fka ftc said:

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How consistent is that across states? I would assume Soros is a HUGE proponent of not just sealed records but expungement, for all crimes, for all criminals regardless of age. I would suspect that is part of the actual DNC platform, if not at least some of it.

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Varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. In general, once a record is expunged, it can't be found in any database, as it is removed from the directory.

aginlakeway said:

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fka ftc said:

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HtownAg92 said:

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Question for the DAs / FBI / LEO -- can you dig into the histories of suspects to see if there is some sort of earlier psychotic episode or behavior that would otherwise be sealed -- like mental health treatment or juvi record? Seems like something this horrific would not be committed by someone on their first rodeo. There would be some troubling incident in the past.

I know, privacy and HIPAA and all that -- but can FBI investigators access it?

I guess related to this -- would that sort of thing show up on a FBI background check for a firearm purchase?

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At age 15 Co-ed Killer Ed Kemper shot grandma in the head, then two more shots for good measure, waited on grandpa to get home and plugged him too then called his mom who told him to call police and he turned himself in. At age 21 he was released and by age 22 he convinced all the psychiatrists he was fully rehabilitated and all his juvenile records expunged.

So sealed vs expunged, I too would be curious as to how this practically works. Who holds the key to open sealed records, even "unofficially"?

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He is also still in prison in California after getting 8 life sentences. What a winner.

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Eligible for parole in 2024. Opportune time for him to meet with Ol Joe and ask for a pardon.

aggiehawg said:

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Quote:

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.On November 15, Moscow police said they preliminarily "believe this was an isolated, targeted attack and there is no imminent threat to the community at large," and that "evidence indicates that this was a targeted attack."

Yet the following day, police backtracked some of that, saying they couldn't actually say whether there was a threat to the public."

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When the FBI shows up with 2 serial killer profilers in tow, tends to change perspective of the local law enforcement, maybe?

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Unless there's a federal crime involved, the FBI doesn't just show up. Even given the proximity of Moscow, ID to the WA state line, murder is not a federal crime unless it took place on federal property - a military base, national park, inside a federal building, etc.

So, absent a federal crime that the public isn't being told about, the Feds are there because their presence was requested by the local or state authorities. They're there in a support role, most likely mainly in the area of forensic analysis, plus they'll have much better access to be able to look for similar incidents across the country. The Feds have resources that the locals simply don't, especially in a small town like this. Heck, even Brazos County, which is 10x as big as the locality here, doesn't have it's own crime lab, and all the LE agencies there have to send stuff to the DPS labs in Austin or Houston. Idaho may only have one full up crime lab for the whole state.

Honestly, the biggest challenge for a PD the size of the Moscow PD, in a small town, is going to be public affairs/media relations, and we're seeing that in spades. I guarantee you that public affairs is not the primary job of whomever handles it, it's an additional duty, and that person probably deals with maybe 3 reporters (local paper, local TV, maybe a student reporter for the campus paper) on a regular basis. Now they've got national and international media camped out on their front lawn demanding updates every time anyone enters or leaves the building.

Quote:

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Unless there's a federal crime involved, the FBI doesn't just show up. Even given the proximity of Moscow, ID to the WA state line, murder is not a federal crime unless it took place on federal property - a military base, national park, inside a federal building, etc.

So, absent a federal crime that the public isn't being told about, the Feds are there because their presence was requested by the local or state authorities. They're there in a support role, most likely mainly in the area of forensic analysis, plus they'll have much better access to be able to look for similar incidents across the country.

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Asking for forensic help is one thing. But the FBI sent 24 agents including 2 from behavioral analysis unit. That's not normal for a forensics request.

There is also this:

Quote:

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MOSCOW, Idaho The Idaho state crime lab has prioritized testing on evidence from the Moscow home where four University of Idaho students were murdered on Nov. 13, according to authorities.

Idaho State Police (ISP) Forensic Services is "doing much of the forensics analysis" in the case, which is a "priority for them," ISP Public Information Officer Aaron Snell told Fox News Digital in a Friday interview.

"There have been scientists working 24/7 in the lab to try and get back some of those results in quick order," Snell continued. "So, while there's other cases going on, this case is a priority. And we're starting to get back some results."

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LINK

But you make a good point about the (apparent) lack of federal jurisdiction.

Quote:

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In fact, both had as juveniles. One had a charge of DUI and the other had a charge of possession of a small amount of marijuana. They both agreed to deferred adjudications which meant that upon successful completion of the terms of the DA, their records would be expunged. Plus, as juvies, their records were supposedly sealed.

We had as a matter of routine done a high-end background check on them as with all other bank officers. Both had shown squeaky clean.

We asked the regulators how they had gotten access to that information, and they just smiled smugly, shrugged, and refused to answer.

The lesson I learned from that is nothing is ever truly expunged or sealed.

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Difference being that a regulatory issue doesn't have the same issues as evidentiary requirements for a criminal trial.

If you remember how Hank Paulson coerced all of the banks to participate in TARP was by having the head of the FDIC at the time sitting behind him. Threat was, she could shut them down anytime she wanted.

There was an update today.

"In their latest update, Moscow police revealed a sixth person is listed on the lease at the King Road home where the four students were killed. However, they do not believe this person was at the house at the time of the murder."

https://www.ktvb.com/article/news/crime/university-of-idaho-murders-latest-information/293-a3407110-d02c-4172-b837-831678e0c110

Someone needs to make a podcast about this already. What the **** happened here?!

Jabin said:

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aggiehawg said:

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fka ftc said:

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How consistent is that across states? I would assume Soros is a HUGE proponent of not just sealed records but expungement, for all crimes, for all criminals regardless of age. I would suspect that is part of the actual DNC platform, if not at least some of it.

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Varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. In general, once a record is expunged, it can't be found in any database, as it is removed from the directory.

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Not necessarily true.

I was once on a Bank board and we got crosswise with the regulators. They kept increasing the pressure on us and we kept telling them to pound sand.

Eventually, they notified us that they had withdrawn approval of our Bank's President and CFO, which essentially forced us to shut down the bank. Their reason for withdrawing approval was that those two individuals had allegedly lied on their approval forms to the regulators where they had denied ever having been accused or charged of any crimes.

In fact, both had as juveniles. One had a charge of DUI and the other had a charge of possession of a small amount of marijuana. They both agreed to deferred adjudications which meant that upon successful completion of the terms of the DA, their records would be expunged. Plus, as juvies, their records were supposedly sealed.

We had as a matter of routine done a high-end background check on them as with all other bank officers. Both had shown squeaky clean.

We asked the regulators how they had gotten access to that information, and they just smiled smugly, shrugged, and refused to answer.

The lesson I learned from that is nothing is ever truly expunged or sealed.

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They probably searched jail bookings in whatever local paper that served the area these guys grew up in.

Jabin said:

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aggiehawg said:

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fka ftc said:

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How consistent is that across states? I would assume Soros is a HUGE proponent of not just sealed records but expungement, for all crimes, for all criminals regardless of age. I would suspect that is part of the actual DNC platform, if not at least some of it.

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Varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. In general, once a record is expunged, it can't be found in any database, as it is removed from the directory.

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Not necessarily true.

I was once on a Bank board and we got crosswise with the regulators. They kept increasing the pressure on us and we kept telling them to pound sand.

Eventually, they notified us that they had withdrawn approval of our Bank's President and CFO, which essentially forced us to shut down the bank. Their reason for withdrawing approval was that those two individuals had allegedly lied on their approval forms to the regulators where they had denied ever having been accused or charged of any crimes.

In fact, both had as juveniles. One had a charge of DUI and the other had a charge of possession of a small amount of marijuana. They both agreed to deferred adjudications which meant that upon successful completion of the terms of the DA, their records would be expunged. Plus, as juvies, their records were supposedly sealed.

We had as a matter of routine done a high-end background check on them as with all other bank officers. Both had shown squeaky clean.

We asked the regulators how they had gotten access to that information, and they just smiled smugly, shrugged, and refused to answer.

The lesson I learned from that is nothing is ever truly expunged or sealed.

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That's the sort of dirty you sit on then spring when convenient. Like when trying to shut down a bank.

Quote:

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They probably searched jail bookings in whatever local paper that served the area these guys grew up in.

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Nope, they had all of the details.

Smeghead4761 said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Quote:

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.On November 15, Moscow police said they preliminarily "believe this was an isolated, targeted attack and there is no imminent threat to the community at large," and that "evidence indicates that this was a targeted attack."

Yet the following day, police backtracked some of that, saying they couldn't actually say whether there was a threat to the public."

---

When the FBI shows up with 2 serial killer profilers in tow, tends to change perspective of the local law enforcement, maybe?

---

Unless there's a federal crime involved, the FBI doesn't just show up. Even given the proximity of Moscow, ID to the WA state line, murder is not a federal crime unless it took place on federal property - a military base, national park, inside a federal building, etc.

So, absent a federal crime that the public isn't being told about, the Feds are there because their presence was requested by the local or state authorities. They're there in a support role, most likely mainly in the area of forensic analysis, plus they'll have much better access to be able to look for similar incidents across the country. The Feds have resources that the locals simply don't, especially in a small town like this. Heck, even Brazos County, which is 10x as big as the locality here, doesn't have it's own crime lab, and all the LE agencies there have to send stuff to the DPS labs in Austin or Houston. Idaho may only have one full up crime lab for the whole state.

Honestly, the biggest challenge for a PD the size of the Moscow PD, in a small town, is going to be public affairs/media relations, and we're seeing that in spades. I guarantee you that public affairs is not the primary job of whomever handles it, it's an additional duty, and that person probably deals with maybe 3 reporters (local paper, local TV, maybe a student reporter for the campus paper) on a regular basis. Now they've got national and international media camped out on their front lawn demanding updates every time anyone enters or leaves the building.

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why wouldn't the FBI be involved if there is a murder or crime across multiple state lines?

As a college student, if I had a situation where I thought someone was passed out and I couldn't get in, I may be too scared to go in without authorities first. We also don't know the actual contents of the 911 call. But due to mental health in current college students, if I were to come across this situation I would call the police too, I wouldn't want to walk into something that may be disturbing or traumatizing to see. And as this was a small town I'm sure they knew the response time for authorities was probably very quick. (Especially on a Sunday mid-day).
I do think some things don't add up, but as for multiple people talking to 911, maybe someone did see something and was freaking out and the others had to step in to have a calmer person talk to the dispatcher.

For all wondering about FBI authorization to investigate:

https://www.fbi.gov/about/faqs/where-is-the-fbis-authority-written-down#:~:text=The%20FBI%20has%20special%20investigative,%C2%A7540B).

" The FBI has special investigative jurisdiction to investigate violations of state law in limited circumstances, specifically felony killings of state law enforcement officers (28 U.S.C. 540), violent crimes against interstate travelers (28 U.S.C. 540A0), and serial killers (28 U.S.C. 540B). A request by an appropriate state official is required before the FBI has authority to investigate these matters."

Quote:

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" The FBI has special investigative jurisdiction to investigate violations of state law in limited circumstances, specifically felony killings of state law enforcement officers (28 U.S.C. 540), violent crimes against interstate travelers (28 U.S.C. 540A0), and serial killers (28 U.S.C. 540B). A request by an appropriate state official is required before the FBI has authority to investigate these matters."

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That's the only that applies unless you consider a student from out of state a "traveler."

aggiehawg said:

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Quote:

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" The FBI has special investigative jurisdiction to investigate violations of state law in limited circumstances, specifically felony killings of state law enforcement officers (28 U.S.C. 540), violent crimes against interstate travelers (28 U.S.C. 540A0), and serial killers (28 U.S.C. 540B). A request by an appropriate state official is required before the FBI has authority to investigate these matters."

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That's the only that applies unless you consider a student from out of state a "traveler."

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I think four fatalities might qualify for "serial killer" in Fedthink. 3 or more qualifies per this monograph:
https://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/serial-murder

UTExan said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Quote:

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" The FBI has special investigative jurisdiction to investigate violations of state law in limited circumstances, specifically felony killings of state law enforcement officers (28 U.S.C. 540), violent crimes against interstate travelers (28 U.S.C. 540A0), and serial killers (28 U.S.C. 540B). A request by an appropriate state official is required before the FBI has authority to investigate these matters."

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That's the only that applies unless you consider a student from out of state a "traveler."

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I think four fatalities might qualify for "serial killer" in Fedthink. 3 or more qualifies per this monograph:
https://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/serial-murder

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Serial killer requires two or more murders in separate incidents. All in one incident is a mass killing.

And note the last part - it requires a request by an appropriate state official. The Feebs can't just parachute in and take over. Like vampires, they have to be invited.

Quote:

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All in one incident is a mass killing.

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That's my understanding as well.

Only 2 miles to the state line

Smeghead4761 said:

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UTExan said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Quote:

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" The FBI has special investigative jurisdiction to investigate violations of state law in limited circumstances, specifically felony killings of state law enforcement officers (28 U.S.C. 540), violent crimes against interstate travelers (28 U.S.C. 540A0), and serial killers (28 U.S.C. 540B). A request by an appropriate state official is required before the FBI has authority to investigate these matters."

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That's the only that applies unless you consider a student from out of state a "traveler."

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I think four fatalities might qualify for "serial killer" in Fedthink. 3 or more qualifies per this monograph:
https://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/serial-murder

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Serial killer requires two or more murders in separate incidents. All in one incident is a mass killing.

And note the last part - it requires a request by an appropriate state official. The Feebs can't just parachute in and take over. Like vampires, they have to be invited.

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You are correct. They differentiate mass murder vs serial murder vs spree murder.

On high profile cases the FBI is usually willing to help. They investigate many cases that are tried in state court.

Nothing unusual about this.

bonfarr said:

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24NewAg said:

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As a college student, if I had a situation where I thought someone was passed out and I couldn't get in, I may be too scared to go in without authorities first. We also don't know the actual contents of the 911 call. But due to mental health in current college students, if I were to come across this situation I would call the police too, I wouldn't want to walk into something that may be disturbing or traumatizing to see. And as this was a small town I'm sure they knew the response time for authorities was probably very quick. (Especially on a Sunday mid-day).
I do think some things don't add up, but as for multiple people talking to 911, maybe someone did see something and was freaking out and the others had to step in to have a calmer person talk to the dispatcher.

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This reminds me of a time in college when I lived with two other guys in an old 4 plex on Wellesley Ct. The Super for the building was a guy named Juan that spoke very little English, just a few words and phrases really. The landlord would send Juan over to fix things or to bug us when the rent was late.

We had a big party one night and the next morning both shower doors were locked and we couldn't open them so we called the landlord to have Juan come by to open them. The setup was Hollywood style bathrooms with one shared tub/shower and two matching bathrooms attached. Both doors to the shower were locked and while we were all sprawled out Juan looks around and sees all the beer cans and stuff and says "you have big party huh" the. goes in and unlocks the door and comes running out yelling "there's a dead girl in there" in broken English. We all stare at him and he looks at us and says go look. All of us turn white thinking some chick with alcohol poisoning or something died in our tub and we run in there and the tub is empty and Juan just starts laughing and slapping the knees on his Wrangler jeans like it was the funniest thing ever.

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LMAOOOO

24NewAg said:

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As a college student, if I had a situation where I thought someone was passed out and I couldn't get in, I may be too scared to go in without authorities first. We also don't know the actual contents of the 911 call. But due to mental health in current college students, if I were to come across this situation I would call the police too, I wouldn't want to walk into something that may be disturbing or traumatizing to see. And as this was a small town I'm sure they knew the response time for authorities was probably very quick. (Especially on a Sunday mid-day).
I do think some things don't add up, but as for multiple people talking to 911, maybe someone did see something and was freaking out and the others had to step in to have a calmer person talk to the dispatcher.

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I don't fault anyone from calling 911. I was wondering about there being several people on the 911 call. After my post, someone either stated or posted a link to a story wherein apparently one of those on the call freaked out or fainted which isn't something I thought about. If that was the case, and with the pandemonium involved in the situation I can see now why more than one person was on the 911 call. I am finding I would have made a very poor detective!

Reminds me of the murder of college kids in Florida in 90s where the sicko stabbed and placed decapitated head of one victim on mantle.

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/murdered-students-are-discovered-at-the-university-of-florida

TRADUCTOR said:

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Reminds me of the murder of college kids in Florida in 90s where the sicko stabbed and placed decapitated head of one victim on mantle.

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/murdered-students-are-discovered-at-the-university-of-florida

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I forgot about that one, it was at UF. I remember a ton of girls withdrew from school when the murders was all over the news.

In College Station the only heinous murders I remember were Shamburger and the Ynobe Matthews guy that killed a girl and tossed her out of a moving car and then raped and murdered another girl that he made friends with.

I was a student when the Shamburger case happened.

Hope this is not a false alarm.

Quote:

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A handprint can be seen next to an evidence tape on the window of the house where four University of Idaho students were murdered on Nov. 13.

The University of Idaho students, Ethan Chapin, 20; Xana Kernodle, 20; Madison Mogen, 21; and Kaylee Goncalves, 21, died after being stabbed to death between the hours of 3 and 4 a.m on Nov. 13. Police haven't yet arrested a suspect in relation to the murders.

Police say that the four victims were in various places throughout Moscow before returning to the King Road house by 1:56 a.m. Ethan and Xana were at a party at the Sigma Chi fraternity house on campus on the night of Nov. 12 and didn't return home until 1:45 a.m. on Nov. 13.

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LINK

Hopefully it's a clue, but there is no telling how old that print is.

True. Doubt the girls were that diligent in cleaning windows.

That is a male handprint.

Nothing other than instinct, I'm starting to feel it was Jack (Kaylees ex). At service yesterday, he was on stage with her family but did not speak. Maddie boyfriend speech was heart breaking.

MsDoubleD81 said:

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Nothing other than instinct, I'm starting to feel it was Jack (Kaylees ex). At service yesterday, he was on stage with her family but did not speak. Maddie boyfriend speech was heart breaking.

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He's been cleared HTH

TRADUCTOR said:

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That is a male handprint.

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How do you know that?