GAC06 said:

---

Yes

---

Interesting. How do the units you are assigned to maintain medical readiness as dictated by the DoD? What issues arise when individual service members are not medically cleared to deploy, etc.?

I'm not sure what branch you are in but in the Army medical readiness is a huge priority. Going Red in any area of MEDPROS is a major no-no that can lead to major issues, especially in times of deployments overseas.

Yeah- they're unmotivated. That's a natural subset of Junior reservists. Sounds like you got the last 6 sorted out, but could've gotten the same result w/o the pay fiasco.

That aside: nobody really sees flu shots as a readiness issue. Getting to 100% for a certain date is a game that folks play when they fixate on reporting. But everyone knows that when a unit activates it gets cycled through a gymnasium and any outstanding soldiers get stuck with everything they're delinquent on. Effectively you presented yourself to the unit as a hardass regarding an issue of appearance. Sobel.

Teslag said:

---

Quote:

---

Senators also rejected a Republican proposal by Senators Ted Cruz of Texas and Ron Johnson of Wisconsin to reinstate and provide back pay to service members who were dismissed by the military for refusing to take the coronavirus vaccine.

---

Good deal. Failure to follow lawful orders should never be rewarded. It is the foundation of who we are in the military.

---

"Lawful order" is the term in question.

Teslag said:

---

I absolutely 100% was. My choices after that were to commit suicide, let it happen again, or be better. I chose the latter.

---

Well sadly you are likely with your support of an ineffective jab putting some more in their graves!

Also your support has gone beyond just following orders as you have been a cheerleader on the issue for a long time even after the science said otherwise. You do it with glee.

The soldiers that didn't do it they are the ones that made the sacrifice and many of them have lost careers and more because of it.

Get Off My Lawn said:

---

Yeah- they're unmotivated. That's a natural subset of Junior reservists. Sounds like you got the last 6 sorted out, but could've gotten the same result w/o the pay fiasco.

That aside: nobody really sees flu shots as a readiness issue. Getting to 100% for a certain date is a game that folks play when they fixate on reporting. But everyone knows that when a unit activates it gets cycled through a gymnasium and any outstanding soldiers get stuck with everything they're delinquent on. Effectively you presented yourself to the unit as a hardass regarding an issue of appearance. Sobel.

---

The army does. Maybe not in the marines but as Panzer said, anything red in MEDROS is a ****storm.

I don't know. I've deployed in that timeframe. Sometimes it will be mentioned, I just ignore it. Last spring the O-6 flight surgeon mentioned during my flight physical that I hadn't gotten the flu shot. I said, that's correct and flu season is over. End of discussion.

Five years ago my unit made a big deal about it so I went to Walgreens, paid $20, presented a receipt for the shot, and logged a drill.

Lucky. Wish we had it that easy

One year I actually got my flu shot from CVS instead of Walgreens. CVS didn't put my birthday and lot number on the receipt. So the army rejected it and I went Amber. They made me get another shot from Walgreens.

I hope you didn't actually get another shot. The receipt works fine. I put as much effort into pencil whipped policies as they put thought into it. Goes for the vaccine in question on this thread too.

GAC06 said:

---

I don't know. I've deployed in that timeframe. Sometimes it will be mentioned, I just ignore it. Last spring the O-6 flight surgeon mentioned during my flight physical that I hadn't gotten the flu shot. I said, that's correct and flu season is over. End of discussion.

Five years ago my unit made a big deal about it so I went to Walgreens, paid $20, presented a receipt for the shot, and logged a drill.

---

Good for you, I guess. However, as a member of the military you grasp how what you just described is, at best, problematic. If everyone in uniform were to take that mentality, that being "I'll do what I want", how long it be before readiness collapsed across the military?

It didn't work just fine. They refused to accept it. If the status says I'm non compliant that's it end of discussion. I'm hounded and action taken until green.

It's not really pencil whipable You have to upload it to a portal and the status is cleared by big army medical.

I mean I hope you provided another receipt.

If my receipt wasn't valid, I woukd have gone to another pharmacy, gotten another, and logged another drill still without getting the shot

GAC06 said:

---

I mean I hope you provided another receipt.

If my receipt wasn't valid, I round hade gone to another pharmacy, gotten another, and logged another drill still without getting the shot

---

Based.

Slippery slope fallacy

Bragging about taking away a whole $399 in drill pay

I have a conspiracy theory that the contractor that manages it has a deal in place with Walgreens and forces the issue

That's your take? Yikes.

Get Off My Lawn said:

---

Teslag said:

---

Get Off My Lawn said:

---

Yeah- they're unmotivated. That's a natural subset of Junior reservists. Sounds like you got the last 6 sorted out, but could've gotten the same result w/o the pay fiasco.

That aside: nobody really sees flu shots as a readiness issue. Getting to 100% for a certain date is a game that folks play when they fixate on reporting. But everyone knows that when a unit activates it gets cycled through a gymnasium and any outstanding soldiers get stuck with everything they're delinquent on. Effectively you presented yourself to the unit as a hardass regarding an issue of appearance. Sobel.

---

The army does. Maybe not in the marines but as Panzer said, anything red in MEDROS is a ****storm.

---

A ****storm and an actual readiness issue can be 2 separate things.

I'll reaffirm that no serious person sees a flu shot as a true readiness issue. Warfighting neither cares about a flu shot (with variable effectiveness against the virus) nor about the flu (which manifests as a low and fleeting impairment for most). If **** really hit the fan: Army fixation on most "readiness" metrics would be off like a prom dress.

Again: this is a bureaucratic game and regardless of the pressures YOU may be aware of - your soldiers should be rolling their eyes. When it comes to readiness: MOS proficiency, functioning bodies, and unit culture are the ACTUAL issues of import. You've sacrificed things that actually matter to chase colors on a PowerPoint slide.

---

Someone is obviously a marine and not in the army. Focusing on the mundane is who we are. A red status in MEDPROS will even flag soldiers to prevent their promotion and school attendance. It's automated and there's nothing I can do about it.

GAC06 said:

---

Slippery slope fallacy

---

Fallacy or not doing what you described. that being "I'll do what I want when I want", is hardly conducive to good order and discipline. And you recognize this. I'm guessing that if some PFC told you he wasn't going to do something you ordered him to do that you would crush his balls.

Rules for thee and not for me.

Pookers said:

---

titan said:

---

Pookers said:

---

Teslag said:

---

Pookers said:

---

Teslag said:

---

1. Booster was never mandated
2. No soldier was ever mandated to get an experimental vaccine

---

You can hide behind the thin veneer of the bull**** word games pfizer and the FDA plays but everybody with two functioning brain cells knows these mRNA jabs are experimental.

---

Which is a fair belief to have. But those definitions have legal meaning. especially in regard to UCMJ. Rank and file simply cannot dictate their own policy. The term "above my pay grade" exists for a reason.

---

Gotcha, back to "just doin muh job". Personally, I'd retire or be discharged before forcing these things on people.

---

After making an unambiguous and loud protest. Much closer to that Lt.Col. Scheller.

---

There are some things worth "falling on the sword" for and this is one of them IMO.

---

Not an attack - Do you really want a military with an officer corps that behaves in this manner? The officers you have left after all the resignations in protest are going to be either partisans or apathetic.

As long as we have civilian oversight of the military, we are going to be subject to their directives ("orders" in UCMJ parlance...a "lawful order" under the UCMJ is not always going to be in alignment with the ethics/morals/politics of the individuals serving). Following "lawful orders" is one of the foundational tenets of American military service...an honorable profession that, for better or for worse, comes with arguably dumb/unnecessary vaccine mandates, personal risk in adherence to hamstrung ROEs, and a myriad of other moral/ethical challenges that we may not personally agree with...meaning, officers would be dropping out left & right.

One can hold Lt Col Scheller up as a hero who followed his conscience, but the fact is he's not able to lead Marines anymore...and that might be a shame, as we need leaders of character now maybe more than ever. The institution isn't going to change a thing because he quit. No one servicemember is so precious that it won't march on without them. We might have a chance if those leaders with character continue the fight inside the service to be able to make change for the better. Officers like him could have done worlds of good for their soldiers/sailors/airmen/marines by staying in but it wouldn't get as much press or attaboys. It's a thankless pursuit to do it from the inside, within the areas we control and influence, but has merit and can/will make a difference, at least for our troops.

I wouldn't order a PFC to do something stupid. Also I'm glad I'm not a PFC. The military institutes stupid policies, and they get pencil whipped. A tale as old as time.

Teslag said:

---

Get Off My Lawn said:

---

Teslag said:

---

Get Off My Lawn said:

---

Yeah- they're unmotivated. That's a natural subset of Junior reservists. Sounds like you got the last 6 sorted out, but could've gotten the same result w/o the pay fiasco.

That aside: nobody really sees flu shots as a readiness issue. Getting to 100% for a certain date is a game that folks play when they fixate on reporting. But everyone knows that when a unit activates it gets cycled through a gymnasium and any outstanding soldiers get stuck with everything they're delinquent on. Effectively you presented yourself to the unit as a hardass regarding an issue of appearance. Sobel.

---

The army does. Maybe not in the marines but as Panzer said, anything red in MEDROS is a ****storm.

---

A ****storm and an actual readiness issue can be 2 separate things.

I'll reaffirm that no serious person sees a flu shot as a true readiness issue. Warfighting neither cares about a flu shot (with variable effectiveness against the virus) nor about the flu (which manifests as a low and fleeting impairment for most). If **** really hit the fan: Army fixation on most "readiness" metrics would be off like a prom dress.

Again: this is a bureaucratic game and regardless of the pressures YOU may be aware of - your soldiers should be rolling their eyes. When it comes to readiness: MOS proficiency, functioning bodies, and unit culture are the ACTUAL issues of import. You've sacrificed things that actually matter to chase colors on a PowerPoint slide.

---

Someone is obviously a marine and not in the army. Focusing on the mundane is who we are. A red status in MEDPROS will even flag soldiers to prevent their promotion and school attendance. It's automated and there's nothing I can do about it.

---

I feel like agreement that the Army is a non-serious institution is a good output of this thread.

…and oddly ties in well with OP about continued mandate of an obsolete shot.

One was always free to choose to get the vaccine.

One though could not choose to be free of the consequences of that choice.

GAC06 said:

---

I wouldn't order a PFC to do something stupid. Also I'm glad I'm not a PFC. The military institutes stupid policies, and they get pencil whipped. A tale as old as time.

---

I actually agree with this sentiment but it's getting harder and harder as things go digital and automated. There are things commanders used to be able to overlook that they no longer can.

Teslag said:

---

BigRobSA said:

---

Teslag said:

---

Well I counseled and didn't let 6 soldiers get paid this past weekend because they haven't got their flu vaccine yet (brigade directive was to have it by December 1st). So chew on that one for a bit.

---

That's gayer than Elton John and Liberace gettin' it on.

Nothing like useless shots as a primer to expulsion.

---

We also kick people out for smoking a plant on non-duty hours which is equally stupid but I don't make the rules.

---

So the military demands that its employees follow the command they're given by their superiors or face the consequences? W.T.F.

Get Off My Lawn said:

---

Teslag said:

---

Get Off My Lawn said:

---

Yeah- they're unmotivated. That's a natural subset of Junior reservists. Sounds like you got the last 6 sorted out, but could've gotten the same result w/o the pay fiasco.

That aside: nobody really sees flu shots as a readiness issue. Getting to 100% for a certain date is a game that folks play when they fixate on reporting. But everyone knows that when a unit activates it gets cycled through a gymnasium and any outstanding soldiers get stuck with everything they're delinquent on. Effectively you presented yourself to the unit as a hardass regarding an issue of appearance. Sobel.

---

The army does. Maybe not in the marines but as Panzer said, anything red in MEDROS is a ****storm.

---

A ****storm and an actual readiness issue can be 2 separate things.

I'll reaffirm that no serious person sees a flu shot as a true readiness issue. Warfighting neither cares about a flu shot (with variable effectiveness against the virus) nor about the flu (which manifests as a low and fleeting impairment for most). If **** really hit the fan: Army fixation on most "readiness" metrics would be off like a prom dress.

Again: this is a bureaucratic game and regardless of the pressures YOU may be aware of - your soldiers should be rolling their eyes. When it comes to readiness: MOS proficiency, functioning bodies, and unit culture are the ACTUAL issues of import. You've sacrificed things that actually matter to chase colors on a PowerPoint slide.

---

In times of war, you are correct. The absurdity of the military red tape is often pushed aside in order to complete the mission. However, we aren't in a war. We are discussing the mentally of leaders, high ranking leaders, in a garrison environment. In garrison things like MEDPROS, haircuts, uniforms, etc. all become hyper important as being 100% in all areas becomes paramountt. Garrison commanders, who by the nature of being in garrison and not on the battlefield, often looks to administrative numbers to build up their "reputation" for being high speed.

GAC06 said:

---

I wouldn't order a PFC to do something stupid. Also I'm glad I'm not a PFC. The military institutes stupid policies, and they get pencil whipped. A tale as old as time.

---

You've never given an order with which you disagreed? Not to be antagonistic but I don't believe that for one second.

We absolutely agree on that lol. And I'll be honest with you, if I had a great soldier who did everything by the book and he didn't get his flu shot I'd possibly look the other way. Hell, maybe even take his CAC and get it for him. But I don't have that leeway anymore with digital record and reporting. If big army wants it, they will get it. With or without me.

PanzerAggie06 said:

---

GAC06 said:

---

I wouldn't order a PFC to do something stupid. Also I'm glad I'm not a PFC. The military institutes stupid policies, and they get pencil whipped. A tale as old as time.

---

You've never given an order with which you disagreed? Not to be antagonistic but I don't believe that for one second.

---

I didn't say that.

GAC06 said:

---

PanzerAggie06 said:

---

GAC06 said:

---

I wouldn't order a PFC to do something stupid. Also I'm glad I'm not a PFC. The military institutes stupid policies, and they get pencil whipped. A tale as old as time.

---

You've never given an order with which you disagreed? Not to be antagonistic but I don't believe that for one second.

---

I didn't say that.

---

Semantics. Obtuseness is not a good look.

Doofuses like Salute the Vaccines on this thread are why I give pause when talking to my wife about my sons someday serving in our armed forces.

You're going from one fallacy to another. Do better.

GAC06 said:

---

You're going from one fallacy to another. Do better.

---

As opposed to your word games built in the defense of a point of view that you know is not tenable in the US military?

Do better, indeed.