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The debate over capital punishment is taking an interesting turn in Alabama this month and it may turn out to be a moment where those of us who don't oppose the death penalty ask, 'How did we not think of this before?' Many states are having trouble obtaining the required cocktail of drugs to use in lethal injection cases because of activists in the pharmaceutical industry. States have abandoned both the electric chair and the gas chamber as being too "barbaric." Firing squads still work and are available in some states, but many people similarly find them offputting. But now Alabama is looking at carrying out its next execution using nitrogen hypoxia. (Associated Press)

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Alabama is seeking to become the first state to execute a prisoner by making him breathe pure nitrogen.

The Alabama attorney general's office on Friday asked the state Supreme Court to set an execution date for death row inmate Kenneth Smith. Alabama plans to put him to death by nitrogen hypoxia, an execution method that is authorized in three states but has never been used.

Nitrogen hypoxia is caused by forcing the inmate to breathe only nitrogen, depriving them of oxygen and causing them to pass out and die, according to the theory.

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The method is fairly straightforward. You secure the prisoner in a space where all of the normal air has been pumped out and replaced with pure nitrogen. Nitrogen is colorless and odorless and you're breathing a lot of it right now while reading this. It makes up the majority of the atmosphere. But without the 21% of the atmosphere made up of oxygen, people don't last very long in it.

As you would expect, the AP is fretting over this, calling the solution "untested" and equating it to "human experimentation." But that's really not true. It's untested on humans as a means of execution, but it's been used on all manner of animals in the past and it's quite effective. It should also be seen as "more humane" than the other methods I listed (assuming that's a priority for you in cases of capital punishment). Research done by Iowa State University on lab animals showed that all subjects became unconscious within one minute and died with no signs of pain.

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Plenty of people have died from this effect over the years, though not via intentional execution. Pilots used to die from hypoxia on a regular basis, including one named Thomas Mantell who gained fame when he perished while pursuing a UFO in 1948. He was diverted from a routine training mission over Kentucky and ordered to investigate a large, bizarrely shaped object that had entered the airspace over Fort Knox. He climbed above 20,000 feet to get a look at it but his plane either didn't have oxygen masks installed or he had run out. His plane crashed a few miles away, apparently after running out of fuel. He was believed to have passed out from hypoxia. (Rumors that he had been shot down by aliens did not prove convincing to most people.) There's even a monument on the site of his crash.

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Via Hot Air

Thoughts?

I'm fine with that... of course I'd also be fine with about anything so long as we unequivocally know they're guilty of the convicted crime. I doubt they made sure their victims died without "cruel or unusual" means... dead is dead. I don't much care how.

This has been proposed for years, just never gained traction until the drug companies started blocking access to the drugs used for execution.

Should have been done a long time ago since it is a painless death, thus very hard for the anti-death penalty activists to make an 8 Amendment claim, and it is one of the few execution methods that allows for organ donation. Right now, only hanging and firing squad make that option available.

I've always thought the best method is public execution by hanging.

Do whatever is allowed for abortions.

Let the victims next of kin double tap to the back of the head.

We are way over complicating tall tree and short rope.

I am fully supportive of those found guilty of sedition and/or treason being given this penalty under law. Not that I am thinking of anyone in particular, but it brings a smile to my face.

Would a tank full of water be cheaper?

I am fine with any method, actually, once guilt has been 100% determined.

Guillotine
Hanging
Firing squad
Injection
This nitrogen treatment
Sharks, alligators, or big-ass pigs
Free helicopter rides
Electric chair
Gas chamber

But again, only when guilt has been 100% determined. This has long been my stance, but ……..

On the other hand, with the number of idiots running around making claims about this or that being settled because of "science", eh, I mean politics, I have hesitation on giving government this kind of power. One could say that this is an evolution in my thinking on the death penalty, I suppose.

Rope and a tree. Readily available, almost cost free, and reusable.

This is how we euthanize chickens we use for bird strike tests. Works great.

Funny that those activists aren't worried about drug cocktails given for assisted suicide

Cinco Ranch Aggie said:

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I am fine with any method, actually, once guilt has been 100% determined.

Guillotine
Hanging
Firing squad
Injection
This nitrogen treatment
Sharks, alligators, or big-ass pigs
Free helicopter rides
Electric chair
Gas chamber

But again, only when guilt has been 100% determined. This has long been my stance, but ……..

On the other hand, with the number of idiots running around making claims about this or that being settled because of "science", eh, I mean politics, I have hesitation on giving government this kind of power. One could say that this is an evolution in my thinking on the death penalty, I suppose.

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Decent points

People die on the street everyday from fentanyl overdoses. The absolute most pain free method would be a 3 gram dose. Wouldn't even have to subject the condemned to an IV placement as it can be injected IM into the shoulder or butt. You can't tell me that we couldn't foreign source it by the pound if a domestic pharm company refused to provide it.

But sure, nitrogen would be acceptable IMO.

I know I'll get flamed for this, but OP did ask for thoughts. I have no objection to using N hypoxia. However, I strongly believe capital punished should be banned.

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On the other hand, with the number of idiots running around making claims about this or that being settled because of "science", eh, I mean politics, I have hesitation on giving government this kind of power. One could say that this is an evolution in my thinking on the death penalty, I suppose.

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Why I posted this. Familar with oxygen deprivation to the brain and build-ups of carbon in the bloodstream but had never heard about nitrogen being used. ETA and carbon monoxide poisoning.

So I asked.

Raise the standard for capital punishment and carry out the sentence within 30 days or so.

Death by snu snu...

Ag with kids said:

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Death by snu snu...

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No longer considered cruel nor that unusual it would seem...

aggiehawg said:

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On the other hand, with the number of idiots running around making claims about this or that being settled because of "science", eh, I mean politics, I have hesitation on giving government this kind of power. One could say that this is an evolution in my thinking on the death penalty, I suppose.

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Why I posted this. Familar with oxygen deprivation to the brain and build-ups of carbon in the bloodstream but had never heard about nitrogen being used. ETA and carbon monoxide poisoning.

So I asked.

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This one is pretty much not in doubt.

Human breathing is not regulated by oxygen in the blood, it is regulated by Co2 in the blood. Your respiratory rate speeds up and slows down based on co2 in the blood, not oxygen. When the alarms go off in your body telling you need air (holding your breath, swimming underwater, etc) it's not that you need oxygen, it's that you need to remove co2 from your body. The panic that can ensue from not being able to breath is, again, caused by a build up of co2, not a lack of oxygen.

And it makes sense biologically speaking. Oxygen is exceedingly abundant in the air, while co2 is scarce. So signals from co2 are going to be far more sensitive in the natural world (in other words, if you have enough air to remove co2 from your blood, you are guaranteed to have enough oxygen).

But if you are in a room where you can efficiently remove co2 but not take in oxygen, those reflexes never receive a warning signal, and as the article states, your body sleepily shuts down, and then you expire.

Whether you are for or against the death penalty, in terms of methods, this is a simple, straightforward, and painless method if death is to be administered.

Firing squads and hanging are much cheaper and easier. Just saying.

Why not carbon monoxide poisoning? Discussed this with a doctor and he said is peaceful and basically you just go to sleep. If anyone can do it by sitting in a running car in their garage, shouldn't be hard to do for an execution.

goatchze said:

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aggiehawg said:

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On the other hand, with the number of idiots running around making claims about this or that being settled because of "science", eh, I mean politics, I have hesitation on giving government this kind of power. One could say that this is an evolution in my thinking on the death penalty, I suppose.

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Why I posted this. Familar with oxygen deprivation to the brain and build-ups of carbon in the bloodstream but had never heard about nitrogen being used. ETA and carbon monoxide poisoning.

So I asked.

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This one is pretty much not in doubt.

Human breathing is not regulated by oxygen in the blood, it is regulated by Co2 in the blood. Your respiratory rate speeds up and slows down based on co2 in the blood, not oxygen. When the alarms go off in your body telling you need air (holding your breath, swimming underwater, etc) it's not that you need oxygen, it's that you need to remove co2 from your body. The panic that can ensue from not being able to breath is, again, caused by a build up of co2, not a lack of oxygen.

And it makes sense biologically speaking. Oxygen is exceedingly abundant in the air, while co2 is scarce. So signals from co2 are going to be far more sensitive in the natural world (in other words, if you have enough air to remove co2 from your blood, you are guaranteed to have enough oxygen).

But if you are in a room where you can efficiently remove co2 but not take in oxygen, those reflexes never receive a warning signal, and as the article states, your body sleepily shuts down, and then you expire.

Whether you are for or against the death penalty, in terms of methods, this is a simple, straightforward, and painless method if death is to be administered.

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Is there a difference physically between carbon monoide poisoning? Thank you for the response, BTW.

Gigem_94 said:

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Why not carbon monoxide poisoning? Discussed this with a doctor and he said is peaceful and basically you just go to sleep. If anyone can do it by sitting in a running car in their garage, shouldn't be hard to do for an execution.

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The cherry-red coloration of the skin is most characteristic appearance of the body surface is in CO poisoning cases. This is usually observed with CO-Hb concentrations exceeding 30 % [60]. Autopsy reveals blood, organs and muscles with similar cherry-red coloring, by the CO-Hb and carboxymyoglobin formation. Pulmonary edema and generalized organ congestion are also observed [60].

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The skin's appearance with CO would be my best guess

What do they give dogs? They just pass out and are dead in about 5 seconds. No yelping or struggling, just lights out and quickly. Why can't we do that?

Rapier108 said:

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This has been proposed for years, just never gained traction until the drug companies started blocking access to the drugs used for execution.

Should have been done a long time ago since it is a painless death, thus very hard for the anti-death penalty activists to make an 8 Amendment claim, and it is one of the few execution methods that allows for organ donation. Right now, only hanging and firing squad make that option available.

I've always thought the best method is public execution by hanging.

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So what happens? Just a calm passing out and then death?

ts5641 said:

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What do they give dogs? They just pass out and are dead in about 5 seconds. No yelping or struggling, just lights out and quickly. Why can't we do that?

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I don't know. Not a vet.

ts5641 said:

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What do they give dogs? They just pass out and are dead in about 5 seconds. No yelping or struggling, just lights out and quickly. Why can't we do that?

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We tried to do that with lethal injection but the pharm activists won't sell them the drugs. Lethal injection uses the same exact drugs as a general anesthesia for surgery with the notable exception of mechanical respiration and/or rescue efforts. If you've ever had surgery then you've experienced a simulated "lethal injection" with a wake-up afterwards. Hardly cruel or unusual.


ETA - the specific drug for putting a dog down is pentobarbital. I personally induced 100's of general anesthetics with the same drug before better choices (propofol) became cheap enough for my residency program to switch

agent-maroon said:

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(propofol)

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Milk of amnesia

Funky Winkerbean said:

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Do whatever is allowed for abortions.

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good idea

aggiehawg said:

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goatchze said:

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aggiehawg said:

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On the other hand, with the number of idiots running around making claims about this or that being settled because of "science", eh, I mean politics, I have hesitation on giving government this kind of power. One could say that this is an evolution in my thinking on the death penalty, I suppose.

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Why I posted this. Familar with oxygen deprivation to the brain and build-ups of carbon in the bloodstream but had never heard about nitrogen being used. ETA and carbon monoxide poisoning.

So I asked.

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This one is pretty much not in doubt.

Human breathing is not regulated by oxygen in the blood, it is regulated by Co2 in the blood. Your respiratory rate speeds up and slows down based on co2 in the blood, not oxygen. When the alarms go off in your body telling you need air (holding your breath, swimming underwater, etc) it's not that you need oxygen, it's that you need to remove co2 from your body. The panic that can ensue from not being able to breath is, again, caused by a build up of co2, not a lack of oxygen.

And it makes sense biologically speaking. Oxygen is exceedingly abundant in the air, while co2 is scarce. So signals from co2 are going to be far more sensitive in the natural world (in other words, if you have enough air to remove co2 from your blood, you are guaranteed to have enough oxygen).

But if you are in a room where you can efficiently remove co2 but not take in oxygen, those reflexes never receive a warning signal, and as the article states, your body sleepily shuts down, and then you expire.

Whether you are for or against the death penalty, in terms of methods, this is a simple, straightforward, and painless method if death is to be administered.

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Is there a difference physically between carbon monoide poisoning? Thank you for the response, BTW.

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Yes and no.

Essentially no difference: with CO poisoning, your body becomes deprived of oxygen without the body knowing because the body is still able to remove co2. So no alarms sound. That's what makes it so dangerous; you don't know it's happening.

But there's also a difference: CO poisoning is a slightly different phenomenon because the body gets deprived of oxygen even though there is sufficient oxygen moving in and out of the lungs to sustain life. The body preferentially displaces the oxygen in the blood with CO, which is a different cause of the hypoxia. In the proposed execution method, oxygen doesn't get into the blood because it is removed from the air in the first place, so it's simply not available for uptake.

The experience, though, would be pretty much the same if the CO poisoning was acute and fast (I.e. not a long term of short exposures but a short term, heavy exposure to CO).

Thanks. So the nitrogen hypoxia works faster than CO poisoning, I take it?

Again, thank you for your response.