Eminent domain for a HS stadium parking lot

7,710 Views | 63 Replies | Last: 10 mo ago by knoxtom
waitwhat?
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1:17a, 8/22/23
https://reason.com/2023/08/18/texas-school-district-threatens-to-seize-79-year-old-mans-home-for-stadium-parking-lot/

Not going to bother with a quote. The jist is that a Houston area school district will use eminent domain to seize a man's property for a high school football stadium parking lot.

I've always been iffy on eminent domain, but accepted it when it comes to railroads, airports, highways, etc. because of the extent of economic benefit. But there is no economic benefit here, it's just a high school football stadium.

In what way could this be a justified use of eminent domain?
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C@LAg
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1:49a, 8/22/23
they need to sod asbestos all across the property .

stat
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HollywoodBQ
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2:53a, 8/22/23
AG
The article described what the main problem is,
Quote:
The land has been in Upchurch's family since 1916 when his relatives first immigrated to the area from Sweden.
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Tibbers
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3:21a, 8/22/23
that's some absolute bull*****
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eric76
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3:49a, 8/22/23
AG
I detest eminent domain with a passion. There is rarely, if ever, any need to use it. It is nothing more than a practice used by people who do not believe in Capitalism and Free Markets.
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Martin Q. Blank
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In reply to HollywoodBQ • 4:46a, 8/22/23
HollywoodBQ said:
The article described what the main problem is,
Quote:
The land has been in Upchurch's family since 1916 when his relatives first immigrated to the area from Sweden.
ah…he's white. But when planners needed to use eminent domain to reconstruct 45, Hidalgo and Co. were up in arms because it would take away people's homes. I'll let you guess the race of the homeowners.
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fixer
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5:15a, 8/22/23
With friends like Appraisal Districts and School Districts, who needs Democrats?
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WhoopN06
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In reply to fixer • 5:23a, 8/22/23
fixer said:
With friends like Appraisal Districts and School Districts, who needs Democrats?
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jpb1999
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In reply to eric76 • 5:35a, 8/22/23
AG
eric76 said:
I detest eminent domain with a passion. There is rarely, if ever, any need to use it. It is nothing more than a practice used by people who do not believe in Capitalism and Free Markets.


While I agree with the overall sentiment, the only proper use of it is with public utilities or road extension. NOT for economic best use. Also state law requires appraisals and any relocation costs to be included, and in my experience most times the settlements come in well over the economic best use appraised value.
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BlackGoldAg2011
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In reply to eric76 • 5:45a, 8/22/23
AG
eric76 said:
I detest eminent domain with a passion. There is rarely, if ever, any need to use it. It is nothing more than a practice used by people who do not believe in Capitalism and Free Markets.
Just another piece of evidence that personal property ownership is actually a myth and we are all just leasing it from the state.
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CheeseSndwch
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6:08a, 8/22/23
This story needs more Killdozer.
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AgCPA95
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6:08a, 8/22/23
AG
Regardless of your opinion on the situation, check out the map of WW Thorne stadium in Houston. As the daughter said, they are pretty much AISD parking lot. Reminds me of old HGTV show Homestead Holdouts.
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Sterling82
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6:30a, 8/22/23
I doubt that particular parking lot is ever full. The few games I've attended there were sparsely attended.
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LostInLA07
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6:36a, 8/22/23
AG
The life estate seems like a very reasonable offer from the family. I'd want to know why the ISD didn't accept that.

With that said, I agree with everyone else that eminent domain should be restricted to utility transmission / distribution easements (not for generation facilities) and roads. Maybe there is some carve out for essential other public uses when no other alternative exists, but the ISD could have not upgraded their stadium capacity beyond available parking (athletics aren't an essential government activity) or they could have built a parking garage. They probably could also have used offsite parking and used busses to take people to the game if that extra capacity was so critical.

I think it was last year that San Antonio took someone's business to make a gift shop.

The legislature needs to severely restrict eminent domain by municipalities.
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StandUpforAmerica
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In reply to Sterling82 • 6:39a, 8/22/23
Sterling82 said:
I doubt that particular parking lot is ever full. The few games I've attended there were sparsely attended.
This. I can't imagine it ever being close to full.
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Logos Stick
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6:42a, 8/22/23
Looking at the aerial photo, I notice they have plenty of green space for beautification around the stadium. More than enough to carve out the extra parking they want. But no, that would not allow them to gaze upon their beautiful idol. Instead, they will take the old man's home for ****ing high school football!!!

Taj majal football stadiums should be outlawed.
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Logos Stick
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In reply to Sterling82 • 6:43a, 8/22/23
Sterling82 said:
I doubt that particular parking lot is ever full. The few games I've attended there were sparsely attended.

Agree. The parking lot is huge!
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fc2112
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7:07a, 8/22/23
I'm gonna guess his house is where I dropped a pin. They really need that?

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IndividualFreedom
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In reply to waitwhat? • 7:09a, 8/22/23
Quote:
In what way could this be a justified use of eminent domain?
But we gotta let the govt. do it..... Friday Night Lights man.

Yet another reason for school choice.
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Logos Stick
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In reply to fc2112 • 7:18a, 8/22/23
No, it's the land and house by the road in the middle of the parking lot.
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TRADUCTOR
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7:24a, 8/22/23
Peepaw surrounded by high school parking...sounds like hell now. Move him to nice hill with trees, birds, ducks, and pine cones.
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AgCPA95
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7:32a, 8/22/23
AG
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FarmerJohn
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7:41a, 8/22/23
AG
Eminent domain should have the option for a jury trial.
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misterguinness
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7:45a, 8/22/23
AG
Seems like now is the time for him to live out that fantasy of flying to South America. All he needs is several hundred balloons!
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LostInLA07
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In reply to AgCPA95 • 7:46a, 8/22/23
AG
Wow, there are so many alternatives here.

1) Move the bus parking somewhere else and utilize that space for additional stadium parking.
2) Use some of the green "beautification" areas closer to the stadium for parking until the life estate ends.

But no, some ISD board members are feeling like super HOA heroes and just HAVE to make sure they have all of the property within their "complex" bordered by the 4 roads.
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Old May Banker
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7:46a, 8/22/23
AG
Not a fan of imminent domain, but based on his home location, he should ask them to pay thru the nose and find a better place. Wouldn't want to live in what's basically a carve out of their parking lot anyway.
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LostInLA07
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In reply to Old May Banker • 7:47a, 8/22/23
AG
They aren't going to pay through the nose. They are going to use eminent domain proceedings to take his property at a value that is less than what he would agree to sell it for. I wouldn't want to live there either but he apparently does. I don't think its all that uncommon for people in that age range to prefer to stay / die in the house they've lived in most of their life.
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LostInLA07
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In reply to FarmerJohn • 7:50a, 8/22/23
AG
Yep, and the government entity should have to prove public necessity and no reasonable alternative exist. This one should fail on the first point because a high school stadium parking lot isn't a public necessity.
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Kvetch
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In reply to eric76 • 7:51a, 8/22/23
AG
eric76 said:
I detest eminent domain with a passion. There is rarely, if ever, any need to use it. It is nothing more than a practice used by people who do not believe in Capitalism and Free Markets.


Not true at all. We would be living in the Stone Age without it. You'd never be able to build a road or lay a utility line.

That's said, this situation appears to be a bit abusive.
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Old May Banker
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In reply to LostInLA07 • 7:53a, 8/22/23
AG
LostInLA07 said:
They aren't going to pay through the nose. They are going to use eminent domain proceedings to take his property at a value that is less than what he would agree to sell it for. I wouldn't want to live there either but he apparently does. I don't think its all that uncommon for people in that age range to prefer to stay / die in the house they've lived in most of their life.

Again, I'm no fan on eminent domain... but even when used, i don't believe they don't get to own it below market value.
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fc2112
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7:54a, 8/22/23
That's really the problem with ED - the ISD has no incentive to be fair in their offer. They can just condemn it

Same thing is happening with that lake near Fairfield - but the state is discovering they chose to f with the wrong developer there. He's pouring $ into the site and the state is squealing about how evil he is. F em.
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LostInLA07
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In reply to Old May Banker • 8:02a, 8/22/23
AG
Correct, they have to pay based on some determination of market value during the eminent domain proceedings, and I believe the amount usually ends a bit higher than "market value" because there are other costs the taking entity has to pay. I'm sure the ISD has already offered "market value." The main issue here is the landowner doesn't want to sell for whatever someone else determined market value to be, so the government entity is going to force the sale for a non essential purpose.

I know there are instances where eminent domain is used because it is mutually agreed between the parties that the current owner will come out ahead, or the taking entity needs to acquire multiple tracts from multiple landowners so negotiating individually isn't feasible. This just isn't one of those cases. A handful of people shouldn't be able to force you to sell your property just because it is adjacent to an existing ISD facility.

I frankly can't think of any use case where an ISD would need eminent domain. The only essential activity they perform is education of students and, unlike roads or distribution lines, schools don't require an exact routing or location to perform that function.
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torrid
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In reply to AgCPA95 • 8:04a, 8/22/23
AG
AgCPA95 said:
Regardless of your opinion on the situation, check out the map of WW Thorne stadium in Houston. As the daughter said, they are pretty much AISD parking lot. Reminds me of old HGTV show Homestead Holdouts.
The property is junky and overgrown. But it's HIS property.
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Ag with kids
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In reply to AgCPA95 • 8:19a, 8/22/23
AG
AgCPA95 said:
Regardless of your opinion on the situation, check out the map of WW Thorne stadium in Houston. As the daughter said, they are pretty much AISD parking lot. Reminds me of old HGTV show Homestead Holdouts.
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Kansas Kid
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In reply to Old May Banker • 8:19a, 8/22/23
Old May Banker said:
Not a fan of imminent domain, but based on his home location, he should ask them to pay thru the nose and find a better place. Wouldn't want to live in what's basically a carve out of their parking lot anyway.

While a lot of people wouldn't want to live in that situation, it is his home and all of the memories that have been made there. I can't believe the school really needs that space and they could do the living trust with full cooperation of the family to gain control of the property in the long run.

Eminent domain should be rare and the exception and a football parking lot doesn't even come close to where it should apply.
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