MouthBQ98 said:

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5.56 worked fine before practically every decent army could afford body armor and widespread use of optics opened up the engagement range.

I can see why they want to go back to something bigger with more punch at a distance.

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Add it this that the war college put out a report a while back that the average combat engagement in Afgahistan was at an estimated range of 800 yards. This new platform seems to make returning accurate fire at the that range feasible.

Everything you need to know. NGSW[url=https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/heres-everything-we-now-know-about-the-armys-new-squad-rifles][/url]

This is dumb and false.
You shoot to neutralize the threat. Shooting to wound makes no sense strategically.
2 main flaws.
1. You assume a wounded soldier can not fight back. There are plenty of Purple Heart and Medal of Honor winners who would assure you that you can fight wounded. This would not necessarily take the soldier out of the fight.
2. It assumes the enemy would stop everything to try and carry their comrade off the battle field. That flat makes no sense. Even in the US military you don't just drop everything, leave cover, and try to grab someone as soon as they are hit.

This is probably a rumor that's started from people who didn't like the power of the 5.56, but there are a lot of kills that say it does just fine.

If the battle has evolved to need more armor penetration ability/shoot further/be more adaptable, fine. But the 5.56 is plenty lethal and was certainly not designed to just wound.

74OA said:

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Everything you need to know. NGSW[url=https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/heres-everything-we-now-know-about-the-armys-new-squad-rifles][/url]

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I think that the most important piece of information from that article is that the civie version doesn't come out till next year. So that gives us roughly 365 days to come up with a reason to tell the wives why we need one.

Tom Kazansky 2012 said:

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10thYrSr said:

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flakrat said:

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Over 1 million tons already delivered by SIG
https://soldiersystems.net/2021/01/27/sig-ammunition-produced-rounds-of-6-8x51mm/

Here's the new SIG 6.8 x 51 hybrid round next to the current 5.56, 23% weight reduction

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How is this better than the mosin nagant 7.62x54 round? I don't think it is.

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US military doesn't shoot to kill, we shoot to maim and make bleed out.

Theory is that if we hit a guy it take three enemies out of commission to get the enemy wounded out of harms way. Plus the screaming maimed soldier hurts morale and focus of the enemy.

This was back when the US Army was actually interested in winning battles and not providing sex changes. Got NATO to go along with it as well.

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I think a slightly more accurate explanation is that small arms aren't what wins battles. Artillery, air, and armor wins battles. Lighter rounds allow soldiers to carry more and fix the enemy in place to destroy them with the previously mentioned assets. Also yes a wounded soldier is as useful or better than a dead one.

LOL. And I still want it !!!

Coog97 said:

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The optic / weather station / karaoke machine is the size of a Smart Car.

Still want.

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I like it because now my Soldiers only have the chance of losing one sensitive item as as opposed to multiple items and hands across america

MarathonAg12 said:

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Coog97 said:

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The optic / weather station / karaoke machine is the size of a Smart Car.

Still want.

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I like it because now my Soldiers only have the chance of losing one sensitive item as as opposed to multiple items and hands across america

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I've asked this before and don't know for sure but...surely the suppressor comes off easily via some sort of QD, right? I fully expect those NFA items to lead to a crap ton of lockdowns.

nortex97 said:

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MarathonAg12 said:

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Coog97 said:

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The optic / weather station / karaoke machine is the size of a Smart Car.

Still want.

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I like it because now my Soldiers only have the chance of losing one sensitive item as as opposed to multiple items and hands across america

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I've asked this before and don't know for sure but...surely the suppressor comes off easily via some sort of QD, right? I fully expect those NFA items to lead to a crap ton of lockdowns.

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Well we can just tie those suppressors down with 550 cord too

More on the optic.

I wonder what this will do to the civilian demand for ARs in .556.

Any idea as to when this weapon (the civilian vers
ton) will be available for citizen to purchase?

I don't see any real change in the next 20 years. Civilian use of AR's won't be impacted by this (potential) gradual transition, and if at that point the round is in mass production for the military, it will also be pretty cheap (meaning: the little piece of steel at the end of the brass case won't add much more than 10 percent vs. a 5.56 round to produce/sell). The True Velocity kind of stuff would have been more disruptive, I believe (and still could be, ultimately).

The round would then be adapted/used in other platforms, and the initial patents/exclusivity given to Sig would expire for much of it (17 or 20 year timeframes).

Really though, the 300AAC is a pertinent correlary. For home protection/defense (among other uses/applications), it is in many respects superior, if pricier today, over the past 5 or 10 years. But, it has…less than 10 percent I think of civilian sales compared to 223/5.56.

Ubiquity is a virtue/value all to itself. The market will shift of course if…having a 'cool military-looking AR at a high dollar value' loses it's chic to a certain crowd, but that is not…the bulk of AR sales.

nortex97 said:

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I have heard that several times over the years as well, though I don't remember it from basic training in 1992. The thing is, I am not sure if it is really a myth or not.

In fact, the Remington 223...5.56 etc. history don't seem to have had that as an objective, and it never made sense to me as...certainly within a few hundred yards, if hitting center mass it is plenty lethal.

Ranges for infantry combat in Vietnam were, ultimately I guess, well within 300 yards, but I guess after Afghanistan etc., with modern body armor/optics/opponents (like the Chinese) in mind, more lethality out further is important today.

I was never instructed to shoot to injure, and am unaware of any actual manuals/doctrine as such, either. If there are 10 bad guys shooting at x-number of good guys, do we really want troops engaging with an idea to 'let's just injure a couple so they have to haul them away?' It just doesn't make sense, imho.

Without doubt, the 6.8 decision (which the army made in advance of the contractors making/putting up their designs competitively), has greater lethality at range as a criteria/key factor.

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Yeah I'm with ya I'm just relaying what they told me in basic and what I've also heard from buds.

US Army definitely isn't point blank instructing people to shoot to maim.

nortex97 said:

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Ubiquity is a virtue/value all to itself.

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All of my firearms are common calibers/gauges for that very reason. The only exceptions are two rifles I was given/inherited.

Rapier108 said:

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Quote:

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WASHINGTON The U.S. Army announced the award of a 10-year firm-fixed-price follow-on production contract to Sig Sauer, Inc for the manufacture and delivery of two Next Generation Squad Weapon variations (the XM5 Rifle and the XM250 Automatic Rifle) and the 6.8 Common Cartridge Family of Ammunition.

This award was made following a rigorous 27-month prototyping and evaluation effort that included numerous technical tests and Soldier touch points of three competing prototype systems.

The value of the initial delivery order on the contract is $20.4 million for weapons and ammunition that will undergo testing. The contract includes accessories, spares and contractor support. It also provides the other Department of Defense services and, potentially, Foreign Military Sales countries the opportunity to purchase the NGSW weapons.

The XM5 Rifle will replace the M4/M4A1 carbine within the close combat force, and the XM250 Automatic Rifle is the planned replacement for the M249 Squad Automatic Weapon

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https://www.army.mil/article/255827/army_awards_next_generation_squad_weapon_contract

Finally going to be upgrading from the .223/5.56 to something with a little more punch. Guess at least one lesson was learned and adopted from the 20 years in the desert.

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How does one get the one on the left? Friend of a friend request....

https://www.sigsauer.com/mcx-spear.html

Bargain price of $8000 at "select dealers"

flakrat said:

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Over 1 million rounds already delivered by SIG
https://soldiersystems.net/2021/01/27/sig-ammunition-produced-rounds-of-6-8x51mm/

Here's the new SIG 6.8 x 51 hybrid round next to the current 5.56, 23% weight reduction

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That's not a 5.56 on the left. The 6.8x51 brass is the same size as .308 and is noticeably larger than 5.56.

GAC06 said:

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https://www.sigsauer.com/mcx-spear.html

Bargain price of $8000 at "select dealers"

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8 grand and you don't even get the cool optic???

WestTexAg12 said:

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Can't wait for the Marine Corps to have all the Army leftovers in 3 years!

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Maybe the Marines will take the Airforce's A10's when they are stupidly forced to retire them!

GAC06 said:

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flakrat said:

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Over 1 million rounds already delivered by SIG
https://soldiersystems.net/2021/01/27/sig-ammunition-produced-rounds-of-6-8x51mm/

Here's the new SIG 6.8 x 51 hybrid round next to the current 5.56, 23% weight reduction

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That's not a 5.56 on the left. The 6.8x51 brass is the same size as .308 and is noticeably larger than 5.56.

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That is a 270 WSM on the left if I interpret the article correctly.