techno-ag said:

---

Agreed. Anytime a normal vehicle catches on fire it's posted here.

---

We are down on reported car fires.
https://www.wfsb.com/2024/05/30/state-police-investigate-suspicious-deaths-oxford/

https://www.dynamitenews.com/story/uttar-pradesh-four-people-killed-in-meerut-as-their-car-catches-fire

GAC06 said:

---

Weird leap there. No one is saying there aren't drawbacks or risks. In this case, all cars are potentially vulnerable to hacking. Actually the traditional car makers are apparently more vulnerable.

---

Did you not fully read my comments?

How many Teslas are getting stolen? Lots of other manufacturers are getting their cars stolen with ease. Does that count as "hacked"?

Chi-com sales keep declining.

In before "But sales growth is up!"

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/teslas-china-made-ev-sales-fall-66-yy-may-2024-06-04/

Not a fan of cabin radar either. It's bad enough to be riding around in an electromagnetic field. Now you got cabin radar on you.

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-cabin-radar-ditch-seat-sensors-safety/amp/

This guy got higher EMF driving in a gas vehicle than in an EV except when charging the car. Most charging is done at home and I doubt many sit in their cars then.



PS. I would think EV levels would likely be similar for EVs and ICE given the main sources would be things like blue tooth, WiFi, and all of the other regular electric devices in a car.

GAC06 said:

---

How many Teslas are getting stolen? Lots of other manufacturers are getting their cars stolen with ease. Does that count as "hacked"?

---

I was referring more to the hacking that could affect the performance of the cars, but yes, that hacking is also a thing. Can happen to Teslas, too.

Teslas can still be stolen with a cheap radio hack

The OTA part is what makes them vulnerable.

When that OTA breach allows access to the PCM (or whatever Tesla calls it), that allows control of the vehicle. That can be segregated, but not if changes to the PCM need to be done OTA.

That last part is not something that many (if any) non EV manufacturers do, currently.

Ag with Kids knows stuff.

Ag with kids said:

---

GAC06 said:

---

How many Teslas are getting stolen? Lots of other manufacturers are getting their cars stolen with ease. Does that count as "hacked"?

---

I was referring more to the hacking that could affect the performance of the cars, but yes, that hacking is also a thing. Can happen to Teslas, too.

Teslas can still be stolen with a cheap radio hack

The OTA part is what makes them vulnerable.

When that OTA breach allows access to the PCM (or whatever Tesla calls it), that allows control of the vehicle. That can be segregated, but not if changes to the PCM need to be done OTA.

That last part is not something that many (if any) non EV manufacturers do, currently.

---

Ford does OTA now
https://corporate.ford.com/articles/products/over-the-air-software-updates.html#:~:text=Over%2Dthe%2DAir%20Software%20Updates

Others include GMC, GM, Toyota, etc.. and I think all include updates that are beyond the infotainment system.

Ag with kids said:

---

GAC06 said:

---

How many Teslas are getting stolen? Lots of other manufacturers are getting their cars stolen with ease. Does that count as "hacked"?

---

I was referring more to the hacking that could affect the performance of the cars, but yes, that hacking is also a thing. Can happen to Teslas, too.

Teslas can still be stolen with a cheap radio hack

The OTA part is what makes them vulnerable.

When that OTA breach allows access to the PCM (or whatever Tesla calls it), that allows control of the vehicle. That can be segregated, but not if changes to the PCM need to be done OTA.

That last part is not something that many (if any) non EV manufacturers do, currently.

---

Yet Teslas aren't getting stolen.

https://electrek.co/2023/10/23/tesla-tops-list-least-stolen-vehicles-standard-gps-tracking/#:~:text=The%20Tesla%20Model%203%20electric,all%2D%20passenger%2Dvehicle%20average.

If they were getting stolen with the ease that Silverados and F-150's were, this thread would be giving us daily updates on the theft epidemic.

Kansas Kid said:

---

Ag with kids said:

---

GAC06 said:

---

How many Teslas are getting stolen? Lots of other manufacturers are getting their cars stolen with ease. Does that count as "hacked"?

---

I was referring more to the hacking that could affect the performance of the cars, but yes, that hacking is also a thing. Can happen to Teslas, too.

Teslas can still be stolen with a cheap radio hack

The OTA part is what makes them vulnerable.

When that OTA breach allows access to the PCM (or whatever Tesla calls it), that allows control of the vehicle. That can be segregated, but not if changes to the PCM need to be done OTA.

That last part is not something that many (if any) non EV manufacturers do, currently.

---

Ford does OTA now
https://corporate.ford.com/articles/products/over-the-air-software-updates.html#:~:text=Over%2Dthe%2DAir%20Software%20Updates

Others include GMC, GM, Toyota, etc.. and I think all include updates that are beyond the infotainment system.

---

Depends one what functionality they're updating. That article didn't detail and sounded like it was more infotainment related.

Hope they keep that segregated.

GAC06 said:

---

Ag with kids said:

---

GAC06 said:

---

How many Teslas are getting stolen? Lots of other manufacturers are getting their cars stolen with ease. Does that count as "hacked"?

---

I was referring more to the hacking that could affect the performance of the cars, but yes, that hacking is also a thing. Can happen to Teslas, too.

Teslas can still be stolen with a cheap radio hack

The OTA part is what makes them vulnerable.

When that OTA breach allows access to the PCM (or whatever Tesla calls it), that allows control of the vehicle. That can be segregated, but not if changes to the PCM need to be done OTA.

That last part is not something that many (if any) non EV manufacturers do, currently.

---

Yet Teslas aren't getting stolen.

https://electrek.co/2023/10/23/tesla-tops-list-least-stolen-vehicles-standard-gps-tracking/#:~:text=The%20Tesla%20Model%203%20electric,all%2D%20passenger%2Dvehicle%20average.

If they were getting stolen with the ease that Silverados and F-150's were, this thread would be giving us daily updates on the theft epidemic.

---

Well, let me see...how many Teslas and how many Silverados/F-150s are on the road? Target rich environment for the trucks...not so much for the Teslas.

You also have to look at desireability. Teslas are probably lower on that scale. Maybe thieves don't WANT to steal them.

But, As your article points out, they ARE being stolen in Europe...

That passive entry OTA method of hacking the key fob is used on lots of vehicles, though.

Look, my point about OTA being a point of vulnerability again...

You may be right but when I read this, it makes me think the updates are for more than Infotainment. I share your concerns about hacking but that said, they still are nothing compared to my concerns about drunk, distracted, and flat out crappy driving that kills and injures people everyday

"Ford quickly becomes a leader in launching bumper-to-bumper OTAs for nearly all vehicle computer modules, including in conventional gas-engine vehicles."

Kansas Kid said:

---

You may be right but when I read this, it makes me think the updates are for more than Infotainment. I share your concerns about hacking but that said, they still are nothing compared to my concerns about drunk, distracted, and flat out crappy driving that kills and injures people everyday

Ford quickly becomes a leader in launching bumper-to-bumper OTAs for nearly all vehicle computer modules, including in conventional gas-engine vehicles.

---

Well, disabling phones while driving could solve some of that...won't happen though.

And I'd like to tell you there's an OTA fix to get rid of the drunk, distracted, and crappy drivers, but, sadly...there isn't.

Perfect upgrade

I know math is hard for you but when they do the report, it is done on a frequency basis and not absolute number of vehicles stolen. Otherwise, the Dodge Charger wouldn't top the list because there are way less of those on the road than Teslas and the various pickup trucks.

https://www.carpro.com/blog/the-most-and-least-stolen-vehicles-in-america?hs_amp=true

Like you said earlier, people like their modern conveniences so disabling phones won't ever happen. The reason I am optimistic and eager for more autonomy is the computers are better drivers than the drunks, distracted and horrible drivers. Unfortunately, people only want to look at (and sue) accidents caused when the systems are engaged and not how often do they happen when the system is engaged vs relying on human drivers.

It is back to the idea that almost everyone likes to think they are above average/great drivers when the truth is a lot different.

Ag with kids said:

---

GAC06 said:

---

Ag with kids said:

---

GAC06 said:

---

How many Teslas are getting stolen? Lots of other manufacturers are getting their cars stolen with ease. Does that count as "hacked"?

---

I was referring more to the hacking that could affect the performance of the cars, but yes, that hacking is also a thing. Can happen to Teslas, too.

Teslas can still be stolen with a cheap radio hack

The OTA part is what makes them vulnerable.

When that OTA breach allows access to the PCM (or whatever Tesla calls it), that allows control of the vehicle. That can be segregated, but not if changes to the PCM need to be done OTA.

That last part is not something that many (if any) non EV manufacturers do, currently.

---

Yet Teslas aren't getting stolen.

https://electrek.co/2023/10/23/tesla-tops-list-least-stolen-vehicles-standard-gps-tracking/#:~:text=The%20Tesla%20Model%203%20electric,all%2D%20passenger%2Dvehicle%20average.

If they were getting stolen with the ease that Silverados and F-150's were, this thread would be giving us daily updates on the theft epidemic.

---

Well, let me see...how many Teslas and how many Silverados/F-150s are on the road? Target rich environment for the trucks...not so much for the Teslas.

You also have to look at desireability. Teslas are probably lower on that scale. Maybe thieves don't WANT to steal them.

But, As your article points out, they ARE being stolen in Europe...

That passive entry OTA method of hacking the key fob is used on lots of vehicles, though.

Look, my point about OTA being a point of vulnerability again...

---

IIHS took that into account. It's not total numbers, which was apparent if you spent 20 seconds reading instead of typing a nonsense rebuttal.

"The Tesla Model 3 electric four-door 4WD, a midsize luxury car, and the Tesla Model Y electric four-door 4WD, a midsize luxury SUV, had the low- est relative whole vehicle theft claim frequencies at just 3 percent of the all- passenger-vehicle average."

Kansas Kid said:

---

I know math is hard for you but when they do the report, it is done on a frequency basis and not absolute number of vehicles stolen. Otherwise, the Dodge Charger wouldn't top the list because there are way less of those on the road than Teslas and the various pickup trucks.

https://www.carpro.com/blog/the-most-and-least-stolen-vehicles-in-america?hs_amp=true

---

Ah. Missed that. (Although population size can still affect the frequency for the thefts)

BTW, thank you for not being a complete jerk with your comment. It lets me know more about you...

My other point of desireability stands, though.

Number one is the Charger Hellcat. Desirable car.

Model 3. Meh...

GAC06 said:

---

Ag with kids said:

---

GAC06 said:

---

Ag with kids said:

---

GAC06 said:

---

How many Teslas are getting stolen? Lots of other manufacturers are getting their cars stolen with ease. Does that count as "hacked"?

---

I was referring more to the hacking that could affect the performance of the cars, but yes, that hacking is also a thing. Can happen to Teslas, too.

Teslas can still be stolen with a cheap radio hack

The OTA part is what makes them vulnerable.

When that OTA breach allows access to the PCM (or whatever Tesla calls it), that allows control of the vehicle. That can be segregated, but not if changes to the PCM need to be done OTA.

That last part is not something that many (if any) non EV manufacturers do, currently.

---

Yet Teslas aren't getting stolen.

https://electrek.co/2023/10/23/tesla-tops-list-least-stolen-vehicles-standard-gps-tracking/#:~:text=The%20Tesla%20Model%203%20electric,all%2D%20passenger%2Dvehicle%20average.

If they were getting stolen with the ease that Silverados and F-150's were, this thread would be giving us daily updates on the theft epidemic.

---

Well, let me see...how many Teslas and how many Silverados/F-150s are on the road? Target rich environment for the trucks...not so much for the Teslas.

You also have to look at desireability. Teslas are probably lower on that scale. Maybe thieves don't WANT to steal them.

But, As your article points out, they ARE being stolen in Europe...

That passive entry OTA method of hacking the key fob is used on lots of vehicles, though.

Look, my point about OTA being a point of vulnerability again...

---

IIHS took that into account. It's not total numbers, which was apparent if you spent 20 seconds reading instead of typing a nonsense rebuttal.

"The Tesla Model 3 electric four-door 4WD, a midsize luxury car, and the Tesla Model Y electric four-door 4WD, a midsize luxury SUV, had the low- est relative whole vehicle theft claim frequencies at just 3 percent of the all- passenger-vehicle average."

---

Why didn't they just say "These are the least liked vehicles"?

Because that would be a stupid thing to say. I guess Kia's are really desirable since they're stolen so much.

There's this YouTube channel called Wham Bam Tesla Cam or some such. Their first cyber truck submissions are in. Wowzers had no idea people responded with so much hate and vitriol toward Teslas. Another reason not to buy one, IMO. Also, repairs listed for the accidents shone are outrageous.

Foreverconservative said:

---

Perfect upgrade

---

The dude on the right has three hands.

Ford's OTA system is connected to more than just the infotainment system. It sends vehicle and driving data back to Ford for their use (and to sell driving data to a third party).

I had to have a little fun with the math is hard part. Obviously with your comments on hacking systems you had a fair amount of math.

One is in his pocket so we know that one is real and why he was smiling so much.

GAC06 said:

---

Because that would be a stupid thing to say. I guess Kia's are really desirable since they're stolen so much.

---

Apparently more desirable than Teslas...

Now...think about that.

Kansas Kid said:

---

I know math is hard for you but when they do the report, it is done on a frequency basis and not absolute number of vehicles stolen. Otherwise, the Dodge Charger wouldn't top the list because there are way less of those on the road than Teslas and the various pickup trucks.

https://www.carpro.com/blog/the-most-and-least-stolen-vehicles-in-america?hs_amp=true

---

Maybe there aren't a lot of gay thieves.

Then why do people call them butt pirates? Answer me that.

hph6203 said:

---

Then why do people call them butt pirates? Answer me that.

---

Because they say "Aaaarrrrgghhh!" at certain times, IYKWIM. Car theft gets in the way of that.

hph6203 said:

---

Then why do people call them butt pirates? Answer me that.

---

Oh...the butt pirates DO like the Teslas.

Because they look like ass.

Ag with kids said:

---

GAC06 said:

---

Because that would be a stupid thing to say. I guess Kia's are really desirable since they're stolen so much.

---

Apparently more desirable than Teslas...

Now...think about that.

---

Or maybe Kia's have been well proven to be easy to steal.

"According to The Wall Street Journal, these models are easier to steal because they use traditional keys, and the cars don't have a chip that would prevent the vehicles from starting when there's no key in the car."
https://www.businessinsider.com/glitch-in-hyundais-and-kias-makes-them-easy-to-steal-2022-9

Kansas Kid said:

---

Ag with kids said:

---

GAC06 said:

---

Because that would be a stupid thing to say. I guess Kia's are really desirable since they're stolen so much.

---

Apparently more desirable than Teslas...

Now...think about that.

---

Or maybe Kia's have been well proven to be easy to steal.

"According to The Wall Street Journal, these models are easier to steal because they use traditional keys, and the cars don't have a chip that would prevent the vehicles from starting when there's no key in the car."
https://www.businessinsider.com/glitch-in-hyundais-and-kias-makes-them-easy-to-steal-2022-9

---

I'm sure things like that are certainly part of it.

And they're more desirable.

But, this entire convo has strayed completely away from my point that OTA updates that can access the PCM (or whatever Tesla calls it) are not good.

The only desire to steal a Kia is to sell it to another criminal for $100 so they can use it for a drive by or another crime. Then the stealer/seller goes to spend the $100 on clothes and shoes

The conversation strayed from the possibility that OTA updates could be hacked (but haven't) and that in the real world right now, Teslas are difficult to steal whereas lots of popular ICE vehicles are getting stolen like crazy. But for some reason you want to focus on a theoretical problem rather than what's a major problem right now for traditional automakers.