:55p, 10/23/23
IDF pounding northern Gaza....




And small arms fire....
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Stat Monitor Repairman
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6:56p, 10/23/23


When the US sends advisors in-country things very rarely escalate.

Very rarely.

So we got that going for us, which is nice.
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Joes
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6:57p, 10/23/23
Well, he retracts as often as not, and he says there's no evidence yet. But even if they did how is it fundamentally any different than launching drones at our land bases which they've already been doing?
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Stat Monitor Repairman
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In reply to cslifer • 7:01p, 10/23/23
[Reminder to the board: this thread is for updating and discussing the ongoing conflict between Israel and Hamas. Posts on President Biden's policies and performance as it relates to the conflict are fair game. Posts about 81 million votes, poopy-pants, and his mental state are not. Posts about world reaction to the conflict are generally in scope, while posts about how "liberals ruin everything" are not. Derails are inconsiderate to other posters who are following and commenting on unfolding events. We've left several notes and warnings in this thread. Those who insist on derailing will be given timeouts and they will increase sharply for repeat offenders -- Staff]
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Eliminatus
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In reply to BTHOB • 1:27a, 10/24/23
AG
BTHOB said:
And, yet, the USA (and most of the rest of the world plus the media) continue to push for a delay / pause in full-scale ground invasion...

Israel waited too long. After the narrative started to change and the initial atrocities committed by Hamas began to fade into the 'last week' and 'two weeks ago' categories it became predictable that no full-scale ground invasion would take place.

I've predicted for over a week now that only minor ground incursions might take place, but nothing close to the 'full-scale invasion' that's been plastered all over the news. I guess we'll just continue to wait and see...

Unfortunately, if no full-scale ground invasion takes place, we'll be right back here in 5 years (or less) with another senseless terrorist tragedy inflicted upon the Israeli people.
Maybe/maybe not. I tend to agree but because I believe a general ground invasion right now would do more damage to Israel than most here would believe. I don't think it is so much a "waited too long" as much as "they were not ready and need to be smart".

A quote from me on the 9th:
Quote:
I don't begrudge them for what is about to happen but damn me if I don't think this is ultimately a lose/lose situation either for them.
I am not saying Israel will not be able to meet their immediate tactical objectives but as a total I figure a pyrrhic victory at best. If they get embroiled down in a OIF style occupation, it will probably break Israel. They cannot sustain that for long. If they go Battle of Fallujah method, they will lose a lot of soldiers and likely every single shred of PR they might be clinging to, period. The greatest and most effective HAMAS weapon of all time is a dead Palestinian civilian and there will be tons of them if a open engagement ground invasion occurs. And like it or not, but PR still matters in this world. Even now. Especially negative PR which no one here can deny does not exist and does not have an affect on world actions.

Open fighting in a rubbled city is an f'ing nightmare and negates many tactical advantages of an attacker. Mix in one of the more densely populated cities and the fighting will be nasty from the first seconds if HAMAS decides to fight to the end. I see no possible scenario where Israel emerges from that as a glorious victor. A shellshocked survivor at best maybe.

Ignore the "Glass them" crowd. We are dealing with reality and the reality is that Gaza will likely suck in Israel into a long drawn out battle it cannot hope to sustain for long with the forces it has drawn up. Most of which will be reservists. I have the utmost respect for reservists in general and especially the Israeli model, but in a house to house battle against the arch enemy personified is going to shatter a lot of them. Just look at our PTSD cases from Fallujah and Ramadi. And that is with trained professionals. You are going to be asking school teachers and cashiers into tunnels against a masked enemy who is willing to die in order to see their enemies dead. I've crawled down an Afghani terrorist tunnel before with an M9 and Surefire. I don't wish that on anyone. (Thanks mom and dad for making a 5'6" 150 lbs son)

And all of this is not taking in the better than even odds Israel finds itself in a two front war...

All just my opinion of course and open to discussion/revision. My only real hard stance is Israel should NOT have gone straight into Gaza in the hours/ few days following the 7th. That would have been f'ing stupid on their part. Act, but be smart about it and don't throw your people/nation into situations they are not ready for.

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BTHOB
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In reply to Eliminatus • 5:30a, 10/24/23
AG
Eliminatus said:
BTHOB said:
And, yet, the USA (and most of the rest of the world plus the media) continue to push for a delay / pause in full-scale ground invasion...

Israel waited too long. After the narrative started to change and the initial atrocities committed by Hamas began to fade into the 'last week' and 'two weeks ago' categories it became predictable that no full-scale ground invasion would take place.

I've predicted for over a week now that only minor ground incursions might take place, but nothing close to the 'full-scale invasion' that's been plastered all over the news. I guess we'll just continue to wait and see...

Unfortunately, if no full-scale ground invasion takes place, we'll be right back here in 5 years (or less) with another senseless terrorist tragedy inflicted upon the Israeli people.
Maybe/maybe not. I tend to agree but because I believe a general ground invasion right now would do more damage to Israel than most here would believe. I don't think it is so much a "waited too long" as much as "they were not ready and need to be smart".

A quote from me on the 9th:
Quote:
I don't begrudge them for what is about to happen but damn me if I don't think this is ultimately a lose/lose situation either for them.
I am not saying Israel will not be able to meet their immediate tactical objectives but as a total I figure a pyrrhic victory at best. If they get embroiled down in a OIF style occupation, it will probably break Israel. They cannot sustain that for long. If they go Battle of Fallujah method, they will lose a lot of soldiers and likely every single shred of PR they might be clinging to, period. The greatest and most effective HAMAS weapon of all time is a dead Palestinian civilian and there will be tons of them if a open engagement ground invasion occurs. And like it or not, but PR still matters in this world. Even now. Especially negative PR which no one here can deny does not exist and does not have an affect on world actions.

Open fighting in a rubbled city is an f'ing nightmare and negates many tactical advantages of an attacker. Mix in one of the more densely populated cities and the fighting will be nasty from the first seconds if HAMAS decides to fight to the end. I see no possible scenario where Israel emerges from that as a glorious victor. A shellshocked survivor at best maybe.

Ignore the "Glass them" crowd. We are dealing with reality and the reality is that Gaza will likely suck in Israel into a long drawn out battle it cannot hope to sustain for long with the forces it has drawn up. Most of which will be reservists. I have the utmost respect for reservists in general and especially the Israeli model, but in a house to house battle against the arch enemy personified is going to shatter a lot of them. Just look at our PTSD cases from Fallujah and Ramadi. And that is with trained professionals. You are going to be asking school teachers and cashiers into tunnels against a masked enemy who is willing to die in order to see their enemies dead. I've crawled down an Afghani terrorist tunnel before with an M9 and Surefire. I don't wish that on anyone. (Thanks mom and dad for making a 5'6" 150 lbs son)

And all of this is not taking in the better than even odds Israel finds itself in a two front war...

All just my opinion of course and open to discussion/revision. My only real hard stance is Israel should NOT have gone straight into Gaza in the hours/ few days following the 7th. That would have been f'ing stupid on their part. Act, but be smart about it and don't throw your people/nation into situations they are not ready for.



This seems like a well-reasoned response.
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nortex97
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6:12a, 10/24/23
AG


Sigh…it is probable this conflict with escalate with much more widespread violence in Europe/here with the propaganda that will skyrocket during the ground operation.



Still funny…



Not really funny;



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nortex97
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7:27a, 10/24/23
AG


Based on the Afghanistan 'success' I am sure we all expect this to work out great; 600,000 Americans in Lebanon/Israel?
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LMCane
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8:09a, 10/24/23
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$3 Sack of Groceries
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In reply to LMCane • 8:19a, 10/24/23
AG
Dude….it's posted two posts above yours. I could maybe understand if it's been a few pages but y'all gotta at least try to make the effort to keep up with the thread.
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LMCane
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8:25a, 10/24/23
LMCane
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8:26a, 10/24/23
No Gore-

but if you watch this and don't tear up a bit you aren't a decent human being.

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BadMoonRisin
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In reply to nortex97 • 8:26a, 10/24/23
AG
nortex97 said:
Damn, I had no idea that they had orthodontics for 35 year old men in an "open air prison". Or a producer for their gay music videos.

This open air prison is LIT!
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YouBet
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In reply to nortex97 • 8:39a, 10/24/23
AG
nortex97 said:


Based on the Afghanistan 'success' I am sure we all expect this to work out great; 600,000 Americans in Lebanon/Israel?


Called it on the reason for two carrier groups.
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