FireAg said:

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Silian Rail said:

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FireAg said:

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Silian Rail said:

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FireAg said:

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Silian Rail said:

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FireAg said:

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Silian Rail said:

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Nothing about Pope St.John Paul's saintliness made him infallible, it just means despite his human fallibility, he achieved the end goal: heaven; where according to the words of exorcists he is a very powerful intercessor.

The church's teaching on human sexuality had been infallible before Theology of the Body, as I said he just presented the teaching in an easily digestible format for the modern reader.

The Church's teachings do not change. Most every other church other than Orthodoxy has changed their beliefs in lockstep with society. It is very hard to accept a belief that "develops organically" when it comes hand in hand with a massive progressive windfall in society.

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You lost me 'exorcists'…

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You don't believe in the Gospel narratives of people driving out Demons in Christ's name?

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I believe they were stories written by men, bud…and men are not infallible, by your own admission…

There's figurative vs literal…and I'm not sure you're able to distinguish between them…

You have been indoctrinated…that's cool…you do you…but it doesn't make you 'right'…

Only God knows for sure who is right and who isn't…not even the Church can truly define this…God is the judge…not you…

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So the Bible is fallible because it was written by Men?

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Yessir…it absolutely is…

It is full of stories and interpretations of events from the past…It is subject to human influences…

The Bible was not written down, by God, and given to man…it was written by men based in their observations and interpretations, and is subject to their own human influences and biases…

That doesn't make it any less important…but as with all things created by man, one must recognize that all men are influenced by bias…only God is free of bias…

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Well shoot man, I thought you were a Christian. One of the few points that Christians of all stripes can agree on are that the Bible is God-breathed and free from error. I would have taken a different track if I had known you were not a believer.

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Wow…umm no…but guess what? You don't get to judge me, and the Bible says as much…

God does…don't worry, partner, I'll be just fine…

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I agree we shouldn't judge, and I won't. I have no idea where your soul will end up. But if we want to define terms, you're more of a Theist than a Christian. The apostles, the men who learned from the apostles and the men following them would not agree with you at all. If we take your stance on the Bible of being fallible and the words of men, you literally have no way of knowing if Jesus ever said not to judge. One of the authors might have tossed that in there on his own.

Daddy-O5 said:

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Silian Rail said:

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Daddy-O5 said:

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Further, you started this conversation saying that God's #1 reason for sexual intercourse between a man and his wife was procreation. If that is true, and as someone else has already pointed out to you, then you are, by definition, a hypocrite for using the calendar method for birth control as you are, by doing so, practicing birth control, and prevent God-given life from being created... Using your own words, your goal every time you wanna "shake the sheets" should be making a baby, and by preventing such events to the best of your ability, you are in violation of what God (supposedly) wants...

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I went into my classes required to marry my Catholic wife with a very open mind, I was actually looking forward to learning about their stance on contraception and NFP.

They lost me when they told me (us) you should only have sex to make babies, but the selling point for NFP was "it's just as effective as any other means of birth control! It will totally make sure your sex doesn't actually result in any babies!".

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Then your class was taught by very poorly formed individuals and I'm sorry

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To be fair I've read through this entire thread, as open minded as possible and no one here has done a better job than they did.

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I think some of your preconceived notions followed you. Silian and I both said the Catholic Church does not encourage using NFP in its teachings. Certainly many catholic people do, but the official stance of the church is use it for a time when another child would be unwise (the Irish twins example) but you are supposed to stay in a disposition of fertility. The church is very clear that using NFP as contraception in perpetuity is a sin as well, unless there is a serious reason (poverty, medical issue, etc).

Now you may not agree with that, which is fine, but hopefully that clears up whatever contradiction you were incorrectly taught.

FireAg said:

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If we really want to be blunt, then let's be blunt...

"Have more kids so we create more followers who practice our traditions so that our way of life might one day rule the world"...

That's the real "blessing" that The Church is trying to create...

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You can think of no other reason why Christians should support large families? Simply world domination. Nothing at all to do with co-creating with God and new souls entering the world.

As a contraceptive culture, we look at kids as for us instead of for God. They've basically become an accessory. I'm only having as many as I want, when I want. I know several very holy people that have gone the vasectomy/contraception route. I'm sure they mean no wrong, but ultimately when we take on this mentality we are telling God how many children were willing to give Him, not letting Him lead us.

Silian Rail said:

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FireAg said:

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Silian Rail said:

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FireAg said:

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Silian Rail said:

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FireAg said:

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Silian Rail said:

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You should see Luther's words on contraception

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I'm aware of them…

But Martin Luther was a man, not God, and as such, he too is not infallible…just like the Pope…

See…God gave me a brain…and I use it to make my own decisions about what I believe to be right vs sinful…

I follow no one blindly…

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Okay, so finally an answer. God doesn't tell you what a sin is, your brain tells you what a sin is and what isn't.

Essentially you've just become a church of one. Where Christ wanted us all to be one as He and God are one, you have done what all the Protestants have done and what the crowd in the Bread of Life discourse in John said "this teaching is hard, who can accept it" and decided to follow your own drum out of ease

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Negative, Ghostrider…

I believe God has given me the capacity, in my brain, to determine what is right and wrong…

God gave me common sense…I don't need a Church or another man to define for me what is good vs evil…

And sexual intercourse with a committed partner for reasons other than procreation, is not evil…

And you believe that too, or you wouldn't practice birth control either (and by fact, you do indeed practice birth control)…

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I don't practice birth control. I wish we had more kids, because we are able to care for more and my kids are the biggest joy in my wife and I's life.

Sex with a partner for reasons other than procreation is not sinful. Using artificial means to ensure that no pregnancy comes from the sex, is.

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And the hard part here is, you're a hypocrite and admitted so much through your preachings on this thread…

You use a schedule to prevent pregnancy…that is artificial and unnatural…

And you used a schedule so as to help prevent unwanted pregnancies…

You can spin it however helps you sleep at night, but that's what you practice…you reduced the risk of pregnancy by following a schedule…

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No I don't. Where have I said I use a schedule? We do not practice NFP at my house. Please show your work

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[/Meaning of Life]