Teslag said:

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techno-ag said:

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So, no link?

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You need a link to see that consumers don't always choose the lowest priced item? Really?

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Because he knows he can't prove his position he tries to go with a diversion as usual. Just like he didn't comment on my post about the dangers of gasoline and diesel as known carcinogens vs an unproven risk about EMF which is around us all the time.

Teslag said:

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techno-ag said:

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So, no link?

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You need a link to see that consumers don't always choose the lowest priced item? Really?

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Hey, he brought it up. But he can't back up anything he puts out there. It's just feelz I guess. Why wouldn't those ChiComs buy the more expensive American company product? It just feels like they would.

What? BYD is now the biggest EV manufacturer? But but … Tesla!

Again do you really need a link to see that people don't always choose the cheapest option?

Teslag said:

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Again do you really need a link to see that people don't always choose the cheapest option?

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Yes. I stated domestic consumers will prefer a domestic manufacturer over an American one at ten percent lower price.

He refuted that despite all data showing otherwise.

I can provide ample links for my point.

https://investing.com/news/stock-market-news/byd-weekly-sales-in-china-hit-a-ytd-high-tesla-sees-11-wow-decline-3439867

And from my initial link, even:

Quote:

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Like other EV makers, Tesla has been struggling with falling sales in the face of intense competition from Chinese brands.

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Yet all I've seen is hand waving. Still waiting on that link, but I know it's not coming.

This is almost a parody commercial

Teslag said:

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techno-ag said:

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So, no link?

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You need a link to see that consumers don't always choose the lowest priced item? Really?

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Yesterday you were perturbed that lower price options were available.

techno-ag said:

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Teslag said:

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Again do you really need a link to see that people don't always choose the cheapest option?

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Yes. I stated domestic consumers will prefer a domestic manufacturer over an American one at ten percent lower price.

He refuted that despite all data showing otherwise.

I can provide ample links for my point.

https://investing.com/news/stock-market-news/byd-weekly-sales-in-china-hit-a-ytd-high-tesla-sees-11-wow-decline-3439867

And from my initial link, even:

Quote:

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Like other EV makers, Tesla has been struggling with falling sales in the face of intense competition from Chinese brands.

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Yet all I've seen is hand waving. Still waiting on that link, but I know it's not coming.

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Your claim was that Tesla would lose their "remaining sales". That link shows they have simply declined. Do you have something that supports a total eradication of all Tesla sales per your claim?

So… no link?

I didn't make a claim. You did. And you didn't support it

Teslag said:

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I didn't make a claim. You did. And you didn't support it

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What? Look up a few posts. I just backed up my claim with verifiable facts and links.

Wowzers you people are true fanatics. I forget that's what the word "fan" is short for.

Just take the L and go on. You're embarrassing yourself here.

But you didn't. None of those show teslas sales going to 0

Teslag said:

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But you didn't. None of those show teslas sales going to 0

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Ok fine. If you want to take my comment "so long to their remaining Chinese sales" as literal, absolute, AND immediate as in right now, today … then ya got me. You win. Gosh. I salute you.

Totally unsurprising that the human RSS feed believes that a link is necessary to understand basic ass human behavior and decisions.

So.. no link? Just feelz. I see.

Tesla hasn't been the cheapest vehicle option in the country since it's inception, but you don't have a conception of continuation of time so you don't understand that the fact Nio launching a lower cost option is nothing new in the country.


It's like saying that every consumer is going to drive a Toyota Corolla and you're pretending like it's an intelligent argument.

hph6203 said:

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Tesla hasn't been the cheapest vehicle option in the country since it's inception, but you don't have a conception of continuation of time so you don't understand that the fact Nio launching a lower cost option is nothing new in the country.


It's like saying that every consumer is going to drive a Toyota Corolla and you're pretending like it's an intelligent argument.

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You're saying, "Tesla sales aren't falling in China. The locals aren't buying cheaper domestic products."

And yet … there are no links to back up this sentiment.

techno-ag said:

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hph6203 said:

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Tesla hasn't been the cheapest vehicle option in the country since it's inception, but you don't have a conception of continuation of time so you don't understand that the fact Nio launching a lower cost option is nothing new in the country.


It's like saying that every consumer is going to drive a Toyota Corolla and you're pretending like it's an intelligent argument.

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You're saying, "Tesla sales aren't falling in China. The locals aren't buying cheaper domestic products."

And yet … there are no links to back up this sentiment.

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Fine, here is a link showing young consumer preferring foreign brands in many cases. Are there consumers that prefer to buy local, absolutely just like in virtually every country but you obviously haven't spent any time in China like I have where many people in the major cities seek out foreign brands especially in luxury purchases. Why do you think Chinese consumers are so different from the rest of the world where people don't just buy based on price?

"Chinese shoppers have developed distrust for domestic products due to safety incidents, counterfeit goods and low regulation levels. That's why their growing awareness of foreign brands and products has caused them to look overseas for quality."

"Chinese millennials continue to seek high brand value and spend big when they find it. "

https://www.wordbank.com/blog/market-insights/chinese-shoppers-prefer-international-brands/

PS. Your simplistic view also assumes Tesla won't respond if price is an issue and you did say there go the rest of the sales not there will be another 5-10% drop which I could believe if Tesla can't match on price.

Yeah, never said that. All I've said is that the existence of a single lower cost option is not predictive of significant negative impacts on sales, which is what you're predicting.


The problem with your arguments here is they're counter to your entire comments on BEVs in general. That they're going to get more expensive, and that they're doomed to fail. And yet in the same thread you're arguing that a specific manufacturer is going to fail, because other manufacturers are introducing progressively lower priced vehicles.

hph6203 said:

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Yeah, never said that. All I've said is that the existence of a single lower cost option is not predictive of significant negative impacts on sales, which is what you're predicting.


The problem with your arguments here is they're counter to your entire comments on BEVs in general. That they're going to get more expensive, and that they're doomed to fail. And yet in the same thread you're arguing that a specific manufacturer is going to fail, because other manufacturers are introducing progressively lower priced vehicles.

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My comments get misconstrued all the time. I have repeatedly asserted I like Musk and have no desire to see Tesla fail. But I am amazed at the hand waving over obvious things like falling sales and QC problems.

And the history of vehicles is higher prices as mandated safety options get added. Tesla's higher non union margins have let them lower prices to combat falling market share, but that wreaked havoc on Hertz and the used market, shooting Tesla in the foot.

Amazingly though there is great reluctance to even acknowledge issues like this. All we hear is how Tesla has the best selling car in the world, etc.

The cognitive dissonance and general combativeness to the facts is quite remarkable.

Your problem is you confuse the fact you repost a billion articles for your actual knowledge of a topic. Which is why you can do something like post that Nio is introducing a lower cost option is going to substantially detrimental to Tesla's sales, when the market already had competition at lower prices than Tesla.

You don't know that Tesla makes substantially more per vehicle at the Model Y pricing than any of their competitors.

You don't know that while BYD may have had 68,500 BEV sales last week, that the vast majority of those vehicles are in no way in competition with the Model Y, because they are not even in the same realm of pricing as the Model Y. Almost all of BYD's sales are <$20,000 vehicles, with a lot of them being <$15,000. They are not in competition at those price points with a vehicle that costs $33,000.


You have a misperception that because information was conveyed to you that the information was actually attempting to actually inform you, rather than what it actually is, more often than not, is an attempt to get you to do exactly what you do. Share it with other people, because the information is in some way enticing.

It's why you get "Teenagers die in Tesla crash." as a headline because they know that Tesla will get people like you who, despite your protests, don't like EVs to send it to people whereas any other death by a driver would MAYBE have the vehicle manufacturer buried in the 3rd paragraph that no one is going to read.

That was a beatdown.

Used EV nightmares:

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Now, Hodge's piece includes the testimony of Bijay Pandey, via the original item at NYMag:

Quote:

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[A]lmost immediately, there were problems. After getting a temporary title, he [Pandey] found the car wasn't reading voltage correctly. Soon, a body shop found a quarter-size hole in the undercarriage he hadn't seen before, which led to revelations of deeper issues inside. 'The high-voltage battery pack is damaged and could cause extreme safety concerns,' a Tesla technician texted him. Because the hole was 'exterior damage,' it wasn't covered by the warranty, which meant a $13,078.58 repair bill. Hertz said that it would swap the car for Pandey, but for about two months he waited making $500 payments on his auto loan before getting a replacement. 'I realized why they were trying to get rid of those Teslas,' he said. 'If anything happens to a Tesla, then the bill is too high.'

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Pandey can't be the brightest guy, because Hertz explicitly cited repair costs as a reason for selling off the fleet, a fact which was covered in the media for months, but nonetheless, his E.V. ownership experience highlights serious (safety and financial) concerns.

It is clear that damage to the battery can occur, and a small hole can cost five-figures to repair; now consider road debris, or little bits of gravel or rock kicked up into the undercarriage at high speeds. Especially when you think about these cars having been rentals, in which drivers are less concerned with wear and tear because it's not their vehicle, and they're not the ones paying to maintain it.

And, what about this: E.V.s are typically purchased by wealthy leftists, and where do wealthy leftists largely live? Well, along the coasts, and all the sand and saltwater air that comes with living near the ocean, which means rust, and rust means holes in car metal.

Now, wealthy leftists don't have a problem forking over $15k in car repairs, but when a hole in the battery means a great risk of thermal runaway, it's still a safety concern.

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Yep.

Yep. These things are not good for the middle & lower classes.

techno-ag said:

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Yep. These things are not good for the middle & lower classes.

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They are a perfect choice for some and not for others. There is no one size fits all when it comes to cars

About those used Hertz Teslas. Many of them are in deplorable shape.

Quote:

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The rest may prove even more difficult to sell, with prospective buyers being scared away by high mileage and glaring problems with the Tesla rentals that could cost a fortune to fix - an ironic fate considering EVs were once sold as being incredibly cheap to maintain.

One buyer, who picked up a 2022 Model 3 with 70,000 miles on it for just $25,000, immediately regretted his decision, with a body shop discovering a sizeable hole in the bottom of the vehicle that was causing damage to the battery - a $13,000 bill that wasn't covered under warranty.

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https://futurism.com/man-buys-used-tesla-hertz-issue

Good message at 45 sec

So some moron bought a damaged rental car and that's an indictment on EV's?


Don't buy former rental vehicles, ice or EV.

It's really more of an indictment of Hertz.

techno-ag said:

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It's really more of an indictment of Hertz.

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My wife worked for a rental car company back in the day. Her one consistent comment was to never buy a used rental car. They were always driven like they were stolen and damage was covered up.

Yup, fleet vehicle history avoid like the plague.

I plugged the VIN into google, and pressed images. 5YJ3E1EA7NF190068

Look at what we have here... This carwash in a pretty major accident. It was most likely a Hertz rental vehicle. Hertz cars, like all rental car companies retain clean titles after they have been wrecked… pic.twitter.com/jAJlY9CIuw

— Winston (@TESLA_winston) April 19, 2024

Kansas Kid said:

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techno-ag said:

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It's really more of an indictment of Hertz.

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My wife worked for a rental car company back in the day. Her one consistent comment was to never buy a used rental car. They were always driven like they were stolen and damage was covered up.

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techno-ag said:

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It's really more of an indictment of Hertz.

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Not really. The repair costs driving Hertz to surrender on the EV boondoggle, are representative of the class of used EV vehicles. Hertz actually stood behind it for instance and swapped to another vehicle for one guy, as the article stated. I'm not by any means an advocate for buying a used rental car of any kind, but the disproportionate risks (both financial and safety) to buying a used EV from anyone is the bigger issue.

Buying a used EV is perfectly fine. Just don't be a moron when purchasing. Like buying a rental for instance.

I'd say the older EV market is just immature. There are very few EVs that are 8+ years old. If I were purchasing a used vehicle in that age or price range I'd go ICE. That said, I wouldn't worry much about purchasing new now because of resale market in 8 or 10 years. There will be millions of older EVs by then. The after market will mature and companies like Tesla will see increasing value in providing refurbishment or cheaper battery replacements as time moves on. I could also see them simply gobbling up older EVs to essentially recycle them once they hit a certain price point. The raw materials in an EV are more valuable than in an ICE.