Ol Army 01 said:

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Do you really think Russia is Naive enough to think if we've sent $110B dollars over and blown up the Nord Stream pipeline; we wouldn't also have boots on the grounds?

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Posters on this very site assured us we are not in Ukraine.

I too questioned their intellect.

Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

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cypress-ag said:

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If we want to worry about an invasion look no further than our own southern border. I don't give 2 damns about the Ukraine or Russia, I do care about our country being invaded by God knows who and we are letting them walk right in and giving them health care, housing and cell phones.

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The war in Ukraine is not why we're ignoring the southern border. The two have no link.

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Considering congress said we couldn't afford a 15 b border wall yet we have sent ten times that to some corrupt **** hole…

says you're not getting the connection or being willfully obtuse.

Demosthenes81 said:

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NPH- said:

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Demosthenes81 said:

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NPH- said:

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I kindly request that our ghost moderator consider deleting this thread & banning this "rookie" user.

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I will go on record as agreeing with the OP. I too grew up under the cold war and came to believe killing Communists is generally a good thing. Russian communists, Chinese communists, Vietnamese, Korean, Cuban etc. are the enemy, then now and into the future. The largest component of our aid is weapons and training. Those are a net zero cost to me. The hardware was sitting idle and we have not drawn down supplies of critical defense equipment that would be needed in any foreseeable future near term conflict. The training we are giving, and the resulting intelligence we are receiving should be giving us a much better idea of our enemy's capabilities than the wasteful wars of the Clinton/Bush the elder and lesser/Obama/Trump/Biden administrations.

The canard of "we should be doing XYZ instead" is a false dichotomy. There is plenty of money for border protection, veteran care and other Constitutionally Allowable activity. Instead we waste money forgiving people 's debts that they freely entered in to, promising a free and risk free existence to exercise "rights" that are created out of thin air and paying for large segments of our society to sit on their collective asses and vote for more free stuff and reparations.

Finally, and this is a personal belief that I know not everyone agrees with, but I believe that genocide, real genocide not the fake treatment yelled out by the flag people, should be opposed wherever it rears its despicable head. And if you do not believe that Ukrainians have been the victim of systemic genocide then you have your head up the putinistas rear end there is no hope for you.

Deus vult! Amen.

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did chatgpt help you with this?

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No I have the privilege of having a History and Political Science degree from A&M from a time when it produced quality graduates.

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Explains the cheese ball prose. Should've used gpt

Señor Chang said:

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Demosthenes81 said:

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The hardware was sitting idle and we have not drawn down supplies of critical defense equipment that would be needed in any foreseeable future near term conflict.

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Biden's Secretary of the Navy disagrees with this statement.

https://www.newsweek.com/us-run-out-weapons-ukraine-navy-secretary-1773120

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Another interesting point the Uke fanboys assured us was not the case. It's like they are batting 0 fee on everything.

Pumpkinhead said:

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From 2001-2021 we spent an estimated $8 trillion in Afghanistan and actually HAD troops dying and fighting over there.

This Ukraine thing is a fraction of the cost compared to Afghanistan with none of our troops actually fighting. Taking a bite out of the Russians. Do posters here really care that much? I don't remember daily threads on here 2016-2020 complaining about Afghanistan costs even though that effort had long gone past the point of justifying us still being over there.

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8 trillion huh?

Pumpkinhead said:

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schmellba99 said:

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Pumpkinhead said:

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From 2001-2021 we spent an estimated $8 trillion in Afghanistan and actually HAD troops dying and fighting over there.

This Ukraine thing is a fraction of the cost compared to Afghanistan with none of our troops actually fighting. Taking a bite out of the Russians. Do posters here really care that much? I don't remember daily threads on here 2016-2020 complaining about Afghanistan costs even though that effort had long gone past the point of justifying us still being over there.

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There were plenty of threads on the cost of the wars, especially as they drug into the second decade of fighting.

People appear to care more about Ukraine because 1) after 20+ years of fighting, the populace is weary of it and doesn't want to get engaged in a conflict that we have no business being engaged in, 2) the politics around this one are sketchy at best given the fact that Biden doesn't even hide the fact that he and his family are making bank on it and 3) even idiots realize that a national debt of $30 trillion is unsustaniable, much less with 8% inflation and a government that is as corrupt as any banana republic that ever existed.

People are tired of the BS and are making their voices heard.

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Fair enough. If folks are being consistent in their criticism and isn't just a Biden Blame Game political spin zone thing, I can respect that.

Cause we were sending lots of money to Ukraine too for military buildup in 2016-2020…been doing that even more heavily after 2014 Crimea. And folks, even if new POTUS in 2024…that area being a trouble spot ain't going to change. You are not going to see a U.S. govt stop caring about Europe or Ukraine. This thing is far more complicated with a long history than any single POTUS administration.

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Please cite "lots of money". It wasn't even 1 b per year. Stop with the nonsense whitewashing of this stupid ass conflict.

lol , gonna rule 1 this thread
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Tom Kazansky 2012 said:

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Ol Army 01 said:

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Do you really think Russia is Naive enough to think if we've sent $110B dollars over and blown up the Nord Stream pipeline; we wouldn't also have boots on the grounds?

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Posters on this very site assured us we are not in Ukraine.

I too questioned their intellect.

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We aren't.

plata o plomo said:

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I grew up during the cold war, we have been preparing for Russia for decades. Im baffled that so many americans fall for russian propoganda. We should limit our spending, but russia is in no way in the right, that leaker is a coward and fool

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Why shouldn't we invade Russia? Why shouldn't we nuke them? What are you, a Putin-loving stooge?

plata o plomo said:

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I grew up during the cold war, we have been preparing for Russia for decades. Im baffled that so many americans fall for russian propoganda. We should limit our spending, but russia is in no way in the right, that leaker is a coward and fool

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I grew up and turned 18 during Vietnam...I remember my mother crying in the kitchen for her sister and her lost nephews, my mother worried that I would be next. Thank-fully the war ended before I was called up.

I thought Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan taught us a lesson...

FYI your right about the leaker..

When you live in the most corrupt country in the world, nothing is real - everything is fake. There were no lessons to learn. The machine wants war - it gets war. Very profitable, hegemonic tool. We F everyone over to secure our prosperity.

plata o plomo said:

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russia and china are bigger concerns than juan pablo and maria coming to the US illegally to work a blue collar job

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When 'Pablo' and 'Maria' are carrying bags of fentanyl, terrorist gang members acting as cheap labor, women chained for sex trafficking and stolen children from other families, it's a BIG problem.

Ukraine isn't worth a single drop of American blood.

DeSantis was right. We should water our own yard.

doubledog said:

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plata o plomo said:

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I grew up during the cold war, we have been preparing for Russia for decades. Im baffled that so many americans fall for russian propoganda. We should limit our spending, but russia is in no way in the right, that leaker is a coward and fool

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I grew up and turned 18 during Vietnam...I remember my mother crying in the kitchen for her sister and her lost nephews, my mother worried that I would be next. Thank-fully the war ended before I was called up.

I thought Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan taught us a lesson...

FYI your right about the leaker..

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This isn't Vietnam or Iraq or Afghanistan. There are no body bags coming home.

Now If people want to criticize our defense budget and the financial aspects of something like this, fine.

We're buying something with our money. Even more money in return. Our global economic position benefits greatly from the respect afforded us in our alliances and treaties, and we leverage that, along with general global economic stability, into more efficient and profitable global trade and on terms that are often more favorable to us in deference to our ability to ensure that security and stability. It's good to be the king. But you aren't the king if you let chaos or challenges your supremacy go unaddressed.

Yeah a 190,000 mile '82 Pinto for $60K but yeah we are getting something for hammering transgender Russia's nuts into cream.

Prolly not imo. The end game will
Likely be the same as if we were never involved . Russia takes what they want at a higher cost than they expected and all the wrong people get richer in the process. That's what I believe .

Zelensky exiles to his beachfront condo at some resort location.

Disappointed this hasnt been posted yet

Looking at a small picture. Nothing global occurs in a vacuum. The uS stands by and lets other nations get bullied, especially one right next to several allies under similar nascent threat, and whom we made security promises to, EVERYONE takes notice that we are fine with that paradigm, and we lose status and influence. Status and influence of the magnitude we have is very arguably worth many trillions of dollars over time in benefits gained or costs avoided.

And the world trend is people are abandoning the dollar in the world market and anyone who doesn't celebrate the rainbow flag is pulling their assets out of the US in case Biden decides to seize their assets like they are Russian oligarchs. Our involvement in Ukraine has hurt our status not improved it.

Wer'e weak because we have ultra weak leadership who I believe don't even really care about America's status except to the degree that it impacts their ability to steal and influence . Putin knows it , Xi knows it. Everyone knows it. Dribbling billions away a little at a time isn't going to change it.

There is no good coming from this for the US sans maybe learning a bit about Russia's military weaknesses . If we ever get a real President and other leadership back in place that truly care about America maybe that could be valuable .

The real opportunity to show the world US strength was to tell them in no uncertain terms that this thing won't end well for you if you do it. That ship
Sailed a long time ago. Same ship May sail in Taiwan as well altho there are some
Stronger players there in Japan and S Korea that will probably have more to say about the outcome than the Euro weaklings do. The Euro's can't chew gum without US help.

I very much disagree. The data I have seen does not support your conclusions.

BRICS nations have been claiming for 2 decades they were going to abandon the dollar. Haven't done it yet. OPEC even before I was born. Still using the dollar. Even if they did is everyone going to t stampede over to their less secure, even more easily manipulated competing currency of choice?

Our NATO Allies are polling well with their satisfaction with the alliance, it's overall benefits, and of their overall opinion of the USA right now. They are mostly positive and see it as a positive association. This helps us with mutually beneficial economic trade, and also helps reduce our collective defense costs.

I'm not saying all wars can or will do this, but we are likely getting a huge long term bargain out of this in reduced future defense costs while Ukraine goes all the fighting. If Russia becomes a shell of its former military power for the foreseeable future, that's less we need to spend in mitigating that threat. The more mutual defensive alliances we are in, the lower chance in general there will be destabilizing and economically destructive wars involving any members. That's good for trade, which is good for us.

Don't be so quick to focus on only a subset of data or on the short term. We all know Biden sucks, and his administration is corrupt, but it doesn't follow that means we should be against everything it does reflexively. We also no longer live in a world where isolationism works. It just doesn't. It is less efficient and actually less secure.

The only positive I see is if this slows China down but to me, Russia is the new sick man of Europe. In a perverse way I'm glad China and Iran are helping Russia so they don't feel that their only remaining edge is their nuclear arsenal.

The ruble is stronger today than it was last February. A new axis of evil is forming with China, Russia and Iran. We will be seeing more Biden like administrations in the future versus Reagan-like based on voting trends. Our days of running the world are ending.

I hope the last part is wrong. I'm not saying I think
It is but I feel like at some point enough people will
Realize we are declining because the priorities and focus and even the motivations of
Our leadership are so frieking far off base, and that we need a dramatic change of direction.

I don't see that alliance being anything significant. Russia's economy is growing weaker as its trade is hampered. It just hasn't see the full effect of the sanctions yet. China has been noncommittal. They want to gain status and cause is problems but also don't want to latch themselves to the Russian millstone. Not any more than they feel benefits their own triangulation game. Russia likewise needs Chinese manufacturing but it can't negotiate away the farm and it will refuse to be seen as not having a senior status in any relationship. They aren't a great match now that the CCP doesn't see Russia as the marxist big brother.
Iran is a thorn in the side of everyone. A problem for any ally they find as often as not. A good customer also, but not a nation any of them is willing to go to war over in the end.

Ask yourself this, if the Euro's (excluding possibly the UK) had a choice to help us if we were embroiled in a war would they help us significantly. . I think the answer is pretty clear. NATO appears to be a one way arrangement, not to say the arrangement hasn't helped us over the years but when it really comes down to war they are basically toothless. We are the teeth.

I meant this as an edit to last post, not a reply to my own post

BQ78 said:

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The only positive I see is if this slows China down but to me, Russia is the new sick man of Europe. In a perverse way I'm glad China and Iran are helping Russia so they don't feel that their only remaining edge is their nuclear arsenal.

The ruble is stronger today than it was last February. A new axis of evil is forming with China, Russia and Iran. We will be seeing more Biden like administrations in the future versus Reagan-like based on voting trends. Our days of running the world are ending.

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The ruble is not stronger today than it was last February. Good lord that is the dumbest thing I've read on this thread and that is saying something.

It is however almost exactly the same
As what it was from 2020 until the invasion. Vs the usd.

halfastros81 said:

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It is however almost exactly the same
As what it was from 2020 until the invasion. Vs the usd.

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You can look at the USD/RUB and EUR/RUB number on a screen all you want, but when a currency is made unavaliable to trade on most FOREX markets, you're left with a theoretical number that doesn't mean jack chit. It's like trading a microcap stock with 0 liquidity with massive price spreads because no one is buying or selling it.

There is no demand for the ruble from any central bank in the world (outside of the Kremlin's CB). Try trading in your dollars for rubles (if you can) and go anywhere in the world outside of Russia and try to purchase a hamburger.

Get back to me on the result.

I only stated a fact and I am not saying your conclusion is right or wrong. I have no desire to deal in rubles. It has ebbed and flowed since the invasion Which indicates there is some market activity, perhaps as you suggest all inside of Russia.