Adventure to the Titanic goes terribly wrong [Staff Warning in OP]
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Last: 4 mo ago by Stat Monitor Repairman
I'm good.Rapier108 said:
That said, I would love to see the Titanic with my own eyes if I could afford to do it.
Paper. An insane deer. Taco meat.
FTAG 2000 said:
Pretty damning article.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12215003/OceanGate-REFUSED-independent-inspection-missing-sub-fired-worker-raised-safety-concerns.html
Wow. Just wow.
"Given the prevalent flaws in the previously tested 1/3 scale model, and the visible flaws in the carbon end samples for the Titan, Lochridge again stressed the potential danger to passengers of the Titan as the submersible reached extreme depths. The constant pressure cycling weakens existing flaws resulting in large tears of the carbon. Non-destructive testing was critical to detect such potentially existing flaws in order to ensure a solid and safe product for the safety of the passengers and crew."
I don't think it works that way. It's like hurricanes, even after the government tells you to evacuate and you don't, they will still send rescue assets when they are able to save you.
Just me spitballing but after a few days of searching they will give up. If they find any wreckage they won't waste the dollars recovering it, since it is a one of a kind and unclassed vessel. If it was a classed they would spend some money trying to recover it, to find out what went wrong so it doesn't happen to other vessels in the class.
Just me spitballing but after a few days of searching they will give up. If they find any wreckage they won't waste the dollars recovering it, since it is a one of a kind and unclassed vessel. If it was a classed they would spend some money trying to recover it, to find out what went wrong so it doesn't happen to other vessels in the class.
Pumpkinhead said:The CEO and founder of the company is going to be dead. Sounded like the company wasn't even to a profitable stage; the founder was bankrolling a bunch of it.jrrhouston98 said:
Question for anyone who may know. Considering the size of this recovery/rescue mission now, what is the possibility that anyone would be held responsible for and be fined for the cost of the recovery? This is a significant expense for military assets for the US and Canada. Just curious since I don't believe they'll ever find any trace of this thing.
All the passengers had to sign a multi-page waiver form indicating that they understood all the possible ways that they could die...which were apparently listed out in explicit detail paragraph by paragraph.
If you can prove negligence those waivers don't really mean anything.
Woah, yes that is damning. The "it will take too long to class it" excuse is very weak, yes it takes a few more weeks but not years. Of course if they were making a bunch of ECPs that would make the classing more of a pain.
Just the fact the viewing port manufacturer wouldn't certify beyond 1300m for a dive, but they insisted on the 4000m thing would be enough to void those liability waivers (unless they put that in the waiver, and then what idiot would sign it?)
This just sounds worse and worse the longer it goes on. Questionable constriction to whatever degree, refusing an independent inspection and who knows what else.
This would be a terrifying movie
This would be a terrifying movie
one MEEN Ag said:
I mean, we're focusing on the carbon fiber, but there are way more interactions at play and it only takes one failure path. This looks to be a fiber hull epoxied to an aluminum base that is exposed on the viewport. I think its aluminum based upon the welds and material color. and then a metal ring around the glass viewport with a bolt pattern of what looks like maybe 3/16" diameter bolts. I assume its covering an elastomer or thin metal seal underneath. Bolts you can overtorque with a wrench. You just overtorque this bolt pattern down wrong, think your too smart and don't use a star method when tightening them, and all of a sudden you've got 6000 psi fighting its way in. Again, look at the ALVIN, it doesn't look like this for a reason.
3/16" ?!
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Only 750,000 2 of the 5 are actual employees
i thought only one was an actual employee (CEO Rush). The other four were the father/son, the british billionaire and the french explorer.Keeper of The Spirits said:
Only 750,000 2 of the 5 are actual employees
So rescue and assistance teams need to be outfitted with a long 1/2" breaker bar, 13/16, 20, 22 and 24mm sockets +1 extra of each in case one goes in the drink (which it will) and maybe a MAP gas torch.TexasRebel said:3/16" ?!one MEEN Ag said:
I mean, we're focusing on the carbon fiber, but there are way more interactions at play and it only takes one failure path. This looks to be a fiber hull epoxied to an aluminum base that is exposed on the viewport. I think its aluminum based upon the welds and material color. and then a metal ring around the glass viewport with a bolt pattern of what looks like maybe 3/16" diameter bolts. I assume its covering an elastomer or thin metal seal underneath. Bolts you can overtorque with a wrench. You just overtorque this bolt pattern down wrong, think your too smart and don't use a star method when tightening them, and all of a sudden you've got 6000 psi fighting its way in. Again, look at the ALVIN, it doesn't look like this for a reason.
All that and they'll be as prepared as they can get to get those folks out of there if they find 'em.
And I hope they used antiseize on them threads.
I thought previous generations of these deep submersibles had tethers. That may limit maneuverability, but it makes it kind of hard to lose.
13km of cable is not trivial in volume or mass.
Don't know if anyone here watches/listens to MrBallen on YouTube but boy I'm getting hit with claustrophobia reading about that sub and being under water…..
That dude has a lot of stories involving water and small spaces that are tough to get through at times….
That dude has a lot of stories involving water and small spaces that are tough to get through at times….
3/16" diameter bolts are pretty smallStat Monitor Repairman said:So rescue and assistance teams need to be outfitted with a long 1/2" breaker bar, 13/16, 20, 22 and 24mm sockets +1 extra of each in case one goes in the drink (which it will) and maybe a MAP gas torch.TexasRebel said:3/16" ?!one MEEN Ag said:
I mean, we're focusing on the carbon fiber, but there are way more interactions at play and it only takes one failure path. This looks to be a fiber hull epoxied to an aluminum base that is exposed on the viewport. I think its aluminum based upon the welds and material color. and then a metal ring around the glass viewport with a bolt pattern of what looks like maybe 3/16" diameter bolts. I assume its covering an elastomer or thin metal seal underneath. Bolts you can overtorque with a wrench. You just overtorque this bolt pattern down wrong, think your too smart and don't use a star method when tightening them, and all of a sudden you've got 6000 psi fighting its way in. Again, look at the ALVIN, it doesn't look like this for a reason.
All that and they'll be as prepared as they can get to get those folks out of there if they find 'em.
And I hope they used antiseize on them threads.
It's probably a low frequency sonar. Would be very low bandwidth, similar to the old morse code telegraph except it would use acoustics instead of an electrical signal. Would have an electronic transmitter and receiver on each end though.aggiehawg said:
Have a question about communications under water. If the surface ship has to text navigational instructions to the Titan to guide it down to the wreck, how does that texting work? I have read they were using Starlink?
1200kg if they made it out of kevlar.TexasRebel said:
13km of cable is not trivial in volume or mass.
I'll upgrade my guess to 3/8ths. That ring is what? probably 2.5-3.0" wide and 24" in diameter. Heads is probably .75-1.00. So probably hiding a 3/8ths, maybe even a 1/2" thread if they decided they really didn't need much of a cap head.TexasRebel said:
3/16" ?!
Still nothing that assuages a deep seated fear this was designed by unqualified people.
FTAG 2000 said:1200kg if they made it out of kevlar.TexasRebel said:
13km of cable is not trivial in volume or mass.
Talk to me in American please
Just curious where the 13km comes from? They're only 13,000' below surface.
And yes, while I agree that even 13,000' of cable is a lot, oilfield ROVs are deployed daily to depths of 9000'+. Those all go down in a cage suspended by a heavy cable, and then the sub is tethered to the cage via an umbilical supplying electric power for onboard operations. In my simple little brain, this is a helluva lot safer and a better set up than dropping in the drink with no way to navigate or communicate and only having a general idea of where to go since currents can carry you off course in your 2 hour descent.
And yes, while I agree that even 13,000' of cable is a lot, oilfield ROVs are deployed daily to depths of 9000'+. Those all go down in a cage suspended by a heavy cable, and then the sub is tethered to the cage via an umbilical supplying electric power for onboard operations. In my simple little brain, this is a helluva lot safer and a better set up than dropping in the drink with no way to navigate or communicate and only having a general idea of where to go since currents can carry you off course in your 2 hour descent.
one MEEN Ag said:I'll upgrade my guess to 3/8ths. That ring is what? probably 2.5-3.0" wide and 24" in diameter. Heads is probably .75-1.00. So probably hiding a 3/8ths, maybe even a 1/2" thread if they decided they really didn't need much of a cap head.TexasRebel said:
3/16" ?!
Still nothing that assuages a deep seated fear this was designed by unqualified people.
3/8" bolts have 9/16" heads.
On the off chance I become a billionaire in the next 30 yrs and decide I want to drop a cool quarter mil on a sightseeing trip where the main viewing hole doubles as a restroom, this whole ordeal has made me really think twice about getting into an experimental sub built by a CEO who couldn't fork over enough money to buy the enhanced PS5 controller....
Lesson learned on my part boys & girls.
Lesson learned on my part boys & girls.
Wait. I just watched a video of being inside the sub. I'm revising my guess again. 3/8ths max thread. That window isn't more than 14" in diameter. Plate steel 2" wide max. Final answer.TexasRebel said:one MEEN Ag said:I'll upgrade my guess to 3/8ths. That ring is what? probably 2.5-3.0" wide and 24" in diameter. Heads is probably .75-1.00. So probably hiding a 3/8ths, maybe even a 1/2" thread if they decided they really didn't need much of a cap head.TexasRebel said:
3/16" ?!
Still nothing that assuages a deep seated fear this was designed by unqualified people.
3/8" bolts have 9/16" heads.
Supposed to be titanium I think.one MEEN Ag said:
I mean, we're focusing on the carbon fiber, but there are way more interactions at play and it only takes one failure path. This looks to be a fiber hull epoxied to an aluminum base that is exposed on the viewport. I think it's aluminum based upon the welds and material color. and then a metal ring around the glass viewport with a bolt pattern of what looks like maybe 3/16" diameter bolts. I assume it's covering an elastomer or thin metal seal underneath. Bolts you can overtorque with a wrench. You just overtorque this bolt pattern down wrong, think you're too smart and don't use a star method when tightening them, and all of a sudden you've got 6000 psi fighting its way in. Again, look at the ALVIN, it doesn't look like this for a reason.
Trump will fix it.
2600 lbs, or 1.25 tons.Txhuntr said:FTAG 2000 said:1200kg if they made it out of kevlar.TexasRebel said:
13km of cable is not trivial in volume or mass.
Talk to me in American please
About half the weight of a Ford F-150 crew cab.
jrrhouston98 said:
Just curious where the 13km comes from? They're only 13,000' below surface.
And yes, while I agree that even 13,000' of cable is a lot, oilfield ROVs are deployed daily to depths of 9000'+. Those all go down in a cage suspended by a heavy cable, and then the sub is tethered to the cage via an umbilical supplying electric power for onboard operations. In my simple little brain, this is a helluva lot safer and a better set up than dropping in the drink with no way to navigate or communicate and only having a general idea of where to go since currents can carry you off course in your 2 hour descent.
Had my units wrong.
Still. To account for currents, drift, and maneuvering slack you're looking at nearly 4 miles of tether that has to lift both itself and a sub possibly full of seawater.
Y'all ever seen the Red Bull soap box derby cars? This floating Our Gang clubhouse doesn't look that well built.
I think its clear this thing is much less safer than an old fashion diving bell.
While the ordeal is tragic for those involved, they all knowingly accepted the extreme risk in order to peer out a small window in a crowded can with suspect design and spotty operation.
I still have trouble understanding why the seemed to have cheaped on the communication. VLF/ELF communications has been around since the 1960's if not earlier and one would think this was what was deployed for text based communication they were using. But my limited understanding is that it is supposed to be quite reliable.
If not mistaken, wasn't this communication relied on in either Red October or Crimson Tide movies?
While the ordeal is tragic for those involved, they all knowingly accepted the extreme risk in order to peer out a small window in a crowded can with suspect design and spotty operation.
I still have trouble understanding why the seemed to have cheaped on the communication. VLF/ELF communications has been around since the 1960's if not earlier and one would think this was what was deployed for text based communication they were using. But my limited understanding is that it is supposed to be quite reliable.
If not mistaken, wasn't this communication relied on in either Red October or Crimson Tide movies?
I thought they had to almost surface to use those?Quote:
If not mistaken, wasn't this communication relied on in either Red October or Crimson Tide movies?
This is going to be every lesson in engineering failures
Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering https://t.co/9bsIe5G7g5 by @benjedwards
— Ars Technica (@arstechnica) June 20, 2023
Yea, the whole point of VLF is to not have to surface but I think Tarantino wanted to include surfacing to build tension. VLF can penetrate some depth - though not what these guys were having to overcome.aggiehawg said:I thought they had to almost surface to use those?Quote:
If not mistaken, wasn't this communication relied on in either Red October or Crimson Tide movies?
Being a curious fellow, I looked a bit more at this. Maybe someone has actual knowledge of these systems, but Wikipedia provides a concept of "Underwater Modems and a system called JANUS. Looks like ti fits the bill of what they would use in this situation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communication_with_submarines
Quote:
Underwater modems
In April 2017, NATO's Centre for Maritime Research and Experimentation announced[12] the approval of JANUS, a standardized protocol to transmit digital information underwater using acoustic sound (as modems with acoustic couplers did in order to make use of analog telephone lines).[13] Documented in STANAG 4748, it uses 900 Hz to 60 kHz frequencies at distances of up to 28 kilometres (17 mi).[14][15] It is available for use with military and civilian, NATO and non-NATO devices; it was named after the Roman god of gateways, openings, etc.
A lot of sailors and engineers are at the bottom of the sea because their equipment was not specifically designed to withstand the perils of the sea.
Over the past 2000 years humans have made great strides in this field of marine systems engineering most notably on the backs of the Royal Navy and US Navy.
Doing anything on or near to the sea is a lot harder than it looks. So these folks are relearning lessons already learned in the past.
Over the past 2000 years humans have made great strides in this field of marine systems engineering most notably on the backs of the Royal Navy and US Navy.
Doing anything on or near to the sea is a lot harder than it looks. So these folks are relearning lessons already learned in the past.
McInnis 03 said:
This is going to be every lesson in engineering failuresSubmarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering https://t.co/9bsIe5G7g5 by @benjedwards
— Ars Technica (@arstechnica) June 20, 2023
Why? We have attack subs that use Xbox controllers for the optics on the mast. All it is is an input controller. There's no functional difference between this and a joystick.
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