On todays thread, we cover "but what if Putin wakes up and suddenly goes home" and other delusions from the Ukelele hopeful.

Hope isn't a strategy. Delusions don't warrant discussion. HTH.

Yesterday was "objective sources" and today I also failed to sufficiently endorse the fantasy Putin will just surrender on all terms. Pretty dang funny exchanges.

PlaneCrashGuy said:

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Hope isn't a strategy.

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That is quite literally Russia's current strategy as they currently go to war with rusted weapons and conscripts.

nortex97 said:

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Yesterday was "objective sources" and today I also failed to sufficiently endorse the fantasy Putin will just surrender on all terms. Pretty dang funny exchanges.

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I get it though, if you said you'd be happy if Putin went home you'd also be admitting that you understand the war is 100% Russia's fault and have to give up the strange need to blame literally everyone else besides the people doing the invading. So it's a tough balance to strike.

Teslag said:

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TAMUallen said:

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We've given off enough "old" and new stuff that we won't be replenished to defend ourselves against an actual threat at our doorstep. Seems very Bidenesque

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What country is capable of bringing a threat to our doorstep?

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We're being destroyed from within our borders.

edit: Typo

MouthBQ98 said:

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We can jump up production quickly if we need to. We are still an immense industrial power and artillery ammunition isn't that sophisticated of a product.

What enemy are we likely to engage in an artillery based war in the short term?

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With what tooling, and with what workforce?

schmellba99 said:

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MouthBQ98 said:

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We can jump up production quickly if we need to. We are still an immense industrial power and artillery ammunition isn't that sophisticated of a product.

What enemy are we likely to engage in an artillery based war in the short term?

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With what tooling, and with what workforce?

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It's just one of those statements you have to accept or you are a crazy conspiracy theorist who doesn't trust experts.

• We can replace all these munitions quickly that we have given Ukraine.
• This is just old stuff we didn't really need and wouldn't be helpful against anything with China
• Taiwan is crazy for being mad their artillery requests are delayed because we are shipping stuff to Ukraine.
• Relying on South Korea for 500,000 (borrowed) shells this year is fine. No Biggie.
• IRR authorization is no big deal, just 450 troops or so if needed. Not in any way indicative of an expanding war operational plan/concern.
• Biden was just wrong when he said he was shipping cluster munitions because our stockpile is running on empty.
• Studies saying it will take years to replace these munitions are just wrong/propaganda.
• Having a commander who was paid 7+ figures by our enemies for over 20+ years in the conflict, and can't even read an note card on TV, including Ukraine, Russia, and China, is no big deal.
• This war is about freedom for Ukraine, not their lack of freedom of movement for citizens, press, religion, books, or anything else.
• Putin attacked Ukraine because he is an evil maniacal man, not at all due to provocation by Biden, or actions of Biden-Obama, or anything else like the actions of Kiev against Russian minorities. If not stopped in Ukraine his incompetent, spent army will conquer Europe.
• Crushing Putin in Ukraine poses no risk to the rest of the world of nuclear conflagration. Biden's got this.
• China plays no role in this conflict, and is not benefitting.
• Blackrock is not a significant factor driving corrupt influence in decisions related to Ukraine.
• Ukrainian nazi's are good ones, if they exist, but probably they don't.
• Politico-NYT-CNN-ISW are the only real acceptable sources of analyses of the war, and even then only when they report good blue and yellow stories.
• The borders of Ukraine were established for all time in 1991.
• Ukraine ended corruption in the Maidan Revolution.

I'm probably forgetting some, but that covers most of the tenets of the Ukrainian Statment of Faith.

The stuff that's relevant for Ukraine is not the stuff that's relevant for China.

ABATTBQ11 said:

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MouthBQ98 said:

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We can jump up production quickly if we need to. We are still an immense industrial power and artillery ammunition isn't that sophisticated of a product.

What enemy are we likely to engage in an artillery based war in the short term?

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I don't think that's really the case. We are trying to ramp up production, and it is currently forecasted to take years to get to where we want to be because of labor shortages and backlogs for equipment to make more.

That said, we are where we are because we have not fought or even thought of fighting a near peer in decades. We've let these things slip. Now that we are supplying someone fighting a near peer, it is painfully obvious that we are lacking. Better to figure it out now than in a direct conflict when it's is burning through stockpiles at even higher rates.

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I agree with this post. The problem is they should have figured this out known this a long time ago when Putin started getting weird.

K2-HMFIC said:

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The stuff that's relevant for Ukraine is not the stuff that's relevant for China.

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True, The Russians love them some land war. Well, use to. Naval war will be a new thing for the Chinese and old hat for the US. But we do have a moron as our CIC. War has its equalizers.

K2-HMFIC said:

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The stuff that's relevant for Ukraine is not the stuff that's relevant for China.

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Just curious, how do you decouple the destabilization of Europe and rampant inflation/shift toward BRICS power etc. as not relevant to China?

nortex97 said:

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K2-HMFIC said:

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The stuff that's relevant for Ukraine is not the stuff that's relevant for China.

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Just curious, how do you decouple the destabilization of Europe and rampant inflation/shift toward BRICS power etc. as not relevant to China?

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Since we're talking about military equipment utilization for Ukraine vs China.

Ukraine is seeing a lot of artillery, tanks, some short range drones.

China: long range missiles (like greater than 500 miles), submarines, bombers, high end stealth fighters.

It's like comparing a flea market to Tiffany's.

K2-HMFIC said:

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nortex97 said:

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K2-HMFIC said:

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The stuff that's relevant for Ukraine is not the stuff that's relevant for China.

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Just curious, how do you decouple the destabilization of Europe and rampant inflation/shift toward BRICS power etc. as not relevant to China?

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Since we're talking about military equipment utilization for Ukraine vs China.

Ukraine is seeing a lot of artillery, tanks, some short range drones.

China: long range missiles (like greater than 500 miles), submarines, bombers, high end stealth fighters.

It's like comparing a flea market to Tiffany's.

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thank you for the response. So you don't think artillery/armor matter in Taiwan. I think that is pretty ignorant based on what Taiwanese officials have said, but agree to disagree.

We're not Taiwan.

And Taiwan can't invest in the right **** to save their lives.

And no…they are wrong. MBTs and artillery aren't going to help them.

It's pissing in the wind.

That real can't do American attitude for finding solutions to problems….

K2-HMFIC said:

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We're not Taiwan.

And Taiwan can't invest in the right **** to save their lives.

And no…they are wrong. MBTs and artillery aren't going to help them.

It's pissing in the wind.

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Yep. They need anti-ship and anti-air out the ying yang. If the Chinese land in force its over.

We can't get them to buy truck mounted harpoons. Instead they want more F-16s and ships which won't be relevant on day 2.

K2-HMFIC said:

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We can't get them to buy truck mounted harpoons. Instead they want more F-16s and ships which won't be relevant on day 2.

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They clearly should listen to Milley et al. About what they need to defend themselves from their larger neighbor after we provoke a war they can't win, as to how to make it at least a longer war.

I did have an opportunity to wave at the Ukes training on the UKs Challenger II tanks yesterday.

They gent who pointed it out was fairly pessimistic they would make a difference. With the Russians well dug in, its going to be difficult to make progress without a total assault on the fortified positions and the Ukes are simply not capable of that at this point, without further contribution of European and US assets.

This conflict is headed to either a very bad outcome for Ukraine, or a very bad outcome for Russia, Ukraine, and the rest of the world. It's time this be brokered to an end.

fka ftc said:

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I did have an opportunity to wave at the Ukes training on the UKs Challenger II tanks yesterday.

They gent who pointed it out was fairly pessimistic they would make a difference. With the Russians well dug in, its going to be difficult to make progress without a total assault on the fortified positions and the Ukes are simply not capable of that at this point, without further contribution of European and US assets.

This conflict is headed to either a very bad outcome for Ukraine, or a very bad outcome for Russia, Ukraine, and the rest of the world. It's time this be brokered to an end.

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The longer the conflict goes will be good for Ukraine until their efforts fall out of line with NATO. It's the EU who is having the biggest impact. Biden admin is supporting but they are not leading. In the long run it will be better for Ukraine.

I am kinda surprised the argument against have morphed into conventional weapons.

The strategy the US in employing is a good one ……at least for the democrats. The US economy needs all of the help it can get since they are wrecking the oil and gas industry. The US has shipped all of the stick piles ATM's and SLM's they had in inventory. Old, old stuff. Now someone in the Defense Industry is going to get a big fat contract to replenish with state of the art technology.

There are 100's of items being sent to UKRAINE that will justify printing more money and laundering through the defense industry. The immediate effect is the anti war party (sarcasm) now gets to heavily benefit by heavy spending building up the war machine. This gives them some cover to add some nuts to the economy. It is just too easy to see.

Unfortunately that is the motivation I see driving most of the US policy of emptying the old stock piles of everything, don't fall behind or get to far ahead of EU/NATO in driving policy involving support for Ukraine and print as much money to buy new stuff and be the recipient of allied nations who also have donated old stuff and are looking to buy new stuff.

If DJT was implementing the same policy he would have have anti war activist, anti war industry protesting everyday. But only crickets…..Hollywood could do a movie about an administration who gives away (Afghanistan and Ukraine) military assets of old/new who then starts shoveling money to the Defense Industries…….but they won't.