I can think of several million Jews in 1945 that thought war was pretty good for them.

nortex97 said:

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So, you agree the Russians should leave the country they invaded and go home so we can have at least a bad peace?

Ag with kids said:

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nortex97 said:

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So, you agree the Russians should leave the country they invaded and go home so we can have at least a bad peace?

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That would not break my heart at all, even though it is as likely as the sun rising in the west tomorrow morning. I've repeated so many times that there are no good sides in this conflict, it seems some just refuse to accept it, which is fine.

This isn't Kermit Gosnell vs. a baby.

Quote:

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there are no good sides in this conflict

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There it is...

Teslag said:

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Quote:

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there are no good sides in this conflict

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There it is...

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Some people did something...

The fanbois and corrupt politicians have drawn the line i. The sand. Of course that line has nothing to with any real sacrifice.

It's not ignorance, it's out and out lying.

Manhattan said:

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Wtf are we spending $800billion a year on if we don't have enough weapons to fight a war we aren't actively involved in for just over a year?

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61% of the military budget cannot be accounted for.

China has been able to corner 80% of the market in a vital component for rocket fuel.

Ag with kids said:

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nortex97 said:

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Yes, it's a desperate mess, as Biden indicated we are providing the cluster munitions precisely because our other stuff is so low. "Perilously low, may take decades" to recover, which is why we are doing things like going to the South Koreans to 'borrow' 500,000+ shells.

Oh, and the great Ukrainians are killing kids.

The far more militarily-significant rail bridge was not damaged and traffic on it has already resumed.

This was likely an attempt by the Ukrainians to grab headlines and distract from ongoing difficulties at the front.

See: https://t.co/sqDzX2uI7w

— Armchair Warlord (@ArmchairW) July 17, 2023

The Russians have now terminated the grain deal. More hunger on the way.

Yay, forever war!

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Well, the Russians could leave Ukraine and end this forever war today.

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The US could have left Iraq and Afghanistan and ended our invasion of the Middle East in a day.

In fact Biden did precisely that.

Teslag said:

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I can think of several million Jews in 1945 that thought war was pretty good for them.

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There it is...

Manhattan said:

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Teslag said:

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Manhattan said:

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DrEvazanPhD said:

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Manhattan said:

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Wtf are we spending $800billion a year on if we don't have enough weapons to fight a war we aren't actively involved in for just over a year?

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Good question. Why don't you ask the guy you voted for with best economy ever?

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He inherited a weakened economy and military.

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How was the military weakened from January 2017 to January 2021? Be specfic.

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Let's start with Milley.

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Why didn't Biden fire him?

And his replacement could be confirmed easily if the Dems in the Senate wanted to do so.

agdoc2001 said:

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Teslag said:

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I can think of several million Jews in 1945 that thought war was pretty good for them.

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There it is...

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Yep, there it is. War is sometimes necessary for peace and liberty. And that will remain true for as long as man exists on this earth.

It's a grift. Been going on since Regan.

1. Start a war / engage in a war
2. Blow up stuff
3. Military complex makes billions
4. Pentagon gets plush "consulting" gigs.

You and I pay for it. Trump was the first in decades to point this out and put it to an end. See the narrative "it was old anyway". Their need to continue to make weapons hasn't changed.

Is that why Trump started arming Ukraine?

Teslag said:

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Is that why Trump started arming Ukraine?

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How much did Trump give Ukraine? I know he approved the sale of some defensive weapons to them ($40mm dollars) but have not seen where he gave them anything.

And $40mm isn't much.

And why would Trump arm Ukraine since all the TDS reeeed that Trump was a Putin puppet? Remember that??

"all of it"

Trump, in Florence, South Carolina, takes credit for sending military aid to Ukraine -- ignoring that, you know, he was impeached after he got caught trying to withhold it pic.twitter.com/OevrrJP5WI

— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) March 13, 2022

Teslag said:

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agdoc2001 said:

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Teslag said:

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I can think of several million Jews in 1945 that thought war was pretty good for them.

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There it is...

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Yep, there it is. War is sometimes necessary for peace and liberty. And that will remain true for as long as man exists on this earth.

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I think a lot of people, and honestly, maybe it's just me, are wondering - why was Ukraine, a non-NATO country, chosen to uphold peace and liberty?

If it was China invading Thailand instead of Russian invading Ukraine, and the invasion didn't start off as planned for China, is the US and Europe providing munitions and support to Thailand in the name of peace and liberty? What if it's a dictator in Africa invading a democracy in Africa?

What I think happened is this: the US and Europe saw Ukraine slowed Russia down, and the US and Europe thought, "Hey, Russia might not be a strong as we've been led to believe. We have an opportunity to weaken them and not have to use our people do it."

As a matter of fact, you've heard the United States' own leaders say it's the best money America is spending. Then they quickly tacked on the talking point that if Ukraine is taken, all of democracy is hanging in the balance, it's the tipping point.

You keep making fun of the saying "there are no good sides in this war." I actually think you're correct in your statement, but it's pretty much only the Ukrainians fighting for their freedom.

It's pretty damn diabolical to say, "I'm going to weaken my enemy while another country's people die for my gain." I've brought that point up multiple times and no one wants to actually address it. You know why? Because it makes the US one of the bad guys.

Ukraine's freedom is a byproduct of America and Europe's actual goal in this war, which is to weaken Russia. I guarantee you that if Ukraine loses in another year, but it sets Russia back 50-70 years it will be spun as win for America and NATO.

All that being said, freedom is worth fighting for, and I personally am glad stuff is being provided to the Ukrainians to fight for their freedom. I think it should be acknowledged that's not actually NATO's #1 goal in this conflict.

Also, for America, I just don't want it to get to the point where America crosses some line, because it's going to be easy to do if we're willing to see this thing through to the end like Biden pretty much said. We went from cluster bombs are illegal to sending them to Ukraine.

I don't actually disagree with a lot of what you say. In fact I'd say I agree with just about all of it. My biggest issue is with those that feel in order to disagree with our support they must then prop up Russia, echo their propaganda, or make ridiculous claims that Ukraine is just as bad.

One can easily believe we shouldn't help Ukraine while also realizing that Russia is 100% at fault and is a ****hole garbage country led by a piece of **** dictator.

Teslag said:

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agdoc2001 said:

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Teslag said:

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I can think of several million Jews in 1945 that thought war was pretty good for them.

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There it is...

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Yep, there it is. War is sometimes necessary for peace and liberty. And that will remain true for as long as man exists on this earth.

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The complete lack of coherence necessary to compare this proxy war to WWII is astounding. I thought this might be the one topic on the board where no one would have the gall to make a Hitler or Holocaust comparison, but I stand corrected.

Ags4DaWin said:

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Ag with kids said:

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nortex97 said:

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Yes, it's a desperate mess, as Biden indicated we are providing the cluster munitions precisely because our other stuff is so low. "Perilously low, may take decades" to recover, which is why we are doing things like going to the South Koreans to 'borrow' 500,000+ shells.

Oh, and the great Ukrainians are killing kids.

The far more militarily-significant rail bridge was not damaged and traffic on it has already resumed.

This was likely an attempt by the Ukrainians to grab headlines and distract from ongoing difficulties at the front.

See: https://t.co/sqDzX2uI7w

— Armchair Warlord (@ArmchairW) July 17, 2023

The Russians have now terminated the grain deal. More hunger on the way.

Yay, forever war!

---

Well, the Russians could leave Ukraine and end this forever war today.

---

The US could have left Iraq and Afghanistan and ended our invasion of the Middle East in a day.

In fact Biden did precisely that.

---

Like the ski resort filled with girls looking for husbands and husbands looking for girls, the two situations are not as symmetric as they may first appear...

nortex97 said:

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Ag with kids said:

---

nortex97 said:

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So, you agree the Russians should leave the country they invaded and go home so we can have at least a bad peace?

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That would not break my heart at all, even though it is as likely as the sun rising in the west tomorrow morning. I've repeated so many times that there are no good sides in this conflict, it seems some just refuse to accept it, which is fine.

This isn't Kermit Gosnell vs. a baby.

---

Instead of "not breaking your heart," this seems like something someone who is apparently so concerned with the loss of life in Ukraine would celebrate, no?

We've given off enough "old" and new stuff that we won't be replenished to defend ourselves against an actual threat at our doorstep. Seems very Bidenesque

TAMUallen said:

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We've given off enough "old" and new stuff that we won't be replenished to defend ourselves against an actual threat at our doorstep. Seems very Bidenesque

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What country is capable of bringing a threat to our doorstep?

J. Walter Weatherman said:

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nortex97 said:

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Ag with kids said:

---

nortex97 said:

---

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So, you agree the Russians should leave the country they invaded and go home so we can have at least a bad peace?

---

That would not break my heart at all, even though it is as likely as the sun rising in the west tomorrow morning. I've repeated so many times that there are no good sides in this conflict, it seems some just refuse to accept it, which is fine.

This isn't Kermit Gosnell vs. a baby.

---

Instead of "not breaking your heart," this seems like something someone who is apparently so concerned with the loss of life in Ukraine would celebrate, no?

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Sure, and the crowd goes wild when a vapid beauty queen delivers a monologue about how she values 'peace on earth' as her biggest priority.

You'll pardon me for not bowing down before your moral high ground as you celebrate grinding a people, including forced conscripts, to death in a proxy war for nothing in a disingenuous cry about 'freedom' as run by a totalitarian cabal of vile criminals and traitors.

Since we are emptying warehouses and dumping old us military equipment like Bradley's and dragons in Ukraine don't forget to load up the c130,s and bomber planes with covid ventilators. Just go up to 30k feet and then let them fly out the back while traveling over enemy lines. Not a military piece of equipment or explosive so technically we are not bombing since it is just a ventilator.

No rules broken and we get rid of more crap.

nortex97 said:

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J. Walter Weatherman said:

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nortex97 said:

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Ag with kids said:

---

nortex97 said:

---

---

So, you agree the Russians should leave the country they invaded and go home so we can have at least a bad peace?

---

That would not break my heart at all, even though it is as likely as the sun rising in the west tomorrow morning. I've repeated so many times that there are no good sides in this conflict, it seems some just refuse to accept it, which is fine.

This isn't Kermit Gosnell vs. a baby.

---

Instead of "not breaking your heart," this seems like something someone who is apparently so concerned with the loss of life in Ukraine would celebrate, no?

---

Sure, and the crowd goes wild when a vapid beauty queen delivers a monologue about how she values 'peace on earth' as her biggest priority.

You'll pardon me for not bowing down before your moral high ground as you celebrate grinding a people, including forced conscripts, to death in a proxy war for nothing in a disingenuous cry about 'freedom' as run by a totalitarian cabal of vile criminals and traitors.

---

Link to me celebrating the war? I would definitely celebrate if Putin decided to end it and go home, but weirdly enough I guess that's only one of us.

J. Walter Weatherman said:

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nortex97 said:

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J. Walter Weatherman said:

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nortex97 said:

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Ag with kids said:

---

nortex97 said:

---

---

So, you agree the Russians should leave the country they invaded and go home so we can have at least a bad peace?

---

That would not break my heart at all, even though it is as likely as the sun rising in the west tomorrow morning. I've repeated so many times that there are no good sides in this conflict, it seems some just refuse to accept it, which is fine.

This isn't Kermit Gosnell vs. a baby.

---

Instead of "not breaking your heart," this seems like something someone who is apparently so concerned with the loss of life in Ukraine would celebrate, no?

---

Sure, and the crowd goes wild when a vapid beauty queen delivers a monologue about how she values 'peace on earth' as her biggest priority.

You'll pardon me for not bowing down before your moral high ground as you celebrate grinding a people, including forced conscripts, to death in a proxy war for nothing in a disingenuous cry about 'freedom' as run by a totalitarian cabal of vile criminals and traitors.

---

Link to me celebrating the war? I would definitely celebrate if Putin decided to end it and go home, but weirdly enough I guess that's only one of us.

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Just in case people are still confused about what a strawman argument is. Poster makes comment about killing of conscripted Russian soldiers and supporting corrupt regimes in Ukraine, responding poster comments indicating poster would not welcome an end of war.

The pro-Ukes are nauseating with their continued straw man's taking anything remotely critical of Ukraine or anything remotely positive (or just appearing positive) for Russia as indication the poster is some sort of KGB operative, pro Russian / Soviet, pro Putin, democracy hating, propaganda eating idiot.

That is what gets old and it should stop. There is a Go Ukes thread if they need a safe place to play in.

MouthBQ98 said:

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I agree, we have not properly prepared for the volume modern warfare might demand, but we are a very resourceful nation with a lot of capacity and capability and if we had to produce a lot of ammunition in the short term, we absolutely could make it happen.

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Maybe.

Dude, the last thing I want to do is cross swords with you. I have read your posts for two decades, you're clearly one of the smartest and most rational people that post here.

Anecdotal. My wife drinks Power Aid Zero in either orange or grape. Ever since Covid hit we can still not consistently get Power Aid Zero in orange or grape. Three years later. I know it sounds dumb but I am very much less than confident in our supply chain, whether sports drinks or munitions.

Compound that with the morons currently running the country. Not good.

Ag with kids said:

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Ags4DaWin said:

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Ag with kids said:

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nortex97 said:

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Yes, it's a desperate mess, as Biden indicated we are providing the cluster munitions precisely because our other stuff is so low. "Perilously low, may take decades" to recover, which is why we are doing things like going to the South Koreans to 'borrow' 500,000+ shells.

Oh, and the great Ukrainians are killing kids.

The far more militarily-significant rail bridge was not damaged and traffic on it has already resumed.

This was likely an attempt by the Ukrainians to grab headlines and distract from ongoing difficulties at the front.

See: https://t.co/sqDzX2uI7w

— Armchair Warlord (@ArmchairW) July 17, 2023

The Russians have now terminated the grain deal. More hunger on the way.

Yay, forever war!

---

Well, the Russians could leave Ukraine and end this forever war today.

---

The US could have left Iraq and Afghanistan and ended our invasion of the Middle East in a day.

In fact Biden did precisely that.

---

Like the ski resort filled with girls looking for husbands and husbands looking for girls, the two situations are not as symmetric as they may first appear...

---

Hmmmm explain this to me then....

We invaded Iraq for what exactly?
We invaded Afghanistan for what exactly?

Iraq- our claim was that we invaded for national security reasons. After all Iraq had WMD's! Oh wait. They didn't. And Bush 2 KNEW they didn't. The intel used to justify the invasion was totally fabricated at Bush 2's request. BUUUUT They had oil.

^^we said we were invading another country that never attacked us because of national security reasons. Gaining access to resources was the real reason we formed a coalition and invaded Iraq. BOTH of these are reasons Russia is invading Ukraine.^^

Afghanistan- we made the excuse that we needed to invade for national security reasons. Because Bin Laden! Only Bin Laden was in Pakistan when we got around to invading and we knew it.

^^we invaded another country that never attacked us because of national secuirty reasons^^

350k Afghani and Iraqi civilians were killed in our invasions of these countries.

Remind me again why Russia invading Ukraine?

And remind me again why our invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan were more moral than Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

I am not defending Russia's invasion. But if you are going to spout the line Russia could end all this tomorrow by leaving so its 100% their fault. and there should be no negotiation until the invading country is repelled!

Then to be logically and morally consistent you should have said the same about the invasions the US led. Because the reasons for all 3 were the same. And yet very few people on this board ever said that once about our invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq.

The Russian invasion is different because Russia is EVIL. And we should send more weapons because more weapons means more dead Russkies. This is word for word what some posters have said.

Russia's REASONS for invading Ukraine are in fact very similar to the US REASONS for invading Iraq and Afghanistan.

Therefore it is my position that
1) Russia's invasion is just as wrong as the US led invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan because the reasons are the same.
2) Russia has valid national security concerns that the US totally ignored and stomped all over as we courted Ukraine.
3) Also the US reneged on treaties signed and agreements made to Russia to guarantee its national security concerns. This was wrong and provoked Russia.
4) That in large part contributed to Russia doing Russian things and invading Ukraine. This is wrong and bad. The sooner it stops the better.
5) Additionally Ukraine is a corrupt ****hole country that was doing ****ty things in eastern Ukraine because the proeuropean Ukrainians finally had gained control of the government with an American and George Soros led Coup. Yes...THAT George soros. Odd isn't it?
6) Ukraine is corrupt and we know aid being sent is being skimmed to enrich Ukrainian politicians, US politicians, etc. This is wrong. AND a motivation for the politicians to continue to needlessly drag on the conflict.
7) Ukrainian civilians are being killed.
8) Russia will not stop unless concessions are made that address its national security concerns and allow it to claim a victory of some sort.

Therefore The quickest and most fair way to ensure the war, destruction, loss of civlian life stopped would be to

1) correct our past actions by guaranteeing Russia's national security interests and stop threatening to bring NATO to their doorstep.

2) prevent western Ukraine from continuing to **** on eastern Ukraine by creating a semi autonomous eastern state.

3) Make it clear that future incursions into Ukraine will lead to a more robust response which will include giving offensive weaponry to the Ukrainians that could be used to attack Russia directly. Thus far we have not given them such weaponry.

How are the above objectionable?

And why is continued war and loss of life and destruction of a country preferable to the above?

The only reason I have heard on this board is Russians deserve to die because they are invading another country and killing civilians!

And yet none of the posters saying that about Russians said that about US soldiers or Americans as WE invaded foreign countries and killed civilians in greater numbers than the Russians have thus far killed. And with no more moral justification or reasons for invading than the Russians have in this case.

Odd.

🚨“(The Russians are using) 60,000 (shells) a day. The world production in the west can accommodate about 5,000 (shells) a day. I guess the Russians have been building artillery for about 50 years and they have an infinite supply

I was shocked at how good the Russians were at… pic.twitter.com/rmA48YSu6a

— Lord Bebo (@MyLordBebo) July 17, 2023

"We're not running out of anything, just getting rid of old stuff."

Lol the Russians have an infinite supply. K

BudFox7 said:

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Lol the Russians have an infinite supply. K

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Soon, they're going to be building so many T-90s a month they're going to be able to start yeeting those at the Ukrainians with their artillery...

I think they are up to 1,500 T-90's per month.

fka ftc said:

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J. Walter Weatherman said:

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nortex97 said:

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J. Walter Weatherman said:

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nortex97 said:

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Ag with kids said:

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nortex97 said:

---

---

So, you agree the Russians should leave the country they invaded and go home so we can have at least a bad peace?

---

That would not break my heart at all, even though it is as likely as the sun rising in the west tomorrow morning. I've repeated so many times that there are no good sides in this conflict, it seems some just refuse to accept it, which is fine.

This isn't Kermit Gosnell vs. a baby.

---

Instead of "not breaking your heart," this seems like something someone who is apparently so concerned with the loss of life in Ukraine would celebrate, no?

---

Sure, and the crowd goes wild when a vapid beauty queen delivers a monologue about how she values 'peace on earth' as her biggest priority.

You'll pardon me for not bowing down before your moral high ground as you celebrate grinding a people, including forced conscripts, to death in a proxy war for nothing in a disingenuous cry about 'freedom' as run by a totalitarian cabal of vile criminals and traitors.

---

Link to me celebrating the war? I would definitely celebrate if Putin decided to end it and go home, but weirdly enough I guess that's only one of us.

---

Just in case people are still confused about what a strawman argument is. Poster makes comment about killing of conscripted Russian soldiers and supporting corrupt regimes in Ukraine, responding poster comments indicating poster would not welcome an end of war.

The pro-Ukes are nauseating with their continued straw man's taking anything remotely critical of Ukraine or anything remotely positive (or just appearing positive) for Russia as indication the poster is some sort of KGB operative, pro Russian / Soviet, pro Putin, democracy hating, propaganda eating idiot.

That is what gets old and it should stop. There is a Go Ukes thread if they need a safe place to play in.

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Lol - let me help you out with a summary here since it seems reading may be difficult.

Poster 1. "So you agree the Russians should end the war and leave?"

Poster 2. "That would not break my heart."

Poster 3. Confused, as it seems like 'not breaking your heart' is a bit of a muted reaction for someone who claims to be so pro-peace.

Poster 2. Actual strawman about poster 3 celebrating the war, with zero evidence of that viewpoint.

Poster 3. Still confused, asks again why Putin ending the war and going home wouldn't be a cause for celebration. Uses Poster 2's previous comments to guess that he wouldn't be celebrating the end of the war if Putin gave up.

Poster 4 (you) - nonsensical rant with multiple of the usual "forever war/zelenskyy fanboy, etc" strawmen that the anti-Ukraine posters always resort to.

Hope that helps! Would also be curious if you would celebrate Putin giving up and going home, but I won't assign an answer to you, as that would be another actual strawman