I didn't say that, though. I said it's the government that makes us hate it. Not EV drivers. Yet we breathe down each others throats over it. Which is what always happens due to government

beerad12man said:

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I didn't say that, though. I said it's the government that makes us hate it. Not EV drivers. Yet we breathe down each others throats over it. Which is what always happens due to government

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I think your head is in the right place but this thread also has a lot of shear ignorance regarding EV's and how they actually do work for a lot of people. Pretty much everyone on this thread hates the government influence.

Teslag said:

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beerad12man said:

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I didn't say that, though. I said it's the government that makes us hate it. Not EV drivers. Yet we breathe down each others throats over it. Which is what always happens due to government

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I think your head is in the right place but this thread also has a lot of shear ignorance regarding EV's and how they actually do work for a lot of people. Pretty much everyone on this thread hates the government influence.

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You (and many others) have happily bragged about your tax credits (state and federal), though, while exclaiming your privileged 'luxury product' standards. That entirely obviates your claim to 'hating the government influence.' And you've collectively steadily/continually ignored China's political role in the push, including Tesla's now-tenuous relationship with the CCP/Chinese market.

That an electric vehicle can transport someone semi-reliably for a 20-30 mile commute daily ignores the basic political arguments against these vehicles being widely/substantially adopted en masse, which is essentially the purpose of the OP/thread, imho.

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You (and many others) have happily bragged about your tax credits (state and federal), though,

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For someone that hates when people put words in your mouth you sure do it to others a lot. I bought my Tesla in 2022, when they didn't qualify for tax credits.

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ignores the basic political arguments against these vehicles being widely/substantially adopted en masse

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Walk into a walmart and see people shop and then see what they buy off Temu and Amazon. Most Americans don't give a **** about buying Chinese goods.

I would love to see all the posts bragging about the tax credits received since you claim that many on here including Teslag have made those statements.

beerad12man said:

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I didn't say that, though. I said it's the government that makes us hate it. Not EV drivers. Yet we breathe down each others throats over it. Which is what always happens due to government

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The ignorance of the EV drivers who don't realize the substantial subsidies given to their luxury automobiles while crippling the affordable car market does irk me though.

So I personally dislike both government (California especially) and many EV drivers. If people rejected the initiative to buy EVs at all that would kill the mandates.

It is in many ways no different then people bragging about how great their Nike's are that are made by children in sweat shops which make them affordable. Meanwhile saying why do American shoe companies not just realize they need to compete better.

texagbeliever said:

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beerad12man said:

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I didn't say that, though. I said it's the government that makes us hate it. Not EV drivers. Yet we breathe down each others throats over it. Which is what always happens due to government

---

The ignorance of the EV drivers who don't realize the substantial subsidies given to their luxury automobiles while crippling the affordable car market does irk me though.

So I personally dislike both government (California especially) and many EV drivers. If people rejected the initiative to buy EVs at all that would kill the mandates.

---

I am curious if you and others have the same issue with all the subsidies thrown into home ownership at the cost of apartments. Those subsidies include 1) lower property tax rates, 2) mortgage interest deductions, 3) property tax deductions, 4) lower interest rates because of government programs like FHA and government support of mortgages, 5) no capital gains tax on the sale of a home, etc. Homes also require a lot more electricity than apartments so if you are worried about the grid (I'm not), you should also oppose new home construction.

If you have issues with EV drivers because they buy a car impacted by government policy, you should have a similar issue with home buyers as well. Funny how I don't see any Texags topics on this massive government handout. I for one would get rid of the housing subsidies as well as the EV ones.

Kansas Kid said:

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texagbeliever said:

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beerad12man said:

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I didn't say that, though. I said it's the government that makes us hate it. Not EV drivers. Yet we breathe down each others throats over it. Which is what always happens due to government

---

The ignorance of the EV drivers who don't realize the substantial subsidies given to their luxury automobiles while crippling the affordable car market does irk me though.

So I personally dislike both government (California especially) and many EV drivers. If people rejected the initiative to buy EVs at all that would kill the mandates.

---

I am curious if you and others have the same issue with all the subsidies thrown into home ownership at the cost of apartments. Those subsidies include 1) lower property tax rates, 2) mortgage interest deductions, 3) property tax deductions, 4) lower interest rates because of government programs like FHA and government support of mortgages, 5) no capital gains tax on the sale of a home, etc. Homes also require a lot more electricity than apartments so if you are worried about the grid (I'm not), you should also oppose new home construction.

If you have issues with EV drivers because they buy a car impacted by government policy, you should have a similar issue with home buyers as well. Funny how I don't see any Texags topics on this massive government handout. I for one would get rid of the housing subsidies as well as the EV ones.

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No I don't think those are a contradiction. I also think your arguments are flawed:
1. Apartments will have lower property tax because of their efficiency of the space they occupy. So in a way you could argue that people in apartments actually create a higher burden on people who own a home because they are not paying their proportional cost of property taxes for the resources they consume.
2. Okay. Not a big needle mover.
3. Okay. Not a big needle mover
4. Not a big fan of those. Though Subsidized housing is also prevalent in the apartment space as well.
5. Why would you pay capital gains tax on the sale of a home? Unless you are a corporation looking to invest.

So to sum it up your comparison doesn't work.

Quote:

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The ignorance of the EV drivers who don't realize the substantial subsidies given to their luxury automobiles while crippling the affordable car market does irk me though.

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Teslas receiving the current tax credit are at or below the national new car average price. What makes them luxury automobiles?

texagbeliever said:

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Kansas Kid said:

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texagbeliever said:

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beerad12man said:

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I didn't say that, though. I said it's the government that makes us hate it. Not EV drivers. Yet we breathe down each others throats over it. Which is what always happens due to government

---

The ignorance of the EV drivers who don't realize the substantial subsidies given to their luxury automobiles while crippling the affordable car market does irk me though.

So I personally dislike both government (California especially) and many EV drivers. If people rejected the initiative to buy EVs at all that would kill the mandates.

---

I am curious if you and others have the same issue with all the subsidies thrown into home ownership at the cost of apartments. Those subsidies include 1) lower property tax rates, 2) mortgage interest deductions, 3) property tax deductions, 4) lower interest rates because of government programs like FHA and government support of mortgages, 5) no capital gains tax on the sale of a home, etc. Homes also require a lot more electricity than apartments so if you are worried about the grid (I'm not), you should also oppose new home construction.

If you have issues with EV drivers because they buy a car impacted by government policy, you should have a similar issue with home buyers as well. Funny how I don't see any Texags topics on this massive government handout. I for one would get rid of the housing subsidies as well as the EV ones.

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No I don't think those are a contradiction. I also think your arguments are flawed:
1. Apartments will have lower property tax because of their efficiency of the space they occupy. So in a way you could argue that people in apartments actually create a higher burden on people who own a home because they are not paying their proportional cost of property taxes for the resources they consume.
2. Okay. Not a big needle mover.
3. Okay. Not a big needle mover
4. Not a big fan of those. Though Subsidized housing is also prevalent in the apartment space as well.
5. Why would you pay capital gains tax on the sale of a home? Unless you are a corporation looking to invest.

So to sum it up your comparison doesn't work.

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1). The tax rate is higher in almost all jurisdictions so if the value of a home is the same as an apartment, you pay less on the home. Saying someone with a $1mm home pays more than apartment owner is comparing apples and oranges. Apartments are rarely worth 1mm
2) The mortgage interest deduction is more per year for many people than the one time tax credit for buying an EV especially because many no longer qualify. For a $400k loan at 7 % (today's rate), the write off starts at $28k which is worth almost $8k in lower taxes for someone in the 28% tax bracket. If you think this isn't a big needle mover, then why do you think EV subsidies are? The total for this issue is estimated at $60-70B per year to the US treasury and additional amounts to states with income taxes.
3) Assuming SALT deduction limit isn't renewed, the value of a property tax write off for someone in Texas will also be more annually than the one time credit is worth and similar to the above mortgage write off. With Salt caps, it is lower.
5) Name another asset that capital gains aren't paid when the asset is sold? Apartment complex owners most certainly have to pay them.

So to sum it up, you are right, my comparison doesn't work because the total amount for homeowners dwarfs EV subsidies. They all need to die.

This was not a reference to you but to this statement by someone who said going to gas stations was something he looked forward to.

"I love stopping at gas stations.

I leave my house at least once a day to drive down to the local gas station with my dogs to grab an energy drink, a pack of chicken nuggets for the dogs, top off my tank of needed, and shoot the **** with the the workers to see what's new.

Why would you not want to go to the gas station?"

What most don't understand is the current EV credits were done by Biden to make sure the Big 3 survives because they otherwise are not competitive. It was a bone thrown at the UAW to keep them afloat. Which essentially props up the ICE business which is how the legacy makes money.

So what the credits really do is to prop up the ICE business and help them transition.

Medaggie said:

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This was not a reference to you but to this statement by someone who said going to gas stations was something he looked forward to.

"I love stopping at gas stations.

I leave my house at least once a day to drive down to the local gas station with my dogs to grab an energy drink, a pack of chicken nuggets for the dogs, top off my tank of needed, and shoot the **** with the the workers to see what's new.

Why would you not want to go to the gas station?"

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Well from the quote that sounds like a major extrovert that likes the fact he has gotten to know people there. He would be foolish to project such joy from going to the gas station to other people as most don't transact in the way he does. I don't think randomly picking posters to create this great "whiplash" is a fair assessment of the arguments being laid out.

Quote:

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I don't think randomly picking posters to create this great "whiplash" is a fair assessment of the arguments being laid out.

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Doesn't that work both ways? You just had another poster on this page accuse some of us of taking tax credits when we did not.

If you read this thread, its full of whiplash statements from people who never owned an EV but can be authorities on it. What I have read is most people who are Pro EV esp TSLA do it because they are better alternatives than ICE.

If someone will never get an EV, so be it, but it doesn't mitigate the fact that it works for many people as seen by they MY being the best selling car in the world.

If those on this thread want to discuss the pros/cons of an EV, I am happy to discuss. But this thread essentially is a Anti EV vent session and many have become hostile/nonsensical.

If this thread is just a vent session on whatever makes them hate EVs, then it would have died on page 1.

Kansas Kid said:

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texagbeliever said:

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Kansas Kid said:

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texagbeliever said:

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beerad12man said:

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I didn't say that, though. I said it's the government that makes us hate it. Not EV drivers. Yet we breathe down each others throats over it. Which is what always happens due to government

---

The ignorance of the EV drivers who don't realize the substantial subsidies given to their luxury automobiles while crippling the affordable car market does irk me though.

So I personally dislike both government (California especially) and many EV drivers. If people rejected the initiative to buy EVs at all that would kill the mandates.

---

I am curious if you and others have the same issue with all the subsidies thrown into home ownership at the cost of apartments. Those subsidies include 1) lower property tax rates, 2) mortgage interest deductions, 3) property tax deductions, 4) lower interest rates because of government programs like FHA and government support of mortgages, 5) no capital gains tax on the sale of a home, etc. Homes also require a lot more electricity than apartments so if you are worried about the grid (I'm not), you should also oppose new home construction.

If you have issues with EV drivers because they buy a car impacted by government policy, you should have a similar issue with home buyers as well. Funny how I don't see any Texags topics on this massive government handout. I for one would get rid of the housing subsidies as well as the EV ones.

---

No I don't think those are a contradiction. I also think your arguments are flawed:
1. Apartments will have lower property tax because of their efficiency of the space they occupy. So in a way you could argue that people in apartments actually create a higher burden on people who own a home because they are not paying their proportional cost of property taxes for the resources they consume.
2. Okay. Not a big needle mover.
3. Okay. Not a big needle mover
4. Not a big fan of those. Though Subsidized housing is also prevalent in the apartment space as well.
5. Why would you pay capital gains tax on the sale of a home? Unless you are a corporation looking to invest.

So to sum it up your comparison doesn't work.

---

1). The tax rate is higher in almost all jurisdictions so if the value of a home is the same as an apartment, you pay less on the home. Saying someone with a $1mm home pays more than apartment owner is comparing apples and oranges. Apartments are rarely worth 1mm
Let me help you a little more. Let's say a house has $1,000 in property taxes while an apartment pays $500.
If you have 100 houses the collection of taxes is $100,000. If you have 50 houses and 50 apartments the collection of taxes is only $75,000. You are still serving the same number of people so the city then needs to raise property taxes to get the $100k. To get to the same tax collection, property taxes would need to increase by ~33% across the board. Now people in houses pay $1,350 while apartments only $650. So a $350 increase vs a $150. Wow home owners really come out ahead here...not.

2) The mortgage interest deduction is more per year for many people than the one time tax credit for buying an EV especially because many no longer qualify. For a $400k loan at 7 % (today's rate), the write off starts at $28k which is worth almost $8k in lower taxes for someone in the 28% tax bracket. If you think this isn't a big needle mover, then why do you think EV subsidies are? The total for this issue is estimated at $60-70B per year to the US treasury and additional amounts to states with income taxes. This factors into the cost of the home. Knowing that there is this tax advantage increases the demand for the home which drives up the price. If you took away this tax benefit it would decrease the value of the home. In the end owning a home vs an apartment is a completely different means of living then ICE vs EV as a car. With home adding much more societal benefits.
3) Assuming SALT deduction limit isn't renewed, the value of a property tax write off for someone in Texas will also be more annually than the one time credit is worth and similar to the above mortgage write off. With Salt caps, it is lower.
5) Name another asset that capital gains aren't paid when the asset is sold? Apartment complex owners most certainly have to pay them.
Great, apartment complex owners are trying to make money. Not provide housing. They also take things like asset depreciation and capital costs to offset their margins to reduce their tax liability.

So to sum it up, you are right, my comparison doesn't work because the total amount for homeowners dwarfs EV subsidies. They all need to die.

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Look I'm not arguing as someone who is pro complexity which many of the "benefits" fall under for home ownership. What is clearly missing is that apartments can drive down the cost of homes by providing an abundant supply of living creating less demand. EV quota regulations act in the opposite fashion making fewer affordable cars available.

Medaggie said:

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What most don't understand is the current EV credits were done by Biden to make sure the Big 3 survives because they otherwise are not competitive. It was a bone thrown at the UAW to keep them afloat. Which essentially props up the ICE business which is how the legacy makes money.

So what the credits really do is to prop up the ICE business and help them transition.

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How much are those credits helping (to pick one example) Ford again, who is losing…$130K on each EV sold in Q1, as it 'transitions' to this 'new' (actually over 100 year old) wunder drive train our government demands be adopted, produced, and sold?

And no, I won't dig thru all 130 pages of various discussions to dig out who said what about calculating a cost for a BEV vs. an ICE vehicle 'alternative.' To the Evangelists, there is no fair comparator. The EV is just a religious dogma. And yes, many, many comments have been made by them about the tax credits they happily took. Everyone reading this thread knows it, and not a single one of them disclaimed/otherwise asserted they declined to benefit from the subsidies offered.

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And yes, many, many comments have been made by them about the tax credits they happily took.

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Just making up things as usual when the owners here flat out tell you they didn't get tax credits.


And it's not a dogma. It's a ****ing car. We like it because it's fast, fun to drive, easy to own, and convenient. But keep telling people why they like something.

Bought two EVs and didn't qualify for a tax credit on either.

I think my favorite is Nortex insisting that I got a tax credit for a car in 2022 that didn't even qualify for tax credits. But he's totally researched this ya'll.

Teslag said:

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Quote:

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And yes, many, many comments have been made by them about the tax credits they happily took.

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Just making up things as usual when the owners here flat out tell you they didn't get tax credits.

And it's not a dogma. It's a ****ing car. We like it because it's fast, fun to drive, easy to own, and convenient. But keep telling people why they like something.

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My last post here today so you can whine all you want but none of you can meet your evidentiary standard and show when you declined to take an offered subsidy. Shocking.

I don't have to tell you or anyone your opinions, your abject refusal to address, let alone accept the political reasons "we" detest these vehicles being pushed and inability to reason thru a logical rebuttal is plain for all to see, just as much as blind faith and adherence to dogma in other matters is.

Have a nice day. Thx and gig 'em. Btho whoever the Ags play tonight in Hoover.

I think you've touched on something. The walleyed unbridled enthusiasm for EVs on this board is indeed very much like a religion. It's amazing.

Quote:

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one of you can meet your evidentiary standard and show when you declined to take an offered subsidy. Shocking.

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You want us to show proof we didn't accept a tax credit on a car that was ineligible to receive credits? Good lord. And you pretend to be knowledgeable on this subject.

Quote:

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I don't have to tell you or anyone your opinions, your abject refusal to address, let alone accept the political reasons "we" detest these vehicles being pushed and inability to reason thru a logical rebuttal is plain for all to see, just as much as blind faith and adherence to dogma in other matters is.

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We are all well aware you hate Teslas that are made in American factories by American workers because of China. You tell us every day when you use your chinese made device to connect to the internet with chinese made hardware, on the internet using chinese made network gear surrounded in your home full of chinese goods while wearing chinese made clothing before you drive somehwere in your chinese slave labor made Audi.

We've all never walked a day in your steadfast political objecting shoes (that were probably made in china).

The EVangelists have always bragged about their net costs whenever possible about credits etc. Or advising folks to handle their own high voltage electrical work. The condescending arrogance is…sippish, in a word.

"Just get the shot/wear a mask."

notex said:

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The EVangelists have always bragged about their net costs whenever possible about credits etc. Or advising folks to handle their own high voltage electrical work. The condescending arrogance is…sippish, in a word.

"Just get the shot/wear a mask."

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Again, how does someone get a tax credit for a car that isn't offered?

techno-ag said:

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I think you've touched on something. The walleyed unbridled enthusiasm for EVs on this board is indeed very much like a religion. It's amazing.

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As is the hate. More so in fact. The EV owners on this thread regularly share their limitations. It's the haters like yourself that can't bring yourself to be remotely objective.

Ford's Mach-E (their best selling EV) doesn't qualify for tax credits. In order to compete with Tesla's Model Y RWD they have to price the vehicle below the price of the Tesla to capture some of the "don't qualify for the credit at all" market.

The Lightning does, but you're really talking about a $70,000 vehicle for someone that makes <$150,000 for a single filer, or <$300,000 joint. That's a ~$1500 car payment, with probably another $200/mo in insurance. Don't think you're pulling many tax dollars with those stats.


The vast majority of EVs do not qualify for credits It is actually easier for a manufacturer to make a PHEV that qualifies for tax credits than it is for them to make an EV that does.

techno-ag said:

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I think you've touched on something. The walleyed unbridled enthusiasm for EVs on this board is indeed very much like a religion. It's amazing.

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I think you've touched on something. The walleyed unbridled hatred for EVs on this board is indeed very much like a religion. It's amazing.

I'm leasing an EV right now. A lot of fun to drive and I theoretically don't have to deal with any of the long term issues. Also they were basically handing them out like free candy to get them off the lot.

hph6203 said:

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Ford's Mach-E (their best selling EV) doesn't qualify for tax credits. In order to compete with Tesla's Model Y RWD they have to price the vehicle below the price of the Tesla to capture some of the "don't qualify for the credit at all" market.

The Lightning does, but you're really talking about a $70,000 vehicle for someone that makes <$150,000 for a single filer, or <$300,000 joint. That's a ~$1500 car payment, with probably another $200/mo in insurance. Don't think you're pulling many tax dollars with those stats.


The vast majority of EVs do not qualify for credits It is actually easier for a manufacturer to make a PHEV that qualifies for tax credits than it is for them to make an EV that does.

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And not to mention that Teslas didn't even qualify for a tax credit from about 2019 until the end of 2022 which Nortex seems to be painfully unaware of.

Aggies1322 said:

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I'm leasing an EV right now. A lot of fun to drive and I theoretically don't have to deal with any of the long term issues. Also they were basically handing them out like free candy to get them off the lot.

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Welcome to the Church!

hph6203 said:

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Ford's Mach-E (their best selling EV) doesn't qualify for tax credits. In order to compete with Tesla's Model Y RWD they have to price the vehicle below the price of the Tesla to capture some of the "don't qualify for the credit at all" market.

The Lightning does, but you're really talking about a $70,000 vehicle for someone that makes <$150,000 for a single filer, or <$300,000 joint. That's a ~$1500 car payment, with probably another $200/mo in insurance. Don't think you're pulling many tax dollars with those stats.

The vast majority of EVs do not qualify for credits It is actually easier for a manufacturer to make a PHEV that qualifies for tax credits than it is for them to make an EV that does.

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Consumer Tax credits have zero impact on manufacturer profits from the sale. That the Mach-E uses a Chicom battery is not a big surprise.

That Tesla was out of them when some bought them (used them up first) doesn't mean any of the EVangelists turned down a tax credit offer to subsidize their prized cars. The games around the credits/subsidies are absurd. Tesla itself still pimps various credits/'incentives.'

Then tell us. What tax credits were available to Texas buyers from 2019 to 2022.

Why should someone not take a credit available even if they don't agree with them? I believe we should have a flat tax rate with no deductions except one if you fog a mirror. Does that mean I shouldn't deduct my mortgage or charitable deductions while I try to get elected politicians that agree with me?

I also don't agree with social security as the greatest Ponzi scheme of all time but I will collect it if it is available at the time.