dead said:

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Their name doesn't count?

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No, because you are conflating what kind of economy they have with what their political structure is.

Hitler's government ran a command economy. As do the Norks. They are both socialist.

AgBQ-00 said:

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You are under the delusion that the people actually own anything in a socialist state. The fact is that the STATE owns everything and commands the entirety of economy and the populace for the goals of the state.
The utopian fairytale of the "workers owned paradise" is nothing more than that, a fairytale. It always boils down to the use of extreme authoritarian thuggery and mass murders due to the very nature of socialism. You cannot have people refusing to go along with the State mandated equity and proving the folly of the system.

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Maybe I should have used the term 'party'. The problem is that many people see the left and think 'socialism' and then try to equate it with how the Nazi's ruled. Its not only not the same, the Nazi's would have destroyed the left. You think they'd put up with transgendered and LGBTQ folks? People are taking pieces of what they think socialism is and think "well the Nazi's had the term 'socialist' in their party title".

This trope has also been helpful to spin the Nazi's, which some have pejoratively and wrongly referred to some conservatives and put it back on the left. The left wants the government to control everything. Yes, the Nazi's, and more specifically Hitler, controlled everything, but that is where the similarities ended. In fact the Nazi's were far more close to the right in their traditionalist values. They were just super extreme in most areas. They were super nationalistic with a focus on militarism.

For our leftists in the crowd that are trying to gaslight....

there might have been 20,000 people at the "NAZI" rally in NYC, but there were 132,000,000 Americans in 1940. Let's say that all 48 states (at that time) had 20,000 "nazis", just to be generous. That means there were approx. 960,000 Nazi's in the US. Or 0.73% of the population were NAZIs. of course I am being VERY GENEROUS. HAHAHAHAHAHA.

But again to be fair, THERE WAS an American Nazi Party founded in 1959 - Changed names in 1967 and disbanded completely in 1983. And it had a WHOPPING 500 individuals.

so yes... lefties want to shout MUAAAHHHH Nazi's but that is just laziness, lies, gaslighting, or all of the above.

Hitler and Nazi thinkers went to great lengths in differentiating socialism from Marxism while gleefully claiming adherence to socialism. In fact it was a common point that the term 'socialism' was stolen and misused by marxists.

I've always thought of the difference as two different and competing forms of socialism.

Further that American conservative thinking is different from both: an emphasis on the individual instead of a collective.

AgBQ-00 said:

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The Commie-Nazi fight was a progressive sectarian fight. They had the same authoritarian bent and the same belief in total govt control of the economy, one based off of class warfare jealousy and dehumanization, the other based off of race warfare and dehumanization.

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And now we have American Democrats who have adopted and embody both of these beliefs simultaneously.

Socialism ends with authoritarian rule, that's why some people equate it to Nazism.

Matt Hooper said:

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I simply disagree.

I think you are trying too hard to dance around the socialistic/fascistic nature of the Nazi's. Purity of implementation of any economic structure does not exist. It's not definitive in itself - but the Socialists in the party name is no small thing, and I think you dismiss it to readily. I would agree that fascist is better descriptor - but the differences are not of great magnitude. These are but differing traits of leftist authoritarians.

Note - Capitalism does not exist in pure form. Yet capitalism is what one would ascribe to our economic underpinnings.

To the OP original post - Naziism, Fascism are not products of the right (US right terminology). They are products of authoritarian leftists, always and everywhere - however you wish to identify the ….ism.

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The Nazi's were nationalistic to the extreme, held very traditional values of the family and would have executed LGBTQ or transgendered people. You cannot brush the left in the U.S. with this broad stroke of they are just like the Nazi's. There might be some commonalities, but there are just as many with the right. Your right that true socialism has not really existed...but then the Nazi's were not true socialists.

BluHorseShu said:

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AgBQ-00 said:

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You are under the delusion that the people actually own anything in a socialist state. The fact is that the STATE owns everything and commands the entirety of economy and the populace for the goals of the state.
The utopian fairytale of the "workers owned paradise" is nothing more than that, a fairytale. It always boils down to the use of extreme authoritarian thuggery and mass murders due to the very nature of socialism. You cannot have people refusing to go along with the State mandated equity and proving the folly of the system.

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People are taking the definitition of socialism and showing exactly how Germany's economy fits the literal definition of socialism. You then asked to prove where they claimed they were socialist, and it was shown to you it was included in the name of their party.

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FIFY.

Thank you.

That is what I have been trying to get at.

BluHorseShu said:

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Matt Hooper said:

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I simply disagree.

I think you are trying too hard to dance around the socialistic/fascistic nature of the Nazi's. Purity of implementation of any economic structure does not exist. It's not definitive in itself - but the Socialists in the party name is no small thing, and I think you dismiss it to readily. I would agree that fascist is better descriptor - but the differences are not of great magnitude. These are but differing traits of leftist authoritarians.

Note - Capitalism does not exist in pure form. Yet capitalism is what one would ascribe to our economic underpinnings.

To the OP original post - Naziism, Fascism are not products of the right (US right terminology). They are products of authoritarian leftists, always and everywhere - however you wish to identify the ….ism.

---

The Nazi's were nationalistic to the extreme, held very traditional values of the family and would have executed LGBTQ or transgendered people. You cannot brush the left in the U.S. with this broad stroke of they are just like the Nazi's. There might be some commonalities, but there are just as many with the right. Your right that true socialism has not really existed...but then the Nazi's were not true socialists.

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So did the USSR.

Ernest Tucker said:

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texagbeliever said:

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1939 said:

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Where did all of the Nazi nonsense come from, especially calling them right wing.

First off, you can't be a Nazi. the Nazi's were a legit (in the sense that they were organized and recognized) political party in Germany in the 30's and 40's; it no longer exists, especially in America where the party never existed in the first place.

Second, they aren't right wing, they were socialists and were most definitely not supporters of Israel and the Jews. How is that "right wing"? Modern day American Democrats = Socialists who do no support Israel - Nazi's sound pretty left wing to me.

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I think the reason they are called right wing is how they did their authortarian transition especially when compared to the USSR. (I dont like this intellectual shorthand personally).

Nazi Germany and USSR both ended up with the same style of government.
USSR path: capitalist -> social revolution that killed capitalists-> socialism (for a very brief time) -> authoritarian command economy
Nazi Path: capitalist -> capitalist becoming bureaucrats-> eventually enough power becomes bureaucratic that remaining capitalists were crushed -> authoritarian command economy.

So it could theoretically be described as right because the capitalists were involved in the movement from the first stage. It is a misrepresentation because the capitalists in the end either became bureaucrats or were eliminated. And generally right and capitalism go together.

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Nazi Path: capitalist -> capitalist becoming bureaucrats-> eventually enough power becomes bureaucratic that remaining capitalists were crushed -> authoritarian command economy.

In todays world we are seeing the capitalist (think majority of largest and most influential Fortune 500) collaborate with leftist ideology and in many cases becoming part of the liberal government bureaucracy. I don't think it's appropriate for these "capitalists" to be associated in any way to the American Conservative movement. Do you?

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I think my other posts help clarify that I'm not describing it as right in terms of this is conservative. It is being defined as right because it first co-opted capitalism to lead to the managerial system. Which is what is happening in America. It did not end up in a capitalist state. It did not end up right. It was a capitalist movement in a way and it was noticeably different than that of the USSR.

The point of belaboring the details above is to wake people up to what is currently happening in America and those parallels. We aren't going to become like the USSR with some giant serf uprising killing all capitalists, we are going to slowly cede the power of capitalists until the power is clearly in the hands of govt/managers. At that point capitalism will be destroyed.

**** nazis

Let em all rot in hell.

Funky Winkerbean said:

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Socialism ends with authoritarian rule, that's why some people equate it to Nazism.

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That's true. But then its not really socialism anymore.

Ah, you are a "true socialism has never been tried" type.

Definitely Not A Cop said:

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texagbeliever said:

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Definitely Not A Cop said:

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BluHorseShu said:

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1939 said:

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Where did all of the Nazi nonsense come from, especially calling them right wing.

First off, you can't be a Nazi. the Nazi's were a legit (in the sense that they were organized and recognized) political party in Germany in the 30's and 40's; it no longer exists, especially in America where the party never existed in the first place.

Second, they aren't right wing, they were socialists and were most definitely not supporters of Israel and the Jews. How is that "right wing"? Modern day American Democrats = Socialists who do no support Israel - Nazi's sound pretty left wing to me.

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The 'socialist' that Hitlers party used was in name only. He only used it to bring in the workers into his nationalist fold. In no way did they operate as socialists.. Hitler only paid lip service to this notion as a means to his end. This is a common misperception. They were nationalists.

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That opposed capitalism. So national socialists.

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Nazi Germany was not socialist.
Socialist is the creation of classless society. Nazi Germany never tried to implement that. USSR did.

It is like this.
Bernie Sanders is the USSR type politician. Pushes for the goal of classless society.
Biden and democrats are Facists (Musolini or Hitler) types that want to slowly grow control of government over the capitalists in order to secure permanent power for themselves in what can be called a command or authoritarian style economy or a "managerial system" as Burnham would put it.

Really important point. Capitalism and socialism are not the only 2 types of economic systems. Just because one is not capitalist doesn't make it socialist.

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You can say it's "classless," but that's not really true. The goal is to get down to one class. The practical reality is that there always ends up being two classes. The normal citizen and the politburo. Both the USSR and Nazi Germany ended up with these class systems, they just used different methods to get there. Nazis had an emphasis on race as a scapegoat to go after the capitalist industries, the USSR used wealth at first, then evolved to any kind of dissent or abnormalization from typical society as a scapegoat. Both went after the banks first.

Socialism is an economic idea, it's the antithesis of capitalism. It's not necessarily a political one. Different political ideologies are proposed to achieve this command economy structure. Both nazism and communism fall under this structure, with different methods of achieving government control over the economy.

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Yes i know socialism fails because classless ( having 1 class is classless) is not practical. So yes outside of USSR no other time in history has socialism been tried. The Nazi party leaders knew they didn't want a classless society rather a 2 tier class society. More feudalistic then capitalist but ultimately best described as managerial. That is not socialist. The importance isn't that Nazis were a conservative movement but recognizing how power is actually stolen from capitalists or willingly ceded (many capitalists became high ranking nazis due to their early buy in).

It is a technicality of splitting hairs. But it is important. Biden isn't a socialist he is a managerial fascist. He doesn't want no class he wants a ruling class and a serf class. Which is what socialism turns into but isn't actual socialism.

Definitely Not A Cop said:

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Ah, you are a "true socialism has never been tried" type.

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It can't really be tried. That doesn't mean the poster supports socialism just that it has never actually existed. Which is an easy argument for advocating against it.

That said the Nazi movement wasn't in order to be socialist by any measure of policy action taken.

Definitely Not A Cop said:

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BluHorseShu said:

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Matt Hooper said:

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I simply disagree.

I think you are trying too hard to dance around the socialistic/fascistic nature of the Nazi's. Purity of implementation of any economic structure does not exist. It's not definitive in itself - but the Socialists in the party name is no small thing, and I think you dismiss it to readily. I would agree that fascist is better descriptor - but the differences are not of great magnitude. These are but differing traits of leftist authoritarians.

Note - Capitalism does not exist in pure form. Yet capitalism is what one would ascribe to our economic underpinnings.

To the OP original post - Naziism, Fascism are not products of the right (US right terminology). They are products of authoritarian leftists, always and everywhere - however you wish to identify the ….ism.

---

The Nazi's were nationalistic to the extreme, held very traditional values of the family and would have executed LGBTQ or transgendered people. You cannot brush the left in the U.S. with this broad stroke of they are just like the Nazi's. There might be some commonalities, but there are just as many with the right. Your right that true socialism has not really existed...but then the Nazi's were not true socialists.

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So did the USSR.

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I'm not saying socialism doesn't lead to that...it has. But then its not really true socialism anymore. The USSR is not true socialism, although they claimed that. It was actually a form of state capitalism with totalitarian control

But it literally is socialism. Capitalist countries have a wide range of political ideologies that construct them. A capitalist society could range from something like a Republic all the way to an anarchy. The underlying tenet is that the government allows the people to run their business without taking ownership of the means of production.

Similarly, socialist economies can have a wide range of political ideologies. The underlying tenet is that the government ultimately controls and owns the market. As was the case in Nazi Germany.

BluHorseShu said:

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Definitely Not A Cop said:

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BluHorseShu said:

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Matt Hooper said:

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I simply disagree.

I think you are trying too hard to dance around the socialistic/fascistic nature of the Nazi's. Purity of implementation of any economic structure does not exist. It's not definitive in itself - but the Socialists in the party name is no small thing, and I think you dismiss it to readily. I would agree that fascist is better descriptor - but the differences are not of great magnitude. These are but differing traits of leftist authoritarians.

Note - Capitalism does not exist in pure form. Yet capitalism is what one would ascribe to our economic underpinnings.

To the OP original post - Naziism, Fascism are not products of the right (US right terminology). They are products of authoritarian leftists, always and everywhere - however you wish to identify the ….ism.

---

The Nazi's were nationalistic to the extreme, held very traditional values of the family and would have executed LGBTQ or transgendered people. You cannot brush the left in the U.S. with this broad stroke of they are just like the Nazi's. There might be some commonalities, but there are just as many with the right. Your right that true socialism has not really existed...but then the Nazi's were not true socialists.

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So did the USSR.

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I'm not saying socialism doesn't lead to that...it has. But then its not really true socialism anymore. The USSR is not true socialism, although they claimed that. It was actually a form of state capitalism with totalitarian control

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Did the government control the economy in the USSR?

BluHorseShu said:

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Matt Hooper said:

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I simply disagree.

I think you are trying too hard to dance around the socialistic/fascistic nature of the Nazi's. Purity of implementation of any economic structure does not exist. It's not definitive in itself - but the Socialists in the party name is no small thing, and I think you dismiss it to readily. I would agree that fascist is better descriptor - but the differences are not of great magnitude. These are but differing traits of leftist authoritarians.

Note - Capitalism does not exist in pure form. Yet capitalism is what one would ascribe to our economic underpinnings.

To the OP original post - Naziism, Fascism are not products of the right (US right terminology). They are products of authoritarian leftists, always and everywhere - however you wish to identify the ….ism.

---

The Nazi's were nationalistic to the extreme, held very traditional values of the family and would have executed LGBTQ or transgendered people. You cannot brush the left in the U.S. with this broad stroke of they are just like the Nazi's. There might be some commonalities, but there are just as many with the right. Your right that true socialism has not really existed...but then the Nazi's were not true socialists.

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I think the actual minutia of social issues/religion vehicle used by Nazis or the modern Left is immaterial to them being different.
They both:
1. Look to expand the role of government in regulatory capacities.
2. Look to takeaway power from religious institutions
3. Control education and indoctrination
4. Disarm the populace
5. Eliminate meritocracy (ESG, DEI) for Nazis that was race based.
6. Coordinate power with big businesses to expand government power. Vaccine mandates. Point 5.

Definitely Not A Cop said:

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Ah, you are a "true socialism has never been tried" type.

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No, it likely has but it spiraled into something else rather quickly. Socialism is idealistic. The USSR is a good example. Its a totalitarian government with state capitalism

BluHorseShu said:

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Definitely Not A Cop said:

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Ah, you are a "true socialism has never been tried" type.

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No, it likely has but it spiraled into something else rather quickly. Socialism is idealistic. The USSR is a good example. Its a totalitarian government with state capitalism

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So socialist, as the state controls the economy, yes.

Definitely Not A Cop said:

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BluHorseShu said:

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Definitely Not A Cop said:

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BluHorseShu said:

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Matt Hooper said:

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I simply disagree.

I think you are trying too hard to dance around the socialistic/fascistic nature of the Nazi's. Purity of implementation of any economic structure does not exist. It's not definitive in itself - but the Socialists in the party name is no small thing, and I think you dismiss it to readily. I would agree that fascist is better descriptor - but the differences are not of great magnitude. These are but differing traits of leftist authoritarians.

Note - Capitalism does not exist in pure form. Yet capitalism is what one would ascribe to our economic underpinnings.

To the OP original post - Naziism, Fascism are not products of the right (US right terminology). They are products of authoritarian leftists, always and everywhere - however you wish to identify the ….ism.

---

The Nazi's were nationalistic to the extreme, held very traditional values of the family and would have executed LGBTQ or transgendered people. You cannot brush the left in the U.S. with this broad stroke of they are just like the Nazi's. There might be some commonalities, but there are just as many with the right. Your right that true socialism has not really existed...but then the Nazi's were not true socialists.

---

So did the USSR.

---

I'm not saying socialism doesn't lead to that...it has. But then its not really true socialism anymore. The USSR is not true socialism, although they claimed that. It was actually a form of state capitalism with totalitarian control

---

Did the government control the economy in the USSR?

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Sure. That doesn't make them socialist. It makes them a totalitarian government with a state capitalism economy. The socialism part might have been an initial movement, but it quickly devolved.

Definitely Not A Cop said:

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But it literally is socialism. Capitalist countries have a wide range of political ideologies that construct them. A capitalist society could range from something like a Republic all the way to an anarchy. The underlying tenet is that the government allows the people to run their business without taking ownership of the means of production.

Similarly, socialist economies can have a wide range of political ideologies. The underlying tenet is that the government ultimately controls and owns the market. As was the case in Nazi Germany.

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If government controls it, that isn't socialist. It becomes what we consider socialist because that is the logical next step of socialism but it isn't socialist. It is like saying capitalist is really socialist because every capitalist society has turned into a socialist society. Or feudal society is really capitalist because feudal societies turn into capitalist societies. Sure. But then what is the point of calling anything anything with such a loose definition.

BluHorseShu said:

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Definitely Not A Cop said:

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BluHorseShu said:

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Definitely Not A Cop said:

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BluHorseShu said:

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Matt Hooper said:

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I simply disagree.

I think you are trying too hard to dance around the socialistic/fascistic nature of the Nazi's. Purity of implementation of any economic structure does not exist. It's not definitive in itself - but the Socialists in the party name is no small thing, and I think you dismiss it to readily. I would agree that fascist is better descriptor - but the differences are not of great magnitude. These are but differing traits of leftist authoritarians.

Note - Capitalism does not exist in pure form. Yet capitalism is what one would ascribe to our economic underpinnings.

To the OP original post - Naziism, Fascism are not products of the right (US right terminology). They are products of authoritarian leftists, always and everywhere - however you wish to identify the ….ism.

---

The Nazi's were nationalistic to the extreme, held very traditional values of the family and would have executed LGBTQ or transgendered people. You cannot brush the left in the U.S. with this broad stroke of they are just like the Nazi's. There might be some commonalities, but there are just as many with the right. Your right that true socialism has not really existed...but then the Nazi's were not true socialists.

---

So did the USSR.

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I'm not saying socialism doesn't lead to that...it has. But then its not really true socialism anymore. The USSR is not true socialism, although they claimed that. It was actually a form of state capitalism with totalitarian control

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Did the government control the economy in the USSR?

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Sure. That doesn't make them socialist. It makes them a totalitarian government with a state capitalism economy. The socialism part might have been an initial movement, but it quickly devolved.

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Would you agree that USSR was a socialist movement that ultimately ended up in a non-socialist state?
Also that the Nazi movement was not a socialist movement that ultimately ended up in the same state as USSR?

BluHorseShu said:

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Definitely Not A Cop said:

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BluHorseShu said:

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Definitely Not A Cop said:

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BluHorseShu said:

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Matt Hooper said:

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I simply disagree.

I think you are trying too hard to dance around the socialistic/fascistic nature of the Nazi's. Purity of implementation of any economic structure does not exist. It's not definitive in itself - but the Socialists in the party name is no small thing, and I think you dismiss it to readily. I would agree that fascist is better descriptor - but the differences are not of great magnitude. These are but differing traits of leftist authoritarians.

Note - Capitalism does not exist in pure form. Yet capitalism is what one would ascribe to our economic underpinnings.

To the OP original post - Naziism, Fascism are not products of the right (US right terminology). They are products of authoritarian leftists, always and everywhere - however you wish to identify the ….ism.

---

The Nazi's were nationalistic to the extreme, held very traditional values of the family and would have executed LGBTQ or transgendered people. You cannot brush the left in the U.S. with this broad stroke of they are just like the Nazi's. There might be some commonalities, but there are just as many with the right. Your right that true socialism has not really existed...but then the Nazi's were not true socialists.

---

So did the USSR.

---

I'm not saying socialism doesn't lead to that...it has. But then its not really true socialism anymore. The USSR is not true socialism, although they claimed that. It was actually a form of state capitalism with totalitarian control

---

Did the government control the economy in the USSR?

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Sure. That doesn't make them socialist. It makes them a totalitarian government with a state capitalism economy. The socialism part might have been an initial movement, but it quickly devolved.

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It literally does. You are making the argument that it's not really socialism if the government isn't fair about it. That's like me claiming the US isn't capitalist because I have to pay sales tax.

Both of you guys keep conflating common social issues with socialism. Socialism has a broad range of different ideologies on social issues. What matters is whether the government controls the economy or not.

Definitely Not A Cop said:

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BluHorseShu said:

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Definitely Not A Cop said:

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Ah, you are a "true socialism has never been tried" type.

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No, it likely has but it spiraled into something else rather quickly. Socialism is idealistic. The USSR is a good example. Its a totalitarian government with state capitalism

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So socialist, as the state controls the economy, yes.

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Sure...You are absolutely correct and what I've been saying holds no merit. You win. Blue star.

BluHorseShu said:

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Definitely Not A Cop said:

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BluHorseShu said:

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Definitely Not A Cop said:

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Ah, you are a "true socialism has never been tried" type.

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No, it likely has but it spiraled into something else rather quickly. Socialism is idealistic. The USSR is a good example. Its a totalitarian government with state capitalism

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So socialist, as the state controls the economy, yes.

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Sure...You are absolutely correct and what I've been saying holds no merit. You win. Blue star.

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Your argument is that the definition of socialism isn't the definition of socialism.

Definitely Not A Cop said:

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BluHorseShu said:

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Definitely Not A Cop said:

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BluHorseShu said:

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Definitely Not A Cop said:

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BluHorseShu said:

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Matt Hooper said:

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I simply disagree.

I think you are trying too hard to dance around the socialistic/fascistic nature of the Nazi's. Purity of implementation of any economic structure does not exist. It's not definitive in itself - but the Socialists in the party name is no small thing, and I think you dismiss it to readily. I would agree that fascist is better descriptor - but the differences are not of great magnitude. These are but differing traits of leftist authoritarians.

Note - Capitalism does not exist in pure form. Yet capitalism is what one would ascribe to our economic underpinnings.

To the OP original post - Naziism, Fascism are not products of the right (US right terminology). They are products of authoritarian leftists, always and everywhere - however you wish to identify the ….ism.

---

The Nazi's were nationalistic to the extreme, held very traditional values of the family and would have executed LGBTQ or transgendered people. You cannot brush the left in the U.S. with this broad stroke of they are just like the Nazi's. There might be some commonalities, but there are just as many with the right. Your right that true socialism has not really existed...but then the Nazi's were not true socialists.

---

So did the USSR.

---

I'm not saying socialism doesn't lead to that...it has. But then its not really true socialism anymore. The USSR is not true socialism, although they claimed that. It was actually a form of state capitalism with totalitarian control

---

Did the government control the economy in the USSR?

---

Sure. That doesn't make them socialist. It makes them a totalitarian government with a state capitalism economy. The socialism part might have been an initial movement, but it quickly devolved.

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It literally does. You are making the argument that it's not really socialism if the government isn't fair about it. That's like me claiming the US isn't capitalist because I have to pay sales tax.

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No you are confusing the inspiration of a movement with actual technicalities of said movement. If I start a capitalist revolution but it ends up with me as king is that a capitalist system? No it is feudal. Just because it at one point in the middle was capitalist doesn't make it eternally so if the characteristics aren't a match.

To you the definition of socialist is not capitalist. And
The definition of capitalist is not socialist. There are several other forms of economic societies. That make these definitions false.

Marx viewed socialism as a precursor to communism. Hitler's fascist National Socialist Party (Nazi) was authoritarian and with a goal of either communal run industry or state-run industry, whether they would have been socialist or communist, is six of one, half dozen of the other. They do have "socialist" right there in their name though. Revisionist history is the only way you can say, "oh well, he just took over the socialist party so laborers would support him; he wasn't really socialist". Free handouts and gaining support of the poor and the laborers is how socialism takes over anyway.

Other than state pride / patriotism, similarities with conservatives or the right wing in America today are mostly reaches. MAGA on the right appealing to laborers and pulling a lot of lower income previous socialist voters away from the socialist dem party scares the f out of them. The reaction- let's go full Marxist authoritarian left and program the masses that it's fascist Trump's fault.

texagbeliever said:

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Definitely Not A Cop said:

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BluHorseShu said:

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Definitely Not A Cop said:

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BluHorseShu said:

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Definitely Not A Cop said:

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BluHorseShu said:

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Matt Hooper said:

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I simply disagree.

I think you are trying too hard to dance around the socialistic/fascistic nature of the Nazi's. Purity of implementation of any economic structure does not exist. It's not definitive in itself - but the Socialists in the party name is no small thing, and I think you dismiss it to readily. I would agree that fascist is better descriptor - but the differences are not of great magnitude. These are but differing traits of leftist authoritarians.

Note - Capitalism does not exist in pure form. Yet capitalism is what one would ascribe to our economic underpinnings.

To the OP original post - Naziism, Fascism are not products of the right (US right terminology). They are products of authoritarian leftists, always and everywhere - however you wish to identify the ….ism.

---

The Nazi's were nationalistic to the extreme, held very traditional values of the family and would have executed LGBTQ or transgendered people. You cannot brush the left in the U.S. with this broad stroke of they are just like the Nazi's. There might be some commonalities, but there are just as many with the right. Your right that true socialism has not really existed...but then the Nazi's were not true socialists.

---

So did the USSR.

---

I'm not saying socialism doesn't lead to that...it has. But then its not really true socialism anymore. The USSR is not true socialism, although they claimed that. It was actually a form of state capitalism with totalitarian control

---

Did the government control the economy in the USSR?

---

Sure. That doesn't make them socialist. It makes them a totalitarian government with a state capitalism economy. The socialism part might have been an initial movement, but it quickly devolved.

---

It literally does. You are making the argument that it's not really socialism if the government isn't fair about it. That's like me claiming the US isn't capitalist because I have to pay sales tax.

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No you are confusing the inspiration of a movement with actual technicalities of said movement. If I start a capitalist revolution but it ends up with me as king is that a capitalist system? No it is feudal. Just because it at one point in the middle was capitalist doesn't make it eternally so if the characteristics aren't a match.

To you the definition of socialist is not capitalist. And
The definition of capitalist is not socialist. There are several other forms of economic societies. That make these definitions false.

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A monarchy would be a capitalist society if he doesn't control the economy.

You are misrepresenting what I have said. A capitalist society is one where the individuals control the economy. A socialist society is one where the government controls the economy.

Definitely Not A Cop said:

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BluHorseShu said:

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Definitely Not A Cop said:

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BluHorseShu said:

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Definitely Not A Cop said:

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BluHorseShu said:

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Matt Hooper said:

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I simply disagree.

I think you are trying too hard to dance around the socialistic/fascistic nature of the Nazi's. Purity of implementation of any economic structure does not exist. It's not definitive in itself - but the Socialists in the party name is no small thing, and I think you dismiss it to readily. I would agree that fascist is better descriptor - but the differences are not of great magnitude. These are but differing traits of leftist authoritarians.

Note - Capitalism does not exist in pure form. Yet capitalism is what one would ascribe to our economic underpinnings.

To the OP original post - Naziism, Fascism are not products of the right (US right terminology). They are products of authoritarian leftists, always and everywhere - however you wish to identify the ….ism.

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The Nazi's were nationalistic to the extreme, held very traditional values of the family and would have executed LGBTQ or transgendered people. You cannot brush the left in the U.S. with this broad stroke of they are just like the Nazi's. There might be some commonalities, but there are just as many with the right. Your right that true socialism has not really existed...but then the Nazi's were not true socialists.

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So did the USSR.

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I'm not saying socialism doesn't lead to that...it has. But then its not really true socialism anymore. The USSR is not true socialism, although they claimed that. It was actually a form of state capitalism with totalitarian control

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Did the government control the economy in the USSR?

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Sure. That doesn't make them socialist. It makes them a totalitarian government with a state capitalism economy. The socialism part might have been an initial movement, but it quickly devolved.

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It literally does. You are making the argument that it's not really socialism if the government isn't fair about it. That's like me claiming the US isn't capitalist because I have to pay sales tax.

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Okay. You are making a black and what distinction where it is absolutely more nuanced. Socialists control the economy for the benefit of the people. The USSR absolutely did not hold that ideology. Everything was for the state, regardless what was best for the people. A monarchy or autocracy can control the economy too. It doesn't make them socialist.

BluHorseShu said:

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Definitely Not A Cop said:

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BluHorseShu said:

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Definitely Not A Cop said:

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BluHorseShu said:

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Definitely Not A Cop said:

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BluHorseShu said:

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Matt Hooper said:

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I simply disagree.

I think you are trying too hard to dance around the socialistic/fascistic nature of the Nazi's. Purity of implementation of any economic structure does not exist. It's not definitive in itself - but the Socialists in the party name is no small thing, and I think you dismiss it to readily. I would agree that fascist is better descriptor - but the differences are not of great magnitude. These are but differing traits of leftist authoritarians.

Note - Capitalism does not exist in pure form. Yet capitalism is what one would ascribe to our economic underpinnings.

To the OP original post - Naziism, Fascism are not products of the right (US right terminology). They are products of authoritarian leftists, always and everywhere - however you wish to identify the ….ism.

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The Nazi's were nationalistic to the extreme, held very traditional values of the family and would have executed LGBTQ or transgendered people. You cannot brush the left in the U.S. with this broad stroke of they are just like the Nazi's. There might be some commonalities, but there are just as many with the right. Your right that true socialism has not really existed...but then the Nazi's were not true socialists.

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So did the USSR.

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I'm not saying socialism doesn't lead to that...it has. But then its not really true socialism anymore. The USSR is not true socialism, although they claimed that. It was actually a form of state capitalism with totalitarian control

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Did the government control the economy in the USSR?

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Sure. That doesn't make them socialist. It makes them a totalitarian government with a state capitalism economy. The socialism part might have been an initial movement, but it quickly devolved.

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It literally does. You are making the argument that it's not really socialism if the government isn't fair about it. That's like me claiming the US isn't capitalist because I have to pay sales tax.

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Okay. You are making a black and what distinction where it is absolutely more nuanced. Socialists control the economy for the benefit of the people. The USSR absolutely did not hold that ideology. Everything was for the state, regardless what was best for the people. A monarchy or autocracy can control the economy too. It doesn't make them socialist.

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Yes it does. The nuance is whether they are communist, fascist, etc.

Socialism and capitalism are the genus. Whether it's communist, democratic, etc are the species falling under that genus.

BluHorseShu said:

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Matt Hooper said:

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I simply disagree.

I think you are trying too hard to dance around the socialistic/fascistic nature of the Nazi's. Purity of implementation of any economic structure does not exist. It's not definitive in itself - but the Socialists in the party name is no small thing, and I think you dismiss it to readily. I would agree that fascist is better descriptor - but the differences are not of great magnitude. These are but differing traits of leftist authoritarians.

Note - Capitalism does not exist in pure form. Yet capitalism is what one would ascribe to our economic underpinnings.

To the OP original post - Naziism, Fascism are not products of the right (US right terminology). They are products of authoritarian leftists, always and everywhere - however you wish to identify the ….ism.

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The Nazi's were nationalistic to the extreme, held very traditional values of the family and would have executed LGBTQ or transgendered people. You cannot brush the left in the U.S. with this broad stroke of they are just like the Nazi's. There might be some commonalities, but there are just as many with the right. Your right that true socialism has not really existed...but then the Nazi's were not true socialists.

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The left is exactly like the Nazi's but with different views. They would be utterly ecstatic should they be able to eliminate those who disagree with them.

Really ironic from those who are most likely to be rocking the stupid Coexist bumper stickers

dead said:

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Their name doesn't count?

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Kinda like not knowing "what is a woman"?