Fraction is a misleading word use.

Damage amounts is what to examine, not the rate or fraction of incident.

jt2hunt said:

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We need to be looking at the rate of fires by cars made in 2023, 2022, 2021, and 2020. Breakdown the gas, hybrid, and electric by the year made.

We do not have this data to support an argument from either side of this debate. However, we cannot ignore rate of incident increases as cars age.

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Then perhaps maybe it's fair for both sides to not even bring up fires with such a serious lack of data?

Teslag said:

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jt2hunt said:

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We need to be looking at the rate of fires by cars made in 2023, 2022, 2021, and 2020. Breakdown the gas, hybrid, and electric by the year made.

We do not have this data to support an argument from either side of this debate. However, we cannot ignore rate of incident increases as cars age.

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Then perhaps maybe it's fair for both sides to not even bring up fires with such a serious lack of data?

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He really came up with "lets just agree to stop talking about the problem"

There is no "problem".

Teslag said:

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jt2hunt said:

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We need to be looking at the rate of fires by cars made in 2023, 2022, 2021, and 2020. Breakdown the gas, hybrid, and electric by the year made.

We do not have this data to support an argument from either side of this debate. However, we cannot ignore rate of incident increases as cars age.

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Then perhaps maybe it's fair for both sides to not even bring up fires with such a serious lack of data?

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Oh I think we've got plenty of data to show that parked/garaged EVs pose a significant fire hazard. Go back and see tons of recent news articles posted in this thread and others.

Quote:

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Go back and see tons of recent news articles posted in this thread and others.

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"tons"

Teslag said:

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Quote:

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Go back and see tons of recent news articles posted in this thread and others.

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"tons"

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Yup. Beats the anecdata you've been posting.

techno-ag said:

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Teslag said:

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Quote:

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Go back and see tons of recent news articles posted in this thread and others.

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"tons"

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Yup. Beats the anecdata you've been posting.

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You just use "articles" as your data and you're accusing people of anecdotes?

Teslag said:

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techno-ag said:

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Teslag said:

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Quote:

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Go back and see tons of recent news articles posted in this thread and others.

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"tons"

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Yup. Beats the anecdata you've been posting.

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You just use "articles" as your data and you're accusing people of anecdotes?

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Absolutely. Where's your published data?

Was posted a few pages back by the NTSB.

And I've posted many articles about ICE fires. Which now seem to be the rock hard data you rely on.

Teslag said:

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And I've posted many articles about ICE fires. Which now seem to be the rock hard data you rely on.

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None while plugged in a garage tho.

But some while just sitting in a garage or driveway not plugged into anything.

I have mostly ignored this thread, but I went back a couple pages. SO if this point has already been made, please forgive me.

In speaking of parked unattended spontaneous combustion, I would think it is safe to say that ICE vehicles that spontaneously combust do so mostly because of a defect in the electrical system sparking off a fire or some other external factor like something in the cargo, which can happen in an EV too.

It seems far more appropriate to look at the primary difference between these two vehicle systems, the energy source and it's storage. Independent of all other factors, most of which are shared by both systems, it seems quite evident that there is an inherently greater risk of a lithium-ion battery spontaneously combusting compared to a tank of gasoline or diesel.

On a side note, our house nearly burned down a couple of weeks ago from an exploding lithium-ion battery on a charger. Thankfully my wife was home to put out the fire before it spread.

Quote:

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It seems far more appropriate to look at the primary difference between these two vehicle systems, the energy source and it's storage. Independent of all other factors, most of which are shared by both systems, it seems quite evident that there is an inherently greater risk of a lithium-ion battery spontaneously combusting compared to a tank of gasoline or diesel.

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Yet, the data just doesn't show this.

Teslag said:

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Quote:

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It seems far more appropriate to look at the primary difference between these two vehicle systems, the energy source and it's storage. Independent of all other factors, most of which are shared by both systems, it seems quite evident that there is an inherently greater risk of a lithium-ion battery spontaneously combusting compared to a tank of gasoline or diesel.

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Yet, the data just doesn't show this.

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This is a misleading statement!

The data shows cars of all ages.

EV have only been around a short time.

The age of a vehicle is an important data point that we do not have access to the statistics.

Teslag said:

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Quote:

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It seems far more appropriate to look at the primary difference between these two vehicle systems, the energy source and it's storage. Independent of all other factors, most of which are shared by both systems, it seems quite evident that there is an inherently greater risk of a lithium-ion battery spontaneously combusting compared to a tank of gasoline or diesel.

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Yet, the data just doesn't show this.

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Show me data of gas tanks exploding on their own versus lithium batteries. Just on their own, not in a vehicle system.

It's only "misleading" because it doesnt support your preconceived bias.

American Hardwood said:

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Teslag said:

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Quote:

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It seems far more appropriate to look at the primary difference between these two vehicle systems, the energy source and it's storage. Independent of all other factors, most of which are shared by both systems, it seems quite evident that there is an inherently greater risk of a lithium-ion battery spontaneously combusting compared to a tank of gasoline or diesel.

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Yet, the data just doesn't show this.

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Show me data of gas tanks exploding on their own versus lithium batteries. Just on their own, not in a vehicle system.

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Everything under the hood of an ice bomb is fair game. The simplicity of the EV is an advantage, and apparently far less deadly.

Teslag said:

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It's only "misleading" because it doesnt support your preconceived bias.

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No!

It is misleading because you cannot say one way or another that ev have a lower rate than ice vehicles less than 1,2 or 3 years old.

It may or may not be true.


What we do know is that a fire caused by li ion batteries in ev is more damaging than an ice fire, regardless of age.

The problem with talking about "vehicle fires" is that, unless you can identify the actual reason for the fire in the first place, the data doesn't tell you which platform is worse. I suspect that electrical subsystems are a significant source for spontaneous fire and both vehicle platforms are vulnerable to this, especially with age.

Teslag said:

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American Hardwood said:

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Teslag said:

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Quote:

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It seems far more appropriate to look at the primary difference between these two vehicle systems, the energy source and it's storage. Independent of all other factors, most of which are shared by both systems, it seems quite evident that there is an inherently greater risk of a lithium-ion battery spontaneously combusting compared to a tank of gasoline or diesel.

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Yet, the data just doesn't show this.

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Show me data of gas tanks exploding on their own versus lithium batteries. Just on their own, not in a vehicle system.

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Everything under the hood of an ice bomb is fair game. The simplicity of the EV is an advantage, and apparently far less deadly.

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That's just a crock.

American Hardwood said:

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Teslag said:

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American Hardwood said:

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Teslag said:

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Quote:

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It seems far more appropriate to look at the primary difference between these two vehicle systems, the energy source and it's storage. Independent of all other factors, most of which are shared by both systems, it seems quite evident that there is an inherently greater risk of a lithium-ion battery spontaneously combusting compared to a tank of gasoline or diesel.

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Yet, the data just doesn't show this.

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Show me data of gas tanks exploding on their own versus lithium batteries. Just on their own, not in a vehicle system.

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Everything under the hood of an ice bomb is fair game. The simplicity of the EV is an advantage, and apparently far less deadly.

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That's just a crock.

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Of course it's a crock. And he has no data to back it up, just his feelings.

techno-ag said:

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American Hardwood said:

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Teslag said:

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American Hardwood said:

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Teslag said:

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Quote:

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It seems far more appropriate to look at the primary difference between these two vehicle systems, the energy source and it's storage. Independent of all other factors, most of which are shared by both systems, it seems quite evident that there is an inherently greater risk of a lithium-ion battery spontaneously combusting compared to a tank of gasoline or diesel.

---

Yet, the data just doesn't show this.

---

Show me data of gas tanks exploding on their own versus lithium batteries. Just on their own, not in a vehicle system.

---

Everything under the hood of an ice bomb is fair game. The simplicity of the EV is an advantage, and apparently far less deadly.

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That's just a crock.

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Of course it's a crock. And he has no data to back it up, just his feelings.

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Strip away all the accompanying equipment and an ICE is a simpler mechanical system than the electronic one required for an EV.

American Hardwood said:

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The problem with talking about "vehicle fires" is that, unless you can identify the actual reason for the fire in the first place, the data doesn't tell you which platform is worse. I suspect that electrical subsystems are a significant source for spontaneous fire and both vehicle platforms are vulnerable to this, especially with age.

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Then would you agree that a fire started at an electrical outlet in the garage shouldn't count as a battery fire in the stats?

tk for tu juan said:

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American Hardwood said:

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The problem with talking about "vehicle fires" is that, unless you can identify the actual reason for the fire in the first place, the data doesn't tell you which platform is worse. I suspect that electrical subsystems are a significant source for spontaneous fire and both vehicle platforms are vulnerable to this, especially with age.

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Then would you agree that a fire started at an electrical outlet in the garage shouldn't count as a battery fire in the stats?

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Only if the fire at the outlet was caused by some sort of overcurrent from the charging system. If the outlet caught fire because of bad wiring or poor installation, then no, that isn't the fault of the EV system and should not count against it.

ETA: I would say the same thing for an ICE on a battery charger. If it's a bad charger or bad wiring, it isn't the ICE's fault.

American Hardwood said:

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techno-ag said:

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American Hardwood said:

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Teslag said:

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American Hardwood said:

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Teslag said:

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Quote:

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It seems far more appropriate to look at the primary difference between these two vehicle systems, the energy source and it's storage. Independent of all other factors, most of which are shared by both systems, it seems quite evident that there is an inherently greater risk of a lithium-ion battery spontaneously combusting compared to a tank of gasoline or diesel.

---

Yet, the data just doesn't show this.

---

Show me data of gas tanks exploding on their own versus lithium batteries. Just on their own, not in a vehicle system.

---

Everything under the hood of an ice bomb is fair game. The simplicity of the EV is an advantage, and apparently far less deadly.

---

That's just a crock.

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Of course it's a crock. And he has no data to back it up, just his feelings.

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Strip away all the accompanying equipment and an ICE is a simpler mechanical system than the electronic one required for an EV.

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An ICE vehicle
- uses way less rare earth metals
- does not rely on electricity from the grid to charge it up
- won't catch on fire while plugged in
- if it does catch on fire is easier to put out
- has over a century of technical improvements
- less prone to government control

American Hardwood said:

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tk for tu juan said:

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American Hardwood said:

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The problem with talking about "vehicle fires" is that, unless you can identify the actual reason for the fire in the first place, the data doesn't tell you which platform is worse. I suspect that electrical subsystems are a significant source for spontaneous fire and both vehicle platforms are vulnerable to this, especially with age.

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Then would you agree that a fire started at an electrical outlet in the garage shouldn't count as a battery fire in the stats?

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Only if the fire at the outlet was caused by some sort of overcurrent from the charging system. If the outlet caught fire because of bad wiring or poor installation, then no, that isn't the fault of the EV system and should not count against it.

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The biggest risk in charging in the garage is using an outlet not built for 100% duty cycle, and it gets worse as the contacts get dirty and loose, increasing the resistance/heat in the outlet/wiring. Teslas are suppose to detect the voltage variance and shutdown charging, the wall chargers also have a thermal fuse as an additional layer of safety.

tk for tu juan said:

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American Hardwood said:

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tk for tu juan said:

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American Hardwood said:

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The problem with talking about "vehicle fires" is that, unless you can identify the actual reason for the fire in the first place, the data doesn't tell you which platform is worse. I suspect that electrical subsystems are a significant source for spontaneous fire and both vehicle platforms are vulnerable to this, especially with age.

---

Then would you agree that a fire started at an electrical outlet in the garage shouldn't count as a battery fire in the stats?

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Only if the fire at the outlet was caused by some sort of overcurrent from the charging system. If the outlet caught fire because of bad wiring or poor installation, then no, that isn't the fault of the EV system and should not count against it.

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The biggest risk in charging in the garage is using an outlet not built for 100% duty cycle, and it gets worse as the contacts get dirty and loose, increasing the resistance/heat in the outlet/wiring. Teslas are suppose to detect the voltage variance and shutdown charging, the wall chargers also have a thermal fuse as an additional layer of safety.

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There is some gray areas that would have to be looked at on a case-by-case basis I think. That's why I think it is important to look at the combustibility of the basic engine/fuel platform aside from all other external factors.

One might validly argue that the charging system is an inseparable part of the EV system and can't be discounted.

American Hardwood said:

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techno-ag said:

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American Hardwood said:

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Teslag said:

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American Hardwood said:

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Teslag said:

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Quote:

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It seems far more appropriate to look at the primary difference between these two vehicle systems, the energy source and it's storage. Independent of all other factors, most of which are shared by both systems, it seems quite evident that there is an inherently greater risk of a lithium-ion battery spontaneously combusting compared to a tank of gasoline or diesel.

---

Yet, the data just doesn't show this.

---

Show me data of gas tanks exploding on their own versus lithium batteries. Just on their own, not in a vehicle system.

---

Everything under the hood of an ice bomb is fair game. The simplicity of the EV is an advantage, and apparently far less deadly.

---

That's just a crock.

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Of course it's a crock. And he has no data to back it up, just his feelings.

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Strip away all the accompanying equipment and an ICE is a simpler mechanical system than the electronic one required for an EV.

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Stat Monitor Repairman said:

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Conincidentially,

had a house burnt down near my hood last week. Fire started in the garage.

Stay tuned on whether it was ev related.

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Ran into a neighbor the other day that knew the details.

EV fire in the garage destroyed the garage and half the house.

Thats too bad

Lucky his neighbors houses weren't impacted. I would like to see some HOA's adopt EV rules about garages. Maybe restrict them to carports or drives only/specified distance from dwelling structures.

We should send Teslag over there to assure her that an ICE car would have done the same thing.

Logos Stick said:

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We should send Teslag over there to assure her that an ICE car would have done the same thing.

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https://cafemom.com/news/216603-family-dies-carbon-monoxide-poisoning/269610-the_incident_happened_on_november_28_when_mora_was_getting_ready_to_take_his_kids_to_school_nbsp

This family would still be alive if they had an EV.

We can play this game all day.