CondensedFogAggie said:

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What a piece of *****

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Feelings > Reality

*** Do not post Twitter shots that bypass obscenity filters -- Staff ***

Well Ukraine did give all of its governing members a rather large increase in salary. Maybe they can use some of that money for Starlink

I don't think we're getting the full story here. Lots of folks over there were paying monthly fees out of pocket. Does it really cost a lot to turn these things on? Bandwidth cost $20m per day or whatever?

Once Musk couldn't play the hero, while Putin probably threatened him, he is indeed taking his ball and going home.

Like Ukraine needs to now kiss the gift horse ass.

Musk needs to close on Twitter asap.

Good job Musk

I think Elon is entirely correct in asking to be paid. Where did he or Star Link sign up to give free services to Ukraine? This is a business and profitability should be the bottom line. When did the American taxpayer sign up to fund the Ukrainian state to the tune of endless billions of dollars? What Elon should do is simply cut the service off and tell them to go elsewhere.

Can anyone summarize what was in the OP?

Bird Poo said:

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I don't think we're getting the full story here. Lots of folks over there were paying monthly fees out of pocket. Does it really cost a lot to turn these things on? Bandwidth cost $20m per day or whatever?

Once Musk couldn't play the hero, while Putin probably threatened him, he is indeed taking his ball and going home.

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Weird how it's always an attack on an opponents character.

He was a hero 6 months ago, now he's a small dk coward

Ukraine told Musk to F off so musk is ending starlink in Ukraine.

PlaneCrashGuy said:

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Can anyone summarize what was in the OP?

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Musk was told to eff off by a Ukrainian official because he wanted the pentagon to cover the costs of starlink.

Now he's likely pulling out of Ukraine because it's operating at a loss and the mob is big mad.

He was told to "f-off" when he proposed a peace settlement on twitter where the annexed portions of Ukraine vote to join Russia or Ukraine while Russia still calls for unconditional surrender.

Or am I thinking of something else?

The Debt said:

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PlaneCrashGuy said:

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Can anyone summarize what was in the OP?

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Musk was told to eff off by a Ukrainian official because he wanted the pentagon to cover the costs of starlink.

Now he's likely pulling out of Ukraine because it's operating at a loss and the mob is big mad.

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The bolded part is NOT what happened. He suggested that Ukraine concede the Donbas and Crimea and was told to **** off. He did this under a bizarre idea that the UN would monitor free and fair elections, somehow forgetting that Russia is on the UNSC, and that Russia has killed and/or relocated people from those areas and forced votes at gunpoint.

The Debt said:

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Waffledynamics said:

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Multiple things can be true at once:

1. Starlink has been incredibly valuable to Ukraine's efforts to fight off Russia's illegal invasion

2. SpaceX/Musk should not be expected to fund this effort into insolvency. They're not a government with ludicrous amounts of money

3. Musk is acting like a dick. He showed his ass by repeating Russian negotiating talking points, got called out on it, and appears to be throwing a tantrum.

4. Billionaires really need to stop pretending to be quasi-public officials. Nobody elected them.

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#3 is amusing. "Russia wants X" "OMG THATS RUSSIAN PROPAGANDA, LOLOLOL STUPID BILLIONAIRE RICHEST MAN IN THE UNIVERSE IS PARROTING RUSSIAN TALKING POINTS, IM SO SMART AND HES SO DUMB."

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By your logic, Jeff Bezos and Bill Gates are your superiors, and you should listen to and follow everything that they say.

Yes, Musk repeated Russian negotiation points. They want the very parts Musk said they should concede.

Waffledynamics said:

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The Debt said:

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Waffledynamics said:

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Multiple things can be true at once:

1. Starlink has been incredibly valuable to Ukraine's efforts to fight off Russia's illegal invasion

2. SpaceX/Musk should not be expected to fund this effort into insolvency. They're not a government with ludicrous amounts of money

3. Musk is acting like a dick. He showed his ass by repeating Russian negotiating talking points, got called out on it, and appears to be throwing a tantrum.

4. Billionaires really need to stop pretending to be quasi-public officials. Nobody elected them.

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#3 is amusing. "Russia wants X" "OMG THATS RUSSIAN PROPAGANDA, LOLOLOL STUPID BILLIONAIRE RICHEST MAN IN THE UNIVERSE IS PARROTING RUSSIAN TALKING POINTS, IM SO SMART AND HES SO DUMB."

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By your logic, Jeff Bezos and Bill Gates are your superiors, and you should listen to and follow everything that they say.

Yes, Musk repeated Russian negotiation points. They want the very parts Musk said they should concede.

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Where the hell did i say they were better? Do they have access to knowledge you and I don't? Absolutely. Do you think they sit around and watch the trash on the infotainment "news" channels? Absolutely not.

The fact that Russia wants lands filled with russians is detestable. Truly sickening. These russians have been treated with absolute respect and love from the loving Ukrainian government we helped install after we removed their backward proRussian leadership.

The Debt said:

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Waffledynamics said:

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The Debt said:

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Waffledynamics said:

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Multiple things can be true at once:

1. Starlink has been incredibly valuable to Ukraine's efforts to fight off Russia's illegal invasion

2. SpaceX/Musk should not be expected to fund this effort into insolvency. They're not a government with ludicrous amounts of money

3. Musk is acting like a dick. He showed his ass by repeating Russian negotiating talking points, got called out on it, and appears to be throwing a tantrum.

4. Billionaires really need to stop pretending to be quasi-public officials. Nobody elected them.

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#3 is amusing. "Russia wants X" "OMG THATS RUSSIAN PROPAGANDA, LOLOLOL STUPID BILLIONAIRE RICHEST MAN IN THE UNIVERSE IS PARROTING RUSSIAN TALKING POINTS, IM SO SMART AND HES SO DUMB."

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By your logic, Jeff Bezos and Bill Gates are your superiors, and you should listen to and follow everything that they say.

Yes, Musk repeated Russian negotiation points. They want the very parts Musk said they should concede.

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Where the hell did i say they were better? Do they have access to knowledge you and I don't? Absolutely. Do you think they sit around and watch the trash on the infotainment "news" channels? Absolutely not.

The fact that Russia wants lands filled with russians is detestable. Truly sickening. These russians have been treated with absolute respect and love from the loving Ukrainian government we helped install after we removed their backward proRussian leadership.

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How do you keep getting these lies and propaganda points blown apart in just about every one of these threads and keep repeating them?

I don't honestly know what to say anymore. It just gets ignored by Russia sympathizers.

Musk is a damn genius.

*war starts*
"Free internet for Ukraine"
*6 months*
"I need a blank check or the internet can get ****ed"

Ukraine isn't going to lose access to the internet, our stupid government is probably going to do what Musk wants and foot the bill, so the hand-wringing can stop.

I'm on the side of Ukraine in this conflict, but the reality of what this conflict really is are getting starker and starker as it drags on. This war would have ended ages ago if it wasn't for the west seemingly funding the entire country of Ukraine. The "green" energy movement is very much the same.

So maybe next time the government of Ukraine wants to bite someone's head off because they didn't send enough tanks, or a private citizen is worried about an increasingly burdensome bill, they should reflect on their position and try a different tact to persuade them.

Waffledynamics said:

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The Debt said:

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Waffledynamics said:

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The Debt said:

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Waffledynamics said:

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Multiple things can be true at once:

1. Starlink has been incredibly valuable to Ukraine's efforts to fight off Russia's illegal invasion

2. SpaceX/Musk should not be expected to fund this effort into insolvency. They're not a government with ludicrous amounts of money

3. Musk is acting like a dick. He showed his ass by repeating Russian negotiating talking points, got called out on it, and appears to be throwing a tantrum.

4. Billionaires really need to stop pretending to be quasi-public officials. Nobody elected them.

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#3 is amusing. "Russia wants X" "OMG THATS RUSSIAN PROPAGANDA, LOLOLOL STUPID BILLIONAIRE RICHEST MAN IN THE UNIVERSE IS PARROTING RUSSIAN TALKING POINTS, IM SO SMART AND HES SO DUMB."

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By your logic, Jeff Bezos and Bill Gates are your superiors, and you should listen to and follow everything that they say.

Yes, Musk repeated Russian negotiation points. They want the very parts Musk said they should concede.

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Where the hell did i say they were better? Do they have access to knowledge you and I don't? Absolutely. Do you think they sit around and watch the trash on the infotainment "news" channels? Absolutely not.

The fact that Russia wants lands filled with russians is detestable. Truly sickening. These russians have been treated with absolute respect and love from the loving Ukrainian government we helped install after we removed their backward proRussian leadership.

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How do you keep getting these lies and propaganda points blown apart in just about every one of these threads and keep repeating them?

I don't honestly know what to say anymore. It just gets ignored by Russia sympathizers.

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Because no one actually refutes it.

These 4 provinces are UNDENIABLY filled with ethnic Russians.

Two of these provinces have been in war with Kiev for most of a decade, where ethnic ukrainians UNDENIABLY committed acts of terrorism, torture, and rape targeting ethnic Russians.

Everyone in the world recognizes Victoria Nuland as the primary agent of the 2014 coup.

You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.

Back to the OP, Ukraine's attitude is yet another symptom of reasonable discourse dying in the world. The "silence is violence" mantra. Musk can and should tell them to pound sand over this.

Definitely Not A Cop said:

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Most of Eastern Ukraine is filled with ethnic Russians because of a bunch of people fleeing before, during, and after the collapse. Russia allows almost anyone in Ukraine to basically rubber stamp their way to citizenship. If you lived near the border or have family still there, it's convenient if you have to cross over for whatever reason. Russia then uses this to fact to twist the narrative that they actually want to be Russian.

Russia also has years of placing operatives in the area to stir up trouble.

It would be like Mexico claiming that they are annexing San Antonio because it's demonstrably true that it's filled with ethnic Mexicans. And then claiming that the people living there want it, because of politicians like the Castro brothers.

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This is revisionist nonsense. The pro-Russian party has been winning in these regions prior to the 2014 coup, which is exactly what Elon tweeted:



I would point out that if you look at the "special operation" lands, it matches up with these 2012 lands (minus Odesa in the south, a city which Russia created, and a connecting lands northwest of Kharkiv, likely due to supply lines).



What people need to understand, and for some reason dont, is the importance of the EEZs. Look at the 4 provinces Russia "annexed" (Donetsk, Luhansk, Zaporizhia, Kherson)



Why not the northern lands Russia has a military foothold in? Its about the EEZs. The energy found in the Black Sea and the Azov Sea are vast. With those provinces, Russia would control 80-95% of the EEZs to the south. With these added sources, Russia probably wields a bigger share of world energy than MBS. (I would point out that's exactly why we fought Desert Storm; Iraq was #2 and seizing Kuwait (#3) made him the largest energy supply in the world.)

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1578024735623241734.html

Source KIIS survey 2014

"Do you support the idea, that your region should secede from Ukraine and join Russia? "

Zaporizhia region 17,5% rather no & 64% no
rather yes 4,0% or yes 2,2%

Kherson region 11,1% rather no 73,5% no
rather yes 2,5 or yes 1,0% pic.twitter.com/CJzYFd2Zxe

— Dietmar Pichler 🇪🇺🇺🇦 (@DietmarPichler1) October 6, 2022

"Do you support introduction of Russian troops into Ukraine?" pic.twitter.com/u9gG7EQnJr

— Dietmar Pichler 🇪🇺🇺🇦 (@DietmarPichler1) October 6, 2022

In Donbas there was an area ("DNR/LNR") controlled by RU🇷🇺 proxies. People within these territories and in government controlled areas were asked about their opinion in 2019.

Not even the residents flooded with RU-propaganda and disinfo for years answered in favor of separatism pic.twitter.com/8y0xN848OG

— Dietmar Pichler 🇪🇺🇺🇦 (@DietmarPichler1) October 6, 2022

Conclusion:

In 2014, there were different ideas in Ukraine about the geopolitical orientation, but this does not mean that there was a relevant separatist movement. After the Russian aggression in 2014/2022, Ukrainian identity & pro-European orientation developed significantly.

— Dietmar Pichler 🇪🇺🇺🇦 (@DietmarPichler1) October 6, 2022

Those first two tweets are really cute, asking Donestk and Luhansk if they want join Russia in 2014. That was well before Ukrainians were shelling, raping, and torturing them.

"See they didnt want to join Russia then" yea no shtt, they wanted to be independent. And even those 2014 "polls" only 52/50 percent of respondents In Luhansk and Donetsk were "no, stay with Ukraine." Cherry picking data and ignoring the last decade of hostilities does not corroborate your point. In fact it shows major ignorance.

Rosstafari said:

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Accidentally logged back in under my auxiliary "use in case of ban" account.

Anyway, your reasoning doesn't explain the responses from 2019 from within Russian controlled LNR/DPR. The percentage of respondents still failed to reflect even a simple majority who wished to be part of Russia. Being ethnic Russian or "pro-Russian" have never consistently equated to wanting to be a part of Russia, even post 2014.

In Donbas there was an area ("DNR/LNR") controlled by RU🇷🇺 proxies. People within these territories and in government controlled areas were asked about their opinion in 2019.

Not even the residents flooded with RU-propaganda and disinfo for years answered in favor of separatism pic.twitter.com/8y0xN848OG

— Dietmar Pichler 🇪🇺🇺🇦 (@DietmarPichler1) October 6, 2022

Not to mention the cute red/gray graph. So the areas of the Donbass that were Russian 76% wanted autonomy or to join Russia, only 24% wanted to be in ukraine.

Then the red part of the graph, the Donbass regions that are mainly ukrainian, "oh look, they want to stay with ukraine" But pointy heads on TAs who look at graphs and make snap judgments say "Red is visibly bigger than Gray and represents the mood of the Donbass."

Thats like saying Austin is 74% Blue and the rest of Texas is 58% Red. "74 > 58." Great analysis.

ywia.

The Debt said:

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Those first two tweets are really cute, asking Donestk and Luhansk if they want join Russia in 2014. That was well before Ukrainians were shelling, raping, and torturing them.

"See they didnt want to join Russia then" yea no shtt, they wanted to be independent. And even those 2014 "polls" only 52/50 percent of respondents In Luhansk and Donetsk were "no, stay with Ukraine." Cherry picking data and ignoring the last decade of hostilities does not corroborate your point. In fact it shows major ignorance.

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Ukraine is like the size of Arizona & New Mexico. Give up New Mexico... and Arizona can waller around in the 90BB ~gratis from 81MM*

The Debt said:

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Not to mention the cute red/gray graph. So the areas of the Donbass that were Russian 76% wanted autonomy, or to join Russia, 24% wanted to be in ukraine.

Then the red part of the graph, the Donbass regions that are mainly ukrainian, "oh look, they want to stay with ukraine" But pointy heads on TAs who look at graphs and make snap judgments say "Red is visibly bigger than Gray and represents the mood of the Donbass."

Thats like saying Austin is 74% Blue and the rest of Texas is 58% Red. "74 > 58." Great analysis.

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54% of Russian controlled territory still preferred to remain within Ukraine under some circumstances over joining Russia.

Nothing you're presenting serves as justification for Russian invasion nor annexation. However, at this point, it's inconsequential because Russia is in no position to solidify and retain any gains they attempt to claim, apart from Crimea potentially.

If Russia hadn't gone full ****** and tried to annex Kherson and Zaporizhzhia on top of Luhansk and Donetsk there's a possibility there may have been grounds for compromise but you can't Lay claim to area that you don't even fully control and set annexation of that entire territory (20% of the entire country and most of its industrial, shipping, and agricultural base) as a nonnegotiable starting point and expect cooperation. That's just asking Ukraine to choose starving to death and then being absorbed by Russia when you're too weak to fight back over a fighting chance. They would never accept that unless Russia could compel it militarily.

So, here we are and here we likely remain until someone secures total victory.

Waffledynamics said:

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Furthermore, why do you feel it's a good thing for Russia to control more of the energy market?

Ukraine will win, and Russia will lose. Sorry to break that to you.

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Who said it was good? It's the obvious aim. Just like Russia destroyed the concrete barriers blocking potable water from the Dniper River killing Crimea in the first 3 hrs of the operation. When you pay attention to what they are doing, it has a rationale to it. And it's not the "quest for complete conquest of Ukraine" as the media says.

Bookmarked.