On Bitcoin's 14th birthday, I learned even back then it was too hardcore libertarian

3,452 Views | 36 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by TexasRebel
exp
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Even the original cypherpunks thought Bitcoin's implications were too hardcore libertarian for the discussion forums. We see similar trends today among Ags here at TexAgs. The majority here despise the left, either sympathize with or strongly hold libertarians ideals, and yet can't or won't open their eyes to the biggest freedom revolution happening right under their financial advisors noses.

Bitcoin is freedom and should be one of the most important political issues to most on this forum in my humble opinion. Separate money and state.

Krombopulos Michael
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It would be easier to go back to a gold standard.
ChiefKiefton
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I'll stick with my gold and silver. Bitcoin is a scam and will crash to zero at some point.
CDUB98
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Welp, we found out Adverse Event's real account.
hunter2012
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Adverse Event
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False.

Just like 1 btc = 1 btc

AE = AE
titan
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If the white paper is that short, please post a link and will read it. This kind of thing is usually out of easy grasp, but if its so clear it can be summarized that compactly maybe it will be good to read.
Adverse Event
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titan said:


If the white paper is that short, please post a link and will read it. This kind of thing is usually out of easy grasp, but if its so clear it can be summarized that compactly maybe it will be good to read.














https://bitcoin.org/en/bitcoin-paper
titan
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Thanks!

Edit
Reading it now -- two questions up front ----

What is "double spending problem" --- please explain as if 15?

I notice the dependency on honest nodes outnumbering attackers--with all the global plots and hacks today, is this a given it will outpace the malicious?
Adverse Event
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Some of us have been expecting you to get to this point.

Looking forward to your thoughts.

Another piece of literature I'd ask you to consume is "the sovereign individual, if you havent already:
https://www.amazon.com/Sovereign-Individual-Mastering-Transition-Information/dp/0684832720?ref=d6k_applink_bb_dls&dplnkId=6d56a6d5-78cc-469c-b52b-110035d1f80a

exp
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titan said:


Thanks!

Edit
Reading it now -- two questions up front ----

What is "double spending problem" --- please explain as if 15?

I notice the dependency on honest nodes outnumbering attackers--with all the global plots and hacks today, is this a given it will outpace the malicious?
Double spend problem is about how do you know that the digital money that was just sent to you by Bob wasn't already spent elsewhere? This has traditionally been solved by creating "trusted intermediaries" or centralized ledgers called banks in today's world. To create a monetary network that disintermediates banks, you need a way to prove that your money is unique and not spent in multiple places.

This also deals with the concept of absolute scarcity in that with Bitcoin there is no way to create more money out of thin air like in fiat. You can't simply print Bitcoin. You can only do the physical work to create it through mining process.

You can read the whitepaper at bitcoin.org

Here are a few video explainers if you care to dive deeper

titan
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Thanks! Your explanation makes perfectly clear, and even puts a light on banks and one of their key roles never quite thought of that way, but of course is true. As reading the white paper, its making sense and that was just a term could tell played a role in its presuppositions. Okay.
exp
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Titan let me just say that I've been going at it with you on these forums in a fun and intellectual way for damn near 20 years now. I'm quite delighted to see you express some open minded interest in this topic. If indeed you ever want to learn more, I would be quite happy to help you on your journey.

Bitcoin is the most stimulating teacher I have come across in all my years. The rabbit hole is deep.
one safe place
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CDUB98 said:

Welp, we found out Adverse Event's real account.
Little doubt he (or she) would be driving a pink cadillac if working for Mary Kay
exp
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https://medium.com/@nic__carter/bitcoin-at-12-f6fce39cb9bb

"Twelve years ago today, on Halloween 2008, exactly 491 years after Martin Luther nailed his theses to the door of Wittenberg Castle Church, the idea of Bitcoin was born. More accurately, you could say it was baptized. The network itself wouldn't exist in a truly live and peer-to-peer fashion until the following January. Block 1, the first 'true' block, was mined on the ninth, and digital cash pioneer Hal Finney received the first transaction on the tenth of the month."

...

"Bitcoin has often confused people. It's perhaps one of the most misunderstood phenomena of the last decade. If you lack sufficient ideological and historical context, you most likely consider it a complete boondoggle or a bizarre, unnecessary waste of computing power and effort. This is the default position. Most people in the West rarely give any thought to monetary policy or banking why should they? Their currencies depreciate at a slow, barely perceptible rate. Their bank arrangements work fairly well, and they don't find themselves frozen out of the financial system too often."

...

"Recently, the great monetary historian George Selgin pointed out that Bitcoin was unlikely to displace the dollar anytime soon, because monetary network effects are incredibly powerful and enduring. And I fully agree. The difference between us is simply one of time horizons. I am willing to be patient. I believe Bitcoiners have this in common. They recognize that they have undertaken a near-hopeless task. Creating a global, neutral, apolitical settlement medium and standard of value will not happen overnight. We have barely begun the project. We are only twelve years in. But we have made some great progress so far. So we push forward.

What's the measure of a healthy society? Arguably, it's a willingness to undertake long term projects, whose completion their originators will never live to see. Virtually anything worth building takes time to build. Enduring institutions don't come easy."

...

Great read from Nic Carter 2 years ago.
titan
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exp,

That's interesting and amusing. Thanks. This kind of thing is generally "out of my wheelhouse" but once heard the paper was that short, (I have zero problem with length---but what it also meant by implication is it would be comprehensible and like the documents compared to, clear in intent. And it is -- this paper is making plenty of sense at least conceptually. A friend of mine is into this kind of thing far more, and can at least discuss it now.
Adverse Event
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one safe place said:

CDUB98 said:

Welp, we found out Adverse Event's real account.
Little doubt he (or she) would be driving a pink cadillac if working for Mary Kay




Sorry I talk like a ***.
TexasRebel
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Just wait until you think about what happens to a fixed supply of bitcoin that are unrecoverable when lost while the supporters are being patient, slipping into dementia, dying, and losing keys.
Deplorable
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titan said:


If the white paper is that short, please post a link and will read it. This kind of thing is usually out of easy grasp, but if its so clear it can be summarized that compactly maybe it will be good to read.


Here you go, Coinbase links the white papers - which I always thought was cool.

https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
Adverse Event
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exp
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Adverse Event said:

Not a very strong thinker, are ya son?
Respectfully, AE, and you know I love you, I don't appreciate the energy you bring to my threads. As soon as we start attacking each other, people put up walls and dialogue ceases. I'm interested in meeting people where they are and having honest discussions with those (few) that are interested.

Your style, which I understand and appreciate in many ways, detracts from my goal. If you don't mind, I would respectfully ask that you hold back the intensity on my threads please.
Adverse Event
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You're right, trolls get me cranked up.
exp
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MuchosPollos said:

It would be easier to go back to a gold standard.
Goldbugs and Bitcoiners are actually very alike. We agree on the problem and only disagree on the solution. There's lots of common ground here.

Our biggest critique of gold is that because it is hard to transfer value across space, it lends itself to centralization, i.e. storage at vaults and banks. This centralization is easy for corrupt governments to exploit (see 1913 in US when all gold in vaults was confiscated and private possession outlawed). This centralization also leads to paper money issuance...receipts on gold, which inevitably get printed at greater amounts than the reserves would allow. This is the scope creep of paper money turning into fiat money with no base layer backing.

"Layered Money" by Nik Bhatia is a great book about this.

https://www.amazon.com/Layered-Money-Dollars-Bitcoin-Currencies-ebook/dp/B08PS293NT
Its Texas Aggies, dammit
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exp said:

MuchosPollos said:

It would be easier to go back to a gold standard.
Goldbugs and Bitcoiners are actually very alike. We agree on the problem and only disagree on the solution. There's lots of common ground here.

Our biggest critique of gold is that because it is hard to transfer value across space, it lends itself to centralization, i.e. storage at vaults and banks. This centralization is easy for corrupt governments to exploit (see 1913 in US when all gold in vaults was confiscated and private possession outlawed). This centralization also leads to paper money issuance...receipts on gold, which inevitably get printed at greater amounts than the reserves would allow. This is the scope creep of paper money turning into fiat money with no base layer backing.

"Layered Money" by Nik Bhatia is a great book about this.

https://www.amazon.com/Layered-Money-Dollars-Bitcoin-Currencies-ebook/dp/B08PS293NT


Anything by Lawrence Lepard would be of interest to a Goldbug. He runs a fund that invests in both.
tysker
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Plenty of centralization in the BTC space. The public has not been informed if the large holders are individuals, entities, or governments
MRB10
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Can you explain to me why the number of coins that "whale" wallets own, expressed as a percentage of all coins in circulation, is a critique on the decentralization aspect of the network?

It is 100% an issue in a proof of stake system but I'm struggling to understand your point since BTC is proof of work.

IE. The fact that the exchanges own XX% of all coins doesn't impact me and my "shrimp" holdings one iota, unless there is something I'm missing.
exp
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People own Bitcoin in proportion to their past risk acceptance. There will always be winners and losers in energy terms in a free market. Bitcoin as a network is a much, much safer place to allocate energy resources today than it was 10 or even 5 years ago.

The topic of decentralization and Bitcoin literally has no overlap with the topic of who owns how many coins. Your post IMO is rooted in a basic misunderstanding of what decentralization is and why it is important.
TexAgs91
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ChiefKiefton said:

I'll stick with my gold and silver. Bitcoin is a scam and will crash to zero at some point.
Yup. I just wish I had bought a few hundred shares when it was at a dollar and sold it when it was $60k/BTC
No, I don't care what CNN or MSNBC said this time
Ad Lunam
tysker
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Never forget the Golden Rule - He who has the gold, makes the rules. BTC as an asset is susceptible to concentration just like any other asset. What is the value to the individual when ownership is concentrated in the hands of the few?
exp
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tysker said:

Never forget the Golden Rule - He who has the gold, makes the rules. BTC as an asset is susceptible to concentration just like any other asset. What is the value to the individual when ownership is concentrated in the hands of the few?



What you're talking about applies to Ethereum and proof of stake coins. It does not apply at all to Bitcoin.
tysker
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exp said:

tysker said:

Never forget the Golden Rule - He who has the gold, makes the rules. BTC as an asset is susceptible to concentration just like any other asset. What is the value to the individual when ownership is concentrated in the hands of the few?



What you're talking about applies to Ethereum and proof of stake coins. It does not apply at all to Bitcoin.
I thoroughly disagree. BTC is priced on speculation and adoption. As its ownership concentrates, the sole use case for BTC trends toward zero, which reinforces the lack of need for widespread adoption.


edit: for missing an important word
tysker
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Quote:

Our biggest critique of gold is that because it is hard to transfer value across space, it lends itself to centralization, i.e. storage at vaults and banks. This centralization is easy for corrupt governments to exploit (see 1913 in US when all gold in vaults was confiscated and private possession outlawed). This centralization also leads to paper money issuance...receipts on gold, which inevitably get printed at greater amounts than the reserves would allow. This is the scope creep of paper money turning into fiat money with no base layer backing.
I would argue the same critiques are easily made with BTC. Concentrated ownership via vaults wallets (owned by governments, entities, exchanges) has already been shown to exploit small asset holders who have staked their coins with that government, entity, exchange. Plus those concentrated positions are incentivized create unnecessary, unregulated, and unmitigated leverage and risk.
exp
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Agree to disagree. But thanks for the chat.
TexasRebel
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I wonder if James Howells would rather search a landfill for gold, than the bitcoin he lost on a USB drive that likely still won't be recoverable even if located.
Its Texas Aggies, dammit
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TexasRebel said:

I wonder if James Howells would rather search a landfill for gold, than the bitcoin he lost on a USB drive that likely still won't be recoverable even if located.


Maybe if he had made the effort to memorize 12 words, he would still have his BTC.
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