Rapier108 said:

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Snowden is both a hero and a villain.

He was right for exposing the government was spying in American citizens. The only way to prove this beyond the ability of the NSA/CIA/KGI's ability to deny it

He was dead wrong in exposing our means and methods to every bad actor on the planet.was to do this

The former does not excuse the latter.

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It most certainly does.

If you believe the ends justify the means, you may believe Snowden is a hero.

But the ends do not justify the means.

He was a traitor to a government which was already betraying the country. I don't think it's a black and white issue, but I tend to view him more favorably than not.

wbt5845 said:

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If you believe the ends justify the means, you may believe Snowden is a hero.

But the ends do not justify the means.

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Snowden exposing to the American people how big tech, the FBI, CIA, and NSA spy on them justifies what he did.

A federal court rules that what was going on (and perhaps what is still going on) under PRISM was/is illegal according to the Constitution. Without Snowden, we found this information out sooner rather than later.

He deserves a pardon.

96AgGrad said:

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He was a traitor to a government which was already betraying the country. I don't think it's a black and white issue, but I tend to view him more favorably than not.

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The more I have looked into Snowden's situation, the more I think he had no good alternatives. No matter what he did, once he decided he could not remain silent. Crappy situation to be in.

wbt5845 said:

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If you believe the ends justify the means, you may believe Snowden is a hero.

But the ends do not justify the means.

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#GovernMeHarderBigDaddy #IDontDeserveNotToBeSpiedOn

Ags4DaWin said:

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Ummmmmm I thought the conservatives on this bord were supposed to be against the government doing things like that without a warrant.

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For the record ---- I AM. And I think warrants should be given sparingly and requests for them should often be denied. But alas, they are almost always approved by courts/judges, even generally Constitutional ones. Often times, the courts are being deliberately misled by politicized agencies who claim there is a 'clear and present danger'.

aggiehawg said:

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96AgGrad said:

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He was a traitor to a government which was already betraying the country. I don't think it's a black and white issue, but I tend to view him more favorably than not.

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The more I have looked into Snowden's situation, the more I think he had no good alternatives. No matter what he did, once he decided he could not remain silent. Crappy situation to be in.

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THIS ^ is exactly right.

Was he supposed to go to a Senator or a Congressional Rep? And given many of them had signed off on so much of the funding for programs Snowden blew the whistle on..... how was any of this going to be exposed?

The American people had a right to know. Snowden knew this and acted in good conscience, knowing that it may cost him everything.

Keep in mind Trump didn't pardon him either.

waitwhat? said:

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wbt5845 said:

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I listen to a podcast that had a series on him last week. I didn't realize there was a large segment of people who thought of him as a hero.

He is a traitor and criminal.

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Do you think people should be loyal to the government or to the people?

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Ask not what you can do for your country -- ask only what your country can dole out to you.

Ags4DaWin said:

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wbt5845 said:

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I listen to a podcast that had a series on him last week. I didn't realize there was a large segment of people who thought of him as a hero.

He is a traitor and criminal.

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For exposing the fact that the NSA and CIA WERE BREAKING THE LAW BY COLLECTING INFORMATION ON US CITIZENS WITHOUT A WARRANT?!?

Ummmmmm I thought the conservatives on this bord were supposed to be against the government doing things like that without a warrant.

Regardless of what I think of Snowden and I am ambivalent because of what he has done after he exposed that ****, the public needed to know.

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It shouldn't be surprising if the NSA and CIA inadvertently gathered information about US citizens while conducting surveillance operations against other countries. Did they specifically target US citizens who had no suspected foreign connections at all?

wbt5845 said:

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If you believe the ends justify the means, you may believe Snowden is a hero.

But the ends do not justify the means.

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Since you are so confident that Snowden could have exposed the ilegal activity of our spy/assassin agencies without getting killed or smeared or discredited or the information buried and also managed to get the word out via other means....please tell us all how he should have gotten thi information out.

Ags4DaWin said:

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wbt5845 said:

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If you believe the ends justify the means, you may believe Snowden is a hero.

But the ends do not justify the means.

---

Since you are so confident that Snowden could have exposed the ilegal activity of our spy/assassin agencies without getting killed or smeared or discredited or the information buried and also managed to get the word out via other means....please tell us all how he should have gotten thi information out.

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The one in which he doesn't give the Chinese and the Russians the means by which we spied on them.

K2-HMFIC said:

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Ags4DaWin said:

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wbt5845 said:

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If you believe the ends justify the means, you may believe Snowden is a hero.

But the ends do not justify the means.

---

Since you are so confident that Snowden could have exposed the ilegal activity of our spy/assassin agencies without getting killed or smeared or discredited or the information buried and also managed to get the word out via other means....please tell us all how he should have gotten thi information out.

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The one in which he doesn't give the Chinese and the Russians the means by which we spied on them.

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Woah woah woah!!!

Russia is our enemy? The 1980's called Mitt, they want their foreign policy back!

China is our enemy? Why do we continually prop up their economy and share commerce with them? FFS you sound like Trump wanting to shift manufacturing to SE Asian countries. Racist!

TheHulkster said:

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Snowden blew the whistle on unconstitutional, warrantless domestic spying from the NSA. He may or may not have gone about it the wrong way, but he was right to blow the whistle on the criminal enterprise that the feds were running.

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If we had 200 more like him in the FBI / CIA / IRS / DOJ, our country would be a better place.

eric76 said:

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Ags4DaWin said:

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wbt5845 said:

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I listen to a podcast that had a series on him last week. I didn't realize there was a large segment of people who thought of him as a hero.

He is a traitor and criminal.

---

For exposing the fact that the NSA and CIA WERE BREAKING THE LAW BY COLLECTING INFORMATION ON US CITIZENS WITHOUT A WARRANT?!?

Ummmmmm I thought the conservatives on this bord were supposed to be against the government doing things like that without a warrant.

Regardless of what I think of Snowden and I am ambivalent because of what he has done after he exposed that ****, the public needed to know.

---

It shouldn't be surprising if the NSA and CIA inadvertently gathered information about US citizens while conducting surveillance operations against other countries. Did they specifically target US citizens who had no suspected foreign connections at all?

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In a word, Yes.

This is the right answer.

Classified programs have ombudsmen you can take concerns to. When you go through your annual refresher training, you are given details on how to raise the flag on any ethical concerns.

Going to the New York Times is never one of the options.

TheHulkster said:

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Snowden blew the whistle on unconstitutional, warrantless domestic spying from the NSA. He may or may not have gone about it the wrong way, but he was right to blow the whistle on the criminal enterprise that the feds were running.

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Looks like Snowden is one thing many on the right and the left agree on.

The Debt said:

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K2-HMFIC said:

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Ags4DaWin said:

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wbt5845 said:

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If you believe the ends justify the means, you may believe Snowden is a hero.

But the ends do not justify the means.

---

Since you are so confident that Snowden could have exposed the ilegal activity of our spy/assassin agencies without getting killed or smeared or discredited or the information buried and also managed to get the word out via other means....please tell us all how he should have gotten thi information out.

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The one in which he doesn't give the Chinese and the Russians the means by which we spied on them.

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Woah woah woah!!!

Russia is our enemy? The 1980's called Mitt, they want their foreign policy back!

China is our enemy? Why do we continually prop up their economy and share commerce with them? FFS you sound like Trump wanting to shift manufacturing to SE Asian countries. Racist!

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Is that you, Obama?

BusterAg said:

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eric76 said:

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Ags4DaWin said:

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wbt5845 said:

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I listen to a podcast that had a series on him last week. I didn't realize there was a large segment of people who thought of him as a hero.

He is a traitor and criminal.

---

For exposing the fact that the NSA and CIA WERE BREAKING THE LAW BY COLLECTING INFORMATION ON US CITIZENS WITHOUT A WARRANT?!?

Ummmmmm I thought the conservatives on this bord were supposed to be against the government doing things like that without a warrant.

Regardless of what I think of Snowden and I am ambivalent because of what he has done after he exposed that ****, the public needed to know.

---

It shouldn't be surprising if the NSA and CIA inadvertently gathered information about US citizens while conducting surveillance operations against other countries. Did they specifically target US citizens who had no suspected foreign connections at all?

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In a word, Yes.

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Would you care to elaborate?

wbt5845 said:

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If you believe the ends justify the means, you may believe Snowden is a hero.

But the ends do not justify the means.

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Everyone listen to this guy that works for a defense contractor!!!

eric76 said:

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BusterAg said:

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eric76 said:

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Ags4DaWin said:

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wbt5845 said:

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I listen to a podcast that had a series on him last week. I didn't realize there was a large segment of people who thought of him as a hero.

He is a traitor and criminal.

---

For exposing the fact that the NSA and CIA WERE BREAKING THE LAW BY COLLECTING INFORMATION ON US CITIZENS WITHOUT A WARRANT?!?

Ummmmmm I thought the conservatives on this bord were supposed to be against the government doing things like that without a warrant.

Regardless of what I think of Snowden and I am ambivalent because of what he has done after he exposed that ****, the public needed to know.

---

It shouldn't be surprising if the NSA and CIA inadvertently gathered information about US citizens while conducting surveillance operations against other countries. Did they specifically target US citizens who had no suspected foreign connections at all?

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In a word, Yes.

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Would you care to elaborate?

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This is old news...time to catch up.

samurai_science said:

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eric76 said:

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BusterAg said:

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eric76 said:

---

Ags4DaWin said:

---

wbt5845 said:

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I listen to a podcast that had a series on him last week. I didn't realize there was a large segment of people who thought of him as a hero.

He is a traitor and criminal.

---

For exposing the fact that the NSA and CIA WERE BREAKING THE LAW BY COLLECTING INFORMATION ON US CITIZENS WITHOUT A WARRANT?!?

Ummmmmm I thought the conservatives on this bord were supposed to be against the government doing things like that without a warrant.

Regardless of what I think of Snowden and I am ambivalent because of what he has done after he exposed that ****, the public needed to know.

---

It shouldn't be surprising if the NSA and CIA inadvertently gathered information about US citizens while conducting surveillance operations against other countries. Did they specifically target US citizens who had no suspected foreign connections at all?

---

In a word, Yes.

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Would you care to elaborate?

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This is old news...time to catch up.

---

I am very familiar with the fact that it isn't unusual for the intelligence agencies to inadvertently collect information on those who they have no interest in. That has been known for many years -- long before Snowden's treasonous acts.

For example, I think it was in The Puzzle Palace that there was a discussion of taps on every pay phone at most (possibly all) international airports in the US.Sure, they caught plenty of conversations that had no bearing on National Security and those were pretty much ignored. If I remember correctly, when they caught discussions of criminal activity -- for example, drug smuggling -- they would sometimes pass that along to the proper authorities even though that didn't fall within what they were supposed to be doing.

There were rumors in the mid 1980s about there being computer systems that would scan telephone conversation for certain keywords and upon detecting one or more of those keywords, would record the conversation for human analysis.

From what I've read about Snowden, he was upset that regular citizens would be inadvertently caught up in the intelligence gathering, but they weren't specifically targeting those people just to spy on them. If you think about it, the amount of information that they have to go through is so voluminous that they really don't have time to put an effort into spying on US citizens who are minding their own business. Anyone who is dealing with suspected spies or terrorists should be watched, though, even if they had nothing to do with it.

And I am very far from convinced that people give a crap about their privacy the way everyone puts it in public view. That includes not only sites like Facebook, but also TexAgs. Such sites are easy to go through, but it is doubtful that many people would be singled out although some of the talk on here regarding things like seceding and civil war would raise serious red flags.

In addition to that, there is the question of e-mail. We have the capability of making it nearly impossible for anyone to read their e-mail -- start using PGP to communicate with others. Yet, how many people even do that? Hardly anyone.

My view of a great many people is that they are little more than snowflakes who are upset that someone might spy on them but who refuse to make the slightest effort to try to do something about it other than just whine to the government. They just want the government to give them the privacy that they think that they deserve.

If you want privacy, then do something about it. If you can't be bothered to deal with your own privacy, then don't be surprised if I don't take your claims seriously.

Some days I use ROT13 just for old times sake.

wbt5845 said:

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This is the right answer.

Classified programs have ombudsmen you can take concerns to. When you go through your annual refresher training, you are given details on how to raise the flag on any ethical concerns.

Going to the New York Times is never one of the options.

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Spoken like a true deep state fan boy.

Snowden is a hero. The swamp scum are the traitors.

eric76 said:

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Ags4DaWin said:

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wbt5845 said:

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I listen to a podcast that had a series on him last week. I didn't realize there was a large segment of people who thought of him as a hero.

He is a traitor and criminal.

---

For exposing the fact that the NSA and CIA WERE BREAKING THE LAW BY COLLECTING INFORMATION ON US CITIZENS WITHOUT A WARRANT?!?

Ummmmmm I thought the conservatives on this bord were supposed to be against the government doing things like that without a warrant.

Regardless of what I think of Snowden and I am ambivalent because of what he has done after he exposed that ****, the public needed to know.

---

It shouldn't be surprising if the NSA and CIA inadvertently gathered information about US citizens while conducting surveillance operations against other countries. Did they specifically target US citizens who had no suspected foreign connections at all?

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Sadly you and I have also been "inadvertently" collected on....it's a real shame

Then why didn't Trump pardon him?

wbt5845 said:

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Then why didn't Trump pardon him?

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Because he was surrounded by swamp advisors.

eric76 said:

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I am very familiar with the fact that it isn't unusual for the intelligence agencies to inadvertently collect information on those who they have no interest in. That has been known for many years -- long before Snowden's treasonous acts.

For example, I think it was in The Puzzle Palace that there was a discussion of taps on every pay phone at most (possibly all) international airports in the US.Sure, they caught plenty of conversations that had no bearing on National Security and those were pretty much ignored. If I remember correctly, when they caught discussions of criminal activity -- for example, drug smuggling -- they would sometimes pass that along to the proper authorities even though that didn't fall within what they were supposed to be doing.

There were rumors in the mid 1980s about there being computer systems that would scan telephone conversation for certain keywords and upon detecting one or more of those keywords, would record the conversation for human analysis.

From what I've read about Snowden, he was upset that regular citizens would be inadvertently caught up in the intelligence gathering, but they weren't specifically targeting those people just to spy on them. If you think about it, the amount of information that they have to go through is so voluminous that they really don't have time to put an effort into spying on US citizens who are minding their own business. Anyone who is dealing with suspected spies or terrorists should be watched, though, even if they had nothing to do with it.

And I am very far from convinced that people give a crap about their privacy the way everyone puts it in public view. That includes not only sites like Facebook, but also TexAgs. Such sites are easy to go through, but it is doubtful that many people would be singled out although some of the talk on here regarding things like seceding and civil war would raise serious red flags.

In addition to that, there is the question of e-mail. We have the capability of making it nearly impossible for anyone to read their e-mail -- start using PGP to communicate with others. Yet, how many people even do that? Hardly anyone.

My view of a great many people is that they are little more than snowflakes who are upset that someone might spy on them but who refuse to make the slightest effort to try to do something about it other than just whine to the government. They just want the government to give them the privacy that they think that they deserve.

If you want privacy, then do something about it. If you can't be bothered to deal with your own privacy, then don't be surprised if I don't take your claims seriously.

---

Here's the original article: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/06/nsa-phone-records-verizon-court-order

Quote:

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The document shows for the first time that under the Obama administration the communication records of millions of US citizens are being collected indiscriminately and in bulk regardless of whether they are suspected of any wrongdoing.

The secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (Fisa) granted the order to the FBI on April 25, giving the government unlimited authority to obtain the data for a specified three-month period ending on July 19.

Under the terms of the blanket order, the numbers of both parties on a call are handed over, as is location data, call duration, unique identifiers, and the time and duration of all calls. The contents of the conversation itself are not covered.

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That's not inadvertently caught up in communications.

eric76 said:

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BusterAg said:

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eric76 said:

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Ags4DaWin said:

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wbt5845 said:

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I listen to a podcast that had a series on him last week. I didn't realize there was a large segment of people who thought of him as a hero.

He is a traitor and criminal.

---

For exposing the fact that the NSA and CIA WERE BREAKING THE LAW BY COLLECTING INFORMATION ON US CITIZENS WITHOUT A WARRANT?!?

Ummmmmm I thought the conservatives on this bord were supposed to be against the government doing things like that without a warrant.

Regardless of what I think of Snowden and I am ambivalent because of what he has done after he exposed that ****, the public needed to know.

---

It shouldn't be surprising if the NSA and CIA inadvertently gathered information about US citizens while conducting surveillance operations against other countries. Did they specifically target US citizens who had no suspected foreign connections at all?

---

In a word, Yes.

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Would you care to elaborate?

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1) Wanted Verizon to log every single call and text message.
2) Forced most of the major tech companies to install decryption tunnels between individuals sending encrypted messages without disclosing that they were doing that. Gave the NSA direct access to company servers that were supposed to contain private data according to their user agreements.
3) Logs of who you chatted with, which websites you visited, who you called, who you sent text messages to. All of this data was collected and stored indiscriminately.
4) The entity that was approving collection of content of messages that were unknowingly exposed to unencryption was the F'ing FISA court. You will excuse me for not trusting the FISA court any more than the FBI.
5) When congress asked the NSA to reveal to congress under top secret clearance exactly what they were doing, the NSA balked.
6) It forced congress to pass new laws that specifically made a lot of the things the NSA was doing, that they admitted to or not, illegal. This wasn't some dust up. It was a **** storm.
7) Snowden was a whistleblower that was inside of the PRISM program. He knew exactly what was going on. What would be his motivation to lie, and to come out of anonymity to support his claims.

I don't want this nations brownshirts to have access to who I call on my phone every time I dial someone.

Aggie4Life02 said:

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wbt5845 said:

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Then why didn't Trump pardon him?

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Because he was surrounded by swamp advisors.

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"Putin puppet Trump pardons traitor, tonight at 6."

BusterAg said:

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eric76 said:

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BusterAg said:

---

eric76 said:

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Ags4DaWin said:

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wbt5845 said:

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I listen to a podcast that had a series on him last week. I didn't realize there was a large segment of people who thought of him as a hero.

He is a traitor and criminal.

---

For exposing the fact that the NSA and CIA WERE BREAKING THE LAW BY COLLECTING INFORMATION ON US CITIZENS WITHOUT A WARRANT?!?

Ummmmmm I thought the conservatives on this bord were supposed to be against the government doing things like that without a warrant.

Regardless of what I think of Snowden and I am ambivalent because of what he has done after he exposed that ****, the public needed to know.

---

It shouldn't be surprising if the NSA and CIA inadvertently gathered information about US citizens while conducting surveillance operations against other countries. Did they specifically target US citizens who had no suspected foreign connections at all?

---

In a word, Yes.

---

Would you care to elaborate?

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1) Wanted Verizon to log every single call and text message.

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They obviously log every call and message anyway, but I see no justification for the intelligence agencies to get all of the logs.

Quote:

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2) Forced most of the major tech companies to install decryption tunnels between individuals sending encrypted messages without disclosing that they were doing that. Gave the NSA direct access to company servers that were supposed to contain private data according to their user agreements .
3) Logs of who you chatted with, which websites you visited, who you called, who you sent text messages to. All of this data was collected and stored indiscriminately.

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It's hard to imagine having that much space. From what I've read before, they do intercept e-mail leaving or entering the country. That's not very surprising. However, most e-mail is of no interest to them and once that is determined, I've read that they will generally get rid of it to make room for what they do need. If it is encrypted e-mail, I think that they do keep it for a while in case they need to try to break it later. It's not like they can break the encryption on every e-mail on demand.

Quote:

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4) The entity that was approving collection of content of messages that were unknowingly exposed to unencryption was the F'ing FISA court. You will excuse me for not trusting the FISA court any more than the FBI.

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The warrant application would be interesting to read.

Quote:

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5) When congress asked the NSA to reveal to congress under top secret clearance exactly what they were doing, the NSA balked.
6) It forced congress to pass new laws that specifically made a lot of the things the NSA was doing, that they admitted to or not, illegal. This wasn't some dust up. It was a **** storm.
7) Snowden was a whistleblower that was inside of the PRISM program. He knew exactly what was going on. What would be his motivation to lie, and to come out of anonymity to support his claims.

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Keep in mind that the meta data can be incredibly enlightening, but it is not the same as the contents of the call.

There are more secure ways of holding a conversation. Also, ways to limit tracking.

For example, you can remove the sim card from a cell phone and just use it with wifi. Set up an internet number instead. Of course, you will need to find a wifi connection to use it.

wbt5845 said:

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This is the right answer.

Classified programs have ombudsmen you can take concerns to. When you go through your annual refresher training, you are given details on how to raise the flag on any ethical concerns.

Going to the New York Times is never one of the options.

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In what reality would your ombudsmen have had the authority to shut down a spying program, let alone, do so.

Give me a single verifiable example in the past 20 years.

lb3 said:

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wbt5845 said:

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This is the right answer.

Classified programs have ombudsmen you can take concerns to. When you go through your annual refresher training, you are given details on how to raise the flag on any ethical concerns.

Going to the New York Times is never one of the options.

---

In what reality would your ombudsmen have had the authority to shut down a spying program, let alone, do so.

Give me a single verifiable example in the past 20 years.

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Then why didn't Trump parson him?